Higher hp, power to torque ratio in American cars

[Tom76]

Most online races are governed by pp which leaves many cars at a disadvantage as their horsepower and torque are even while some cars have higher horsepower to torque ratio.

For example but not exact the 2014 Corvette will have 500 hp and 500 tq weighting 1250 kg at 550 pp.
The Mazda rx 8 will have 550 hp and 400 tq weighting 1100 kg at 550 pp which means the rx 8 will have a huge advantage over the corvette even though both are 550 pp.
This seems to be the case with most of the Japanese cars having a higher horsepower to torque ratio compared to the american cars.

Would be nice if we had the option when doing engine upgrades to be able to choose a horsepower or torque engine upgrade kind of like the different turbo's for low ,mid or high rpm.

Sure some online races are governed by hp and weight which helps even the field but most races are done with pp. Plus seasonals are all pp governed which dictates which car you are going to be using if you want to post a fast time as the pp system gives cars with a higher hp to tq ratio an advantage.

 

[Famine]

Most online races are governed by pp which leaves many cars at a disadvantage as their horsepower and torque are even while some cars have higher horsepower to torque ratio.

For example but not exact the 2014 Corvette will have 500 hp and 500 tq weighting 1250 kg at 550 pp.
The Mazda rx 8 will have 550 hp and 400 tq weighting 1100 kg at 550 pp which means the rx 8 will have a huge advantage over the corvette even though both are 550 pp.
This seems to be the case with most of the Japanese cars having a higher horsepower to torque ratio compared to the american cars.

Would be nice if we had the option when doing engine upgrades to be able to choose a horsepower or torque engine upgrade kind of like the different turbo's for low ,mid or high rpm.

Sure some online races are governed by hp and weight which helps even the field but most races are done with pp. Plus seasonals are all pp governed which dictates which car you are going to be using if you want to post a fast time as the pp system gives cars with a higher hp to tq ratio an advantage.

But horsepower and torque are not independent of each other - horsepower (in hp) is torque (in lbfft) x engine speed/5252. Adjust the torque curve and the power curve changes...

 

[Tom76]

So are you saying it is not possible to build a v 8 small block race engine that produces a higher horsepower to torque ratio?
All race engines like nascar or f1 pretty much all racing engines it is desirable to have and do have higher hp to tq ratio that makes peak hp power at close to redline.
Nascar engines are around 750 hp and 500 tq while an f1 engine is 800 hp and 200tq
In the game we have the ability to mod our cars with stage 1,2,3 engine,intake manifold,exhaust manifold,3 different exhaust systems,computer,low mid and high rpm turbo's turning our engine into race engine's.
The majority of cars follow the higher hp to tq ratio like the japanese,ferrari's,ruf's ect..but not the american cars it seems which leaves them at a disadvantage when races are pp based due to them having in some cases higher tq to hp ratio's.
If I am building a race car no matter who makes it I would build the engine to have a higher hp to tq ratio like most race cars do so it would be nice if we had the option to choose like have stage 1,2,3 engine for hp and stage 1,2,3 engine for tq.

 

[Grayfox]

If you want torque, go for a diesel car.

 

[Tom76]

Lol no I want more hp. I am saying that most American cars which I prefer to drive are at a disadvantage due to them having near equal hp to tq ratio when racing pp governed races online because most japanese,ferrari's ect have more hp then tq which gives them more hp for the same pp rating as I stated in the example above.
Look at the fastest driver's on the seasonal events and what cars they are using.They are not using them because they like them they use them because the seasonal race's,time trial's are pp governed which gives cars with a higher hp to tq ratio an advantage as pp is based off hp,tq and weight.

 

[Grayfox]

You do know you really want more torque.
It is why the 2014 F1 cars are faster with less displacement, they have more torque.

 

[Tornado]

If I could do this in a GT game:



I would probably come damn close to never playing another racing game again. That game had 15 cars or something and I put dozens of hours into just screwing with engine tuning on each of them.

 

[Tom76]

You do know you really want more torque.
It is why the 2014 F1 cars are faster with less displacement, they have more torque.

You got it backwards Grayfox. F1 cars have way more hp then torque like 800hp and 200 tq from a small displacement 2.4 l v 8 engine that revs to 20 000 rpm.
Nascar's are like 750hp and 500 tq from a 5.7 l v 8 reving to 10 000 rpm.
Again these are not exact number but just for comparison.

 

[Tornado]

He's talking about the torque differences between 2014 cars and the 2013 cars.

 

[Not_A_Guest]

You got it backwards Grayfox. F1 cars have way more hp then torque like 800hp and 200 tq from a small displacement 2.4 l v 8 engine that revs to 20 000 rpm.
Nascar's are like 750hp and 500 tq from a 5.7 l v 8 reving to 10 000 rpm.
Again these are not exact number but just for comparison.

...
Today's F1 cars are still fast as hell because they have buttloads of torque compared to the old cars.

Plus, torque is directly related to power out put as Famine says. Can't change one without changing the other...
You want to beat a Japanese car that's better than your car? You have a few options:

• Get a different car with a good tune
• Practice driving 'till you can outrun Jann Mardenborough
• Or just drive for fun instead of wins. A close race is a whole lot more fun than a race where you win just because you have a better car.
• Race in a league with balanced car tunes not based on PP measurements.

 

[Tom76]

If I could do this in a GT game:



I would probably come damn close to never playing another racing game again. That game had 15 cars or something and I put dozens of hours into just screwing with engine tuning on each of them.

It would be sweet if we had more control over building the engines in the game.
I use to play nhra drag racing 2 and you could build you're own engine.You could choose the bore,stroke,number of cyl,valve size,cam spec's,compression ratio,number of carb's plus the cfm's of the carb even the kind of fuel you want to use like alcohol,nitromethane or even use half gas and half alcohol.You could adjust everything on the engine.If you went to crazy the engine would overheat or blow up as soon as you reved it up lol.I would mess with it for hours trying to get the most hp and get it to last the quarter mile before it blew.

 

[Not_A_Guest]

It would be sweet if we had more control over building the engines in the game.
I use to play nhra drag racing 2 and you could build you're own engine.You could choose the bore,stroke,number of cyl,valve size,cam spec's,compression ratio,number of carb's plus the cfm's of the carb even the kind of fuel you want to use like alcohol,nitromethane or even use half gas and half alcohol.You could adjust everything on the engine.If you went to crazy the engine would overheat or blow up as soon as you reved it up lol.I would mess with it for hours trying to get the most hp and get it to last the quarter mile before it blew.

That's a whole different matter you're talking about there.

 

[Famine]

So are you saying it is not possible to build a v 8 small block race engine that produces a higher horsepower to torque ratio?
All race engines like nascar or f1 pretty much all racing engines it is desirable to have and do have higher hp to tq ratio that makes peak hp power at close to redline.
Nascar engines are around 750 hp and 500 tq while an f1 engine is 800 hp and 200tq
In the game we have the ability to mod our cars with stage 1,2,3 engine,intake manifold,exhaust manifold,3 different exhaust systems,computer,low mid and high rpm turbo's turning our engine into race engine's.
The majority of cars follow the higher hp to tq ratio like the japanese,ferrari's,ruf's ect..but not the american cars it seems which leaves them at a disadvantage when races are pp based due to them having in some cases higher tq to hp ratio's.
If I am building a race car no matter who makes it I would build the engine to have a higher hp to tq ratio like most race cars do so it would be nice if we had the option to choose like have stage 1,2,3 engine for hp and stage 1,2,3 engine for tq.

Peak power and torque can be wildly different, but engine power at a given engine speed is always torque x engine speed/5252.

You can't adjust torque without power changing. It can peak wherever you want and at wherever you want, but the curves are directly linked to one another - they will not adjust independently.

 

[Tom76]

Peak power and torque can be wildly different, but engine power at a given engine speed is always torque x engine speed/5252.

You can't adjust torque without power changing. It can peak wherever you want and at wherever you want, but the curves are directly linked to one another - they will not adjust independently.

Yes I understand that but that does not mean we cant build an engine that is intended to operate at high rpm with peak power occuring at redline that has a higher hp to tq ratio does it.
Nascar does it.
F1 does it.
nhra does it.
All types of racing have higher hp to tq ratio.

The pp system is flawed in this game and gives some cars an advantage over others but allowing us to choose a higher rpm,higher hp to tq ratio engine staging option it would even it out.
As I have say most racing engines have a higher hp to tq ratio in real life just like the japanese, ferrari's,ruf ect in this game so why not the american cars?

 

[Famine]

Yes I understand that but that does not mean we cant build an engine that is intended to operate at high rpm with peak power occuring at redline that has a higher hp to tq ratio does it.

I do wish you'd stop referring to "hp to tq ratio".

The concept of different "power to torque ratios" is intrinsically silly, because the one is the function of the other. What you're talking about is the peak power to peak torque ratio - which means all you're actually talking about is the torque curve and rev range.

Nascar does it.
F1 does it.
nhra does it.
All types of racing have higher hp to tq ratio.

As I have say most racing engines have a higher hp to tq ratio in real life just like the japanese, ferrari's,ruf ect in this game so why not the american cars?

All you're saying here is that cars with relatively low torque peaks in the mid range that rev high have more power than cars with relatively high torque peaks in the low range that don't rev high. That's just how the engines are designed and you're not going to change an engine's characteristics unless you have complete and total control over the dimensions and materials of every single component. What you're talking about is building engines from scratch - literally blueprinting your own engine. I think that's quite some way off for a Gran Turismo game.

However, many of the NA tuning options offer the higher engine speeds you're talking about - though in many cases they also artifically increase torque up over 100lbfft/litre, which isn't happening on a non forced induction unit in the real world. Even the last naturally aspirated F1 cars were only in the low 200lbfft range, at 90lbfft/litre or so.

The pp system is flawed in this game and gives some cars an advantage over others but allowing us to choose a higher rpm,higher hp to tq ratio engine staging option it would even it out.

Yes, the system isn't perfect, but PP includes many factors, power and torque (curves, not peak) being merely amongst them. There's also an intrinsic boost to PP from having a newer car - check out the PP difference between the 2006 Honda S2000 and any of the 2000-2003 models with identical stats...

The base value of PP is tied to the chassis, modified by power (curve), torque (curve) and weight, and this will account for some of the difference you see comparing a 2014 Corvette to a 2003 or 2007 RX-8.

But you're still not going to be able to adjust power and torque independently of one another. If you want more power, you have to increase the torque and make it rev higher. An RX-8's rotary spins to 10,000rpm (reliably) - that's why it has comparatively large power high up the rev range for the relatively low (and mid-range) torque, compared to the bigger torque of the 8,000rpm Corvette.

 

[Tom76]

I did not say I wanted to adjust hp or tq independently. I said a hp or tq engine upgrade like the low,mid and high rpm turbo's would be nice as I have said many times.
Yes that is the title of the op but only because of a lack of how to word what I am trying to say so I changed the title to better reflect that.
I have explained what it is that I would like to see in the game which is a higher hp to tq ratio in american cars which would even the field when race's are governed by pp.
It's not like it is impossible to do to a v 8 but rather quite common it race engine's to have higher hp then tq.
As I have already said the majority of racing engines in nascar,f1, drag racing have a higher percentage of hp or power to the amount of tq just like the honda's,mazda's,ferrari's,ruf's pretty much the majority of cars in the game except for the majority of american cars which seem to be very close in hp to tq.
When we buy the stage 1,2,3 engine tuning we are changing some of the internal parts of the engine like pistons,valves,cam's,higher compression ratio,stiffer valve springs ect in essence blueprinting the motor to rev higher and faster so you would think the american cars would have a higher hp to tq like the rest of the cars.
I don't know why the maker of the game chose to have the american cars with even hp and tq putting them at a disadvantage against the majority of the cars in the game due to the way the pp system works.
Any engine can be built to have more hp to tq or more tq to hp.Concidering this is a racing game and when we perform all the racing mods to a car to make it a racing car it would have the same effect with all cars just like real racing cars.Really we should not need to adjust hp or tq independently or have a seperate option in engine staging it should just follow the same trend as the rest of the cars and not giving some cars an advantage due to the pp system.
It would not really matter if not for the fact that career mode,seasonal events ,time trials are all pp based so in order to be competitive we are forced to use certain cars.
We game the pp system to be able to use the lightest car with the most hp for the allowed pp.
Me being Canadian,North American I prefer north american car's.I don't use car's because they have an advantage due to the pp system like alot of people do I drive the cars I like to drive and it is annoying that the car's I like are at a disadvantage.
Maybe I should have put this thread in the whining and crying section lol.

 

[Wide Boy]

Its fairy basic & you quoted some classic examples.
Generalising
Big block engines as in large displacement produce lots of torque and normally a wider spread of it.
Smaller engines tend to be more highly tuned/ rev higher so produce less torque in relation to HP.
The RX-8 you quoted is a wankel (rotary) engine with low torque to HP characteristics.
Also applies to the 2 other engines you mentioned namely NASCAR & F1, the NASCAR produces way more torque per HP than the F1 because its a big block engine.

American cars use large displacement engines which is why they have the characteristics they do in game & your premise is wrong less torque would probably make them lap slower.
In simple terms torque is acceleration & HP top speed, the heavier the car the more torque it needs & can transfer to the road. Again NASCAR vs F1 example the first needs all that torque because its a lot heavier.

So if you want to reduce the torque to HP ratio & still accelerate well you need a lighter car all other things being equal, so your talking most Japanese European cars.
However heavy Japanese European cars often have high torque to HP ratios because they need it due to the weight.

To put what your saying in perspective the Corvette & Skyline 2 of the fastest cars in the world from A to B both share the same characteristic of a high torque to HP ratio. They also have the chassis that lets these cars transfer that torque to the road.
If you look at virtually any race car in game other than the entry level stuff contrary to what you say I think you will find they nearly all have a good torque to HP ratio, the exceptions being the very lightweight stuff.

I do agree torque is only your friend up to the point it overloads the chassis, then you need good throttle control to use it.
In game terms high torque cars with a wide power band (normally big displacement engines) can be a handful as short shifting still lands you in the torque curve testing my limitations as a driver.

The PP system is broken but I think its weight it factors the worst, hence the reason most people slap weight reduction 3 on their tunes, what your asking for though I cant see helping with lap times.

You got it backwards Grayfox. F1 cars have way more hp then torque like 800hp and 200 tq from a small displacement 2.4 l v 8 engine that revs to 20 000 rpm.
Nascar's are like 750hp and 500 tq from a 5.7 l v 8 reving to 10 000 rpm.
Again these are not exact number but just for comparison.

Sorry noticed this before you bring up that the F1 car is faster with less torque the engines are designed to suit the car.

F1 struggles to transfer its torque due to its lightweight, indeed I think in 1st & possibly 2nd it cant use it all because the car is not producing enough down force to let the tyres transfer it.

If you look at torque to weight they are fairly similar so ignoring other things the F1 is quicker because it has to shift less weight.
In game terms if you want a competitive car I would look at the power to weight ratio above other factors listed.

 

[Famine]

I did not say I wanted to adjust hp or tq independently. I said a hp or tq engine upgrade like the low,mid and high rpm turbo's would be nice as I have said many times.

That's what Engine Tuning stages 1-3 do - increase power more than they increase torque.

I've grabbed a Honda Fit RS '10. It has a 1.5 litre straight four producing 117hp and 112lbfft - what you'd term as a 0.957 "hp to tq ratio" - with the torque arriving at 5,000rpm and the power at 6,500rpm.

Add the "Sports Computer" and the figures shift to 126hp and 116lbfft - what you'd term as a 0.921 "hp to tq ratio" - with the torque arriving a little later at 5,200rpm and the power at 6,700rpm. That's a reduction in the ratios between the peak figures, but the car has more torque throughout and, because it revs higher too, more power.

Add Engine Tuning stage 1 and what happens? 142hp at 6,800rpm and 130lbfft at 5,300rpm - again, more torque across the range and more revs provides more power, but the peak torque has dropped to 91.5% of the peak power. Same with Engine Tuning stage 2 - 154hp at 6,900rpm and 139lbfft at 5,400rpm and it's now 90%. Stage 3 gives 162hp at 7,000rpm and 143lbfft at 5,500rpm and 88%.

Why? You're changing components that affect the rotating mass of the engine which means less mass to drive (increasing output torque) and allows the engine to spin faster (increasing power). Since power is torque * engine speed, any modification of torque combined with a modification of engine speed leads to a far greater increase in power than in torque.

Turbochargers (and superchargers) increase torque by increasing compression and effective swept volume, with no effect on engine speed. Turbo stage 1 pumps the Fit from stock to 131hp at 6,000rpm and 132lbfft at 5,000rpm - giving you a nice 1:1.007 "hp to tq ratio". The torque is in the same place, but there's more of it and that means the engine's peak power arrives much earlier but there's still more of it across the range - this 131hp turbo engine is making 125hp at peak torque, while the 134hp NA engine is only producing 119hp at the same point. Both have a PP of 366, but which car has the advantage?

Let's try that on an American car now. I've picked the Camaro Z28 '97 because I have one.

Stock: 285hp at 5,000rpm, 333lbfft at 2,500rpm (1:1.168)
ROM: 307hp at 5,200rpm, 347lbfft at 2,700rpm (1:1.130)
NA1: 304hp at 5,100rpm, 350lbfft at 2,600rpm (1:1.151)
NA2: 347hp at 5,200rpm, 391lbfft at 2,700rpm (1:1.127)
NA3: 398hp at 5,300rpm, 440lbfft at 2,800rpm (1:1.105)

Notice how every time the rpm at which peak power increases, the amount of power at the peak increase more than the peak torque - exactly the same as the Japanese car?

Now let's change the compression but not the engine speed...

Supercharger: 337hp at 5,000rpm, 429lbfft at 2,500rpm (1:1.273)

Check out how the torque peak has increased but, as the engine speed hasn't, the increase in torque exceeds that of the increase in power, exactly the same as the Japanese car?

See, the problem is that the modifications available won't change the innate characteristics of an engine. You can't modify a V8 with low down, big torque to have high up, small torque and still make the same power as a free-revving rotary. You have to build it from scratch.

Yes that is the title of the op but only because of a lack of how to word what I am trying to say so I changed the title to better reflect that.

This is odd, because now you're requesting a specific change to American cars away from real life stats...
I know GT's disclaimer says that cars may differ from real life performance, but a specific change for one region's cars seems very odd.

I have explained what it is that I would like to see in the game which is a higher hp to tq ratio in american cars which would even the field when race's are governed by pp.

It's not like it is impossible to do to a v 8 but rather quite common it race engine's to have higher hp then tq.

Until you can blueprint your own engine, this cannot happen.
We're not just talking about light weight pistons and rods, or forged crankshafts, trick cams, light valvetrains and what have you, but the actual size and shape of the combustion chamber. You can't turn a thumping V8 with meaty low down torque - like the typical US street V8 - into a high revving, high torque screamer by changing the components around the combustion chamber (though you can certainly move things upwards if you have the right real-life mix). You have to design it that way from scratch. This is why race engines can be like that - they're made like that from scratch with huge budgets.

Of course, building your own engine would be a lovely feature to have in a future Gran Turismo game.
Incidentally, the lack of capitals and paragraph spacing make your posts very hard to read. I note that your profile says you're Canadian - are you originally French Canadian and we're working with a mild language barrier?

 

[Vegard]

You can't turn a thumping V8 with meaty low down torque - like the typical US street V8 - into a high revving, high torque screamer by changing the components around the combustion chamber (though you can certainly move things upwards if you have the right real-life mix).

The problem is that GT6 uses a very unrealistic tuning model where torque is simply multiplied across the (sometimes extended) rev range. This is true for all upgrades except Turbos and Superchargers and, even worse, for all engines regardless of the stock output level.

In GT6 you can end up with bizarre engines such as small 8 valve OHC l4's with 150 hp/l and turbo diesel torque curves.