How Innovative is Forza 2?

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Maven

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YabaBaga
One of the great complaints against the Gran Turismo series is that it's become stagnant and non-innovative. "It's just the same thing (and same cars) over and over again! That's boring!" The introduction of Forza was hailed as a breath of fresh air, taking what was good about GT and adding everything people wanted to make the ultimate racing game.

So I'd like to know, how is Forza 2 standing up? How will the series avoid the same pitfalls that some feel have claimed GT? Now that it has incorporated damage and customizability, what's next?

The way I see it, the problem is this: Racing games are inherently limited. Basically, you're just taking a car (or plane, or boat) and maneuvering it around a fixed track for a set amount of time. That's all there is to it. The areas you can improve are: Graphics, Sound, Artificial Intelligence, Physics/Control, Personal Involvement. Anything else? All improvements to a racing game essentially fall into one of those areas.

I think Forza did a great job in introducing customizable paint schemes (something I hope gets introduced in the next GT). Before that, GT4 introduced Photo Mode (which I've noticed is being copied by Forza and PGR). Both of those help increase the involvement and creativity of the player.

So what's next?
 
Maven
The way I see it, the problem is this: Racing games are inherently limited. Basically, you're just taking a car (or plane, or boat) and maneuvering it around a fixed track for a set amount of time. That's all there is to it. The areas you can improve are: Graphics, Sound, Artificial Intelligence, Physics/Control, Personal Involvement. Anything else? All improvements to a racing game essentially fall into one of those areas.
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I can agree with that.

One of the things I like about FM2 over GT4 is the shorter races. I think GT4 had too many races to keep me interested to the end. Yes, you could run B-Spec, but anyway, who wants to run 24 hours on a track with no changing track conditions or anything. It's basically almost like running 24 hours in free run.

-The controls are good, at first I had trouble doing braking without ABS, but now that I have it down, it's awesome.
-The physics, while they could be better, are pretty good.


Some things that could be improved:
-Not necessary, but I would like some license tests
-New race types (maybe a drag or autocross mode?)
-Photomode (I liked the set backgrounds in GT4)
-Pits (can't see the pit crew, no tire or fuel choice)
-Qualifying (should be able to qualify for the races, at least the longer ones)
-Of course more tracks and more cars (I would like to see more real world courses)
-More cars on track
-Weather changes and changes in track condition
-AI (sometimes can be a little stupid)
-A greater variety of races (would like to see more weight restricted races)
-The tournaments online should pay more money than regular races online
-Maybe some sort of story?
 
I actually think forza does a pretty good job at being a no nonsense driving game, though I wouldn't mind seeing rougher track surfaces and more/better outside replay angles. The AI is better than in GT4... at least in fm2 you won't get rammed and knocked around as they actually back off when you block them (major improvement just that).

What made me tired of GT4 was the lack of online play and customization, as well as the physics... forza has all those covered, so we'll see if it works. I don't really care about the repetitive nature of driving sims... the new title's just supposed to be like the old game only better and more in my opinion. The worst thing GT has done was remove the bodykits from GT2

As far as pitfalls go, I think the biggest threat to fm2 will be the community (as with all online games). There's a lot of kids spamming the forums with nonsense, but I haven't yet gone live to see what it's like there...
 
How many Gran turismo's have been released since Forza? Most people that like Gran Turismo are car enthusiasts. Non enthusiast may get bored or favor PC racing sims. I'm an enthusiast more so than a racing game nut. Forza doesn't hold my attention because there isn't a whole lot to do from a single player stand point. GT's main focus has always been the cars and KY has always seen it that way.

I don't like forza's single player progression or format. Having to gain levels to access races and cars take the fun out of playing the game. I dont want to waste 5,6,7 hours of my life just drive a Supercar. Thats why I quit Forza ,i wanted to make a drift F360 with a Raggio paint job but i had to do so much racing that it felt meaningless. Knowing I have to get to some level 20 when I'm only like 5 discourages me from wanting to continue. I want to have fun with games. I wasnt going to shell out any cash for the wheel as i already have one taking up space and the 360 wheel would be huge waste of money for me knowing a new Driving force more than likely will come out.

With Forza 2 I aimed lower but still had to work to get a RS4. Never got the RS4 as I gave up again. The track list in Forza2 is also very sad compared to F1.

I dont find Forza 2 innovative at all, I don't think you can "innovate" much in racing games since nothing about forza 2 is new. Innovation is not necessary in racing games. Its a motor sport. like Madden theres not much you can add to core. Anything you innovate at the core could destroy the game.

I don't think forza 2 is a bad game, its just not my taste with its single player mode ,weak track list and tame visuals.
 
I think the advantages of Forza have pretty much been covered, and I'd overall agree. I think the largest and most important of them all has to be the online competition, something that Turn 10 (IMO) rightly put an emphasis on, which adds (usually) a greater amount of competition, and furthermore, a bit more of a different experience each time.

I, personally, became quite bored with GT4 quickly because it just felt so much like GT3. Granted, there were updated cars, and purportedly "updated" AI, but I didn't feel it, and I pretty much stopped putting effort into it after about 70% or so completion.

What makes the Forza 2 single-player mode more appealing, at least to me, is the exact reason as to why LaBounti didn't like it: You have to work your way to the top, much like you would in real life. Many of us don't start of in Ferrari F430s doing hot-laps around Sebring, as we would likely bring a SRT-4 or a Solstice just for the hell of it... Furthermore, the "themed" races, IMO, add up for an interesting mix of challenges (assuming you have it in "Hard" mode), and on that note, there actually appears to be a point at which you can "beat" the game, unlike GT4, which seemed to go on and on without end.

Where we go next, IMO, is largely dependent on what the hardware can allow developers to work with. I think the first big demand on my behalf, beyond the constantly updated car lists has to be "real-time" weather. It is a feature that PGR4 is beginning to play with, offering drivers real-world weather types such as rain, snow, ice, etc. It adds a completely new level of challenge to the games in that while you may be a master say, on the Nurburgring, doing it in the snow or the fog may be much more difficult.

Further implementation of in-car views is also the next big leap that many of the games are taking, and the lack of it in Forza 2 was a pretty big let-down. PGR3 really set a pretty high bar there, one that TDU matched, and one that we all hope GT5 and Forza 3 will do in the future.

I think the basic forms or innovation are going to come with online play, and it largely depends on the game to see what will happen. Its hard to see whats coming down the pipe, but something similar to what Turn 10 had showed at E3 2006 would certainly be an interesting step forward (Forza 2 with Windows Mobile, PC, and X360 management), as well as more community-based influences similar to what we have seen in PGR3/4 (creating and sharing tracks, PGRTV, forum-influenced game modes, racer "gangs", etc).

The future looks good, and I think we're pretty far from the "Madden Effect," in which we only receive updated rosters every year...
 
Forza 2 isn't really even worthy of being called the samething as the first one, and it's still gotten boring for me.

It just doesn't hold my attention at all like the first....
 
Forza is practically an American Gran Turismo Light. The only innovations are online play - and considering the XBoxes are basically stripped down gaming PCs, that's a given - and the paint and bokykit shop. I miss the fully trainable drivatar from FM1, that was also truly innovative. But other than that, Forza is GT with less, except for some supercars. Making drifting easier isn't innovative, it's arcadey.

Since it's entirely possible I'm not going to see my Elite come back from the Texas repair facility for a month, I've gone out and bought a PS3, a serious piece of kit as the Brits would say, and GT HD is stoking me for GT5 Prologue. Even GT4 is fresh after spending almost a year in Forzaland.

Forza 2 is a great game, a little better, a little worse than the first. But the innovation it brings to the table is minor.
 
I dunno, but E36 M3 in Forza= the sex. Off topic, sorry. But such good handling... beat every car in the demo but the 350Z.
 
Tenacious D
Forza is practically an American Gran Turismo Light.
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I think you have a fair assessment there, but I think that also depends on how you are going into it. They're both picking stuff up from each other, so thats a very good thing, but the "Lite" title must come down mostly to cars, I assume?
 
Forza does have less "stuff" than GT4, for example rallying, licenses, long races/tournaments, missions (although I think that was rubbish). The tracks are also more "ironed" out (greatest example is the nürburgring surface) in Forza. Those little extras, plus the more forgiving physics are part of what made GT4 a little easier to like in my opinion.

@Tenacious:
I think GT4 is the more "arcade" game when it comes to tuning and handling. To give an example: there's no danger of lift-off or power oversteer in GT4... as long as you slow down enough to avoid understeer it's pretty safe to jump off the throttle mid corner, or floor a 800hp musclecar out of a hairpin.

But back on topic: The GT4 series hasn't been "innovative" since GT2 either (and I even consider myself something of a GT fanboy) but I don't think that's the point either... what happens to a "sim" when it tries to be innovative? You get Tony Hawk's Wasteland or SSX... hardly realism.

I think that a sim game shouldn't be innovative first and foremost, it should rather be more about getting down and dirty with details to make it as true to realism as possible. For me, GT2 was pretty much spot on when it comes to content: variety, loads of races and cars, some customization. When you have that, the focus in my opinion shouldn't be on new, crazy stuff but getting the physics and details right. And in that scenario, I think Forza's got it right. The only problem is that the hardware can't keep up: The wheel's too sloppy and the Xbox can't handle it.

In any case, I guess true innovation in this genre would be to improve on the prequel, learn from others and don't leave stuff out that was in previous games. When someone is able to combine the content and vastness of GT2 with online play, the physics of Forza and quality 900 degree wheels, THEN we can talk innovation. Let's hope GT5 will be all that.
 
YSSMAN
the "Lite" title must come down mostly to cars, I assume?
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It does to content mostly. There are many more cars and tracks in most Gran Turismo games. Forza 2 in some ways is a very nice improvement over FM1, and in some ways is just strange. The physics are both more mature and squirrelly. The 3D is both improved and much the same. The audio is a mixed bag as well, as opponent cars still drown yours out and sound close when they could be 30 car lengths away. Some cars sound better, but the tire sounds were all done on a Buick with 20psi, so every car almost sounds like a truck. On top of that, the tire dynamics don't match the sound as well as they did in Forza 1. Some of the cars and tracks in Forza 1 were removed, along with the outstanding drivatar, and promised 12 car races were nixed, so we're back to 8 cars per race again. And then there's the wacky ecclectic "college station" music tracks. :P

Another thing is the statement above that the bots don't ram you. Erm... sometimes, sometimes they're still brutal. Gah.

I just got back my 360 from Texas repair yesterday so I've been diving headlong back into Forza 2, and it's not all bad as I wrote above, those are just the flaws. But having to deal with so many flaws makes getting the touch back much more of a chore than a game like Gran Turismo. The rewards more than make up for it, as Forza 2 is an excellent sequel. But I'm coming up on the higher level races now, and the bots are almost as evil as they were in FM1, so I'm resorting to dropping the difficulty down to Medium in some races, because fighting those guys, especially Mr Rossi, is just not much fun when it's hot and I'm tired.

As I said in my post above, the innovative game is Forza 1. It's always strange when content is taken out in a sequel, but Turn 10 added more than enough goodies to make up for it, to me anyway. If I was a drift fiend I'd still be crying, and I do miss the Mt Fuji tracks.
 
I hear you on the point-to-point races. They were some of the most-fun events in Forza 1, and not having them in Forza 2 really does suck. Fuji was a blast, but the Shipyards weren't bad either. I just wish they would have added a few more...

But, your criticisms are completely understandable, and I sympathize with a few of them.
 
Well I like using the 360 controller when playing driving games than the Playstation's controller. What could be next in driving games is have every road, highway, and race tracks on planet earth. I would love to have racing on US Interstate Highway System ...
 
I don't think FM2 breaks any ground either technically or from a gameplay point of view, but it does everything pretty well for me. I enjoy the game enough not to complain too much about the areas that have obviously been overlooked. For me, the Auction House and the ability to design your cars as freely as your imagination with manipulating the shapes lets you, are the most innovative areas of the game. I spend most of my time doing these. I hope Turn 10 will address some of the overlooked and shoddier areas of the game with future updates (although I expect they will expend their energy for the next installment of the game). For me FM2 is a game that could have been great but Turn 10 just dropped the ball in too many areas to make it any better than very good.
 
No Drift mode? Probably Forza 3 would have it. Then again, little kids would adjust the camber or caster more and still whine on how "my car is the ****". But certain Power limitations option would be good if people want their own classes in an online race. But then again were is the fun on beating people who have more power than you.

I like how Forza went into detail on adjusting the caster, camber and Toe of the car, but I want more of an paint job and more detail into tuning. I am still playing Forza just trying to recreate certain cars like "Barricade"'s car, The Panda Trueno and more anime car. Also, what could help is a warning label on those paint jobs before people can buy them.
 
When ever I'm racing against M. Rossi, and i fall behind him or he catches up, I always say "Dammit, Rossi! DAMMIT!" It's so fun to slightly upgrade cars and use them as 'track cars.'
 
umm why have a Drift mode when you can tune the car to drift in the first place ...



nk4e
No Drift mode? Probably Forza 3 would have it. Then again, little kids would adjust the camber or caster more and still whine on how "my car is the ****". But certain Power limitations option would be good if people want their own classes in an online race. But then again were is the fun on beating people who have more power than you.

I like how Forza went into detail on adjusting the caster, camber and Toe of the car, but I want more of an paint job and more detail into tuning. I am still playing Forza just trying to recreate certain cars like "Barricade"'s car, The Panda Trueno and more anime car. Also, what could help is a warning label on those paint jobs before people can buy them.
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frestkd
umm why have a Drift mode when you can tune the car to drift in the first place ...
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Well not tuning wise but more courses like Ebisu or Drift land. Because there is only a certain amount of tracks with good corners. Maple Valley, Tsukuba, etc etc....but we need the 180sx badly though I can see it get played out very very fast.
 
nk4e
Well not tuning wise but more courses like Ebisu or Drift land. Because there is only a certain amount of tracks with good corners. Maple Valley, Tsukuba, etc etc....but we need the 180sx badly though I can see it get played out very very fast.
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umm 180sx is a silvia, and they drift well so does every other front engine, rear wheel drive car in the game. A real good track to drift on is Sunset.
 
frestkd
umm 180sx is a silvia, and they drift well so does every other front engine, rear wheel drive car in the game. A real good track to drift on is Sunset.
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180sx isn't a silvia. A silvia is another family, hence why you have the 180sx type X separated from the S13K or Q. Sunset is kind of short and many players go on there but I wish that there was more tracks available. I am a member on the actual site and I look at the settings before but never tried them. I watched the videos before.
 
nk4e
180sx isn't a silvia. A silvia is another family, hence why you have the 180sx type X separated from the S13K or Q. Sunset is kind of short and many players go on there but I wish that there was more tracks available. I am a member on the actual site and I look at the settings before but never tried them. I watched the videos before.
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hmm ok whatever ... 180sx, and silvias are Nissan's S13 Uni-bodied cars so they're the same to me, just the body panels are different. Some ppl make Sil-eighty out of 180sx, and silvia front body panels.
 

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