Hybrid Lexus supercar on the way

[Pebb]

Source: AutoCar

The world’s first hybrid supercar is a step closer to being revealed by Lexus at October’s Tokyo motor show.

Senior Lexus executives have revealed that “our plan is for every Lexus model to have a hybrid version” a statement that also opens the way for a hybrid IS model, a development that would add an edge to Lexus’s battle with established European luxury brands like BMW and Mercedes.

The news leaked out at the European launch of the newest Lexus hybrid - the flagship LS600h saloon – at the end of April, confirming Autocar’s prediction in 2006 that the Lexus supercar would be hybrid powered.

Already previewed by two concepts, each badged LF-A, the Lexus supercar is expected to feature a variant of the LS600h’s V8-based hybrid.

Billed as offering “V12 performance with the economy of a V8”, the LS 600h features a 388bhp 5.0-litre V8 and 221bhp electric motor combining to make 439bhp.

In the LF-A, the technology may need to be upgraded to give a total output closer to 500bhp – when the hybrid would match the rumoured output of the V10 engine said to power a more conventional version of the LF-A.

To make the IS saloon fit Lexus’s strategic vision, a hybrid version of that car would likely have a four-cylinder petrol engine to give the performance of a V6 with the economy of a four-cylinder.

“But the question is how we develop a four-cylinder hybrid,” says Lexus.

The Toyota Prius uses a four-cylinder engine, but of only 1.5-litre capacity and transversely-mounted.

An IS hybrid would need an engine of around two litres capacity and the electrical hardware and batteries be packaged around an in-line engine and rear-drive gearbox and axle.

Hybrid sales are booming in Europe, with 30 per cent of Lexus sales this year expected to be petrol/electric powered.

The hybrid-powered RX 4x4 will overshadow conventional engine models in the UK this year, taking 80 per cent of sales.

Sales of the GS450h hybrid saloon in the UK are set to overtake last year’s 624 units. In the first three months of the year, 234 have been registered.

 

[Jim Prower]

and will only be purchased by greenies, shunned by serious sports car fans.

 

[YSSMAN]

I agree. I can't think of too many people who actually take the whole notion of a hybrid sports car seriously besides Toyota themselves, and even when they did that Prius race series, they admitted there were some shortcomings to the program.

...And since when was 500 BHP a good number for a V12? There are quite a few V8s and V10s running around with that these days, so I'm uncertain how this hybrid is supposed to 'offer the performance of a V12 with the economy of a V8' when they aren't even matching the performance of a good, powerful V12 to begin with...

 

[Casio]

I'd buy one. Just to piss everyone off on this forum.

 

[Jim Prower]

spite is no reason to get something you won't be happy with, or as happy with as something else.

 

[m7ammed]

this whole hydbrid thing is getting out of hand , to make a sports cars hydbrid defies (sp?) the purpose of ti being sporty with all the weight thats going to be added from the battries, can you imagine how bad this car going to handel?

 

[Jim Prower]

But that's what Advanced Stability Control is for!

(a 911 Carrera will smoke it at the Ring, with 200 less HP.)

 

[Azuremen]

I must be the only person not in Toyota that likes the idea of a hybrid sports car, but I've also had the pleasure of watching a fully electric car waste tons of stuff at the drag strip and autocross. (Not that Tesla either, this was before that thing)

Though I personally feel the hybrid motor setup works best with high revving, low displacement motors, where its massive amount of torque can help with lower end power, basically expanding the range of the power band. You mount the batteries low in the chassis, which brings the center of gravity down quite a bit, can actually help with stability and handling if done right. Though the weight will kill tires a bit quicker.

5 liter V8s generally have enough torque as is. Should be interesting to see later on, but Toyota needs to focus on battery technology first and improving it.

 

[Bram Turismo]

Give Toyota a break guys. Come on, everyone is complaining on Toyota not producing anything powerful, maybe asides the previous Thundra models. For me, they produce enough here in Norway. The 4.2 V6 and 4.7 engines in the Landcruisers here give enough power to propell it to 60 mph faster than the BMW 7-series (if you're looking at the first model which came out, not some 400 HP monster).

I don't live in America so I cannot judge how the cars of Toyota are there but I just want to say; Give them a try, that doesn't hurt anyone. I prefer Toyota giving it a try and fail at it rather than not producing it at all. At least they'll produce something fast.

Seriously, they've got enough money. They've got nothing too lose: Reputation? Uh..Yeah right!

 

[JCE]

Toyota is still proving they are worthless. Two things irk me:

1. The terms "supercar" and "hybrid" do NOT go together.
2. 500bhp? Weak. It better offer fuel economy like a V8 because it's power most certainly is like a V8

 

[Tornado]

...And since when was 500 BHP a good number for a V12? There are quite a few V8s and V10s running around with that these days, so I'm uncertain how this hybrid is supposed to 'offer the performance of a V12 with the economy of a V8' when they aren't even matching the performance of a good, powerful V12 to begin with...

Not one to keep from shunning Toyota or Hybrids, this is fallacy. The amount of cylinders an engine has really doesn't have that much to do with how much power it has so much as it has to do with smoothness. One of those V10s with around 500BHP? Over 500 cubic inches. I'd hope it have around 500 BHP.
Aston Martin has big V12 engines that have less than 500BHP. Mercedes has big twin turbocharged V12 engines with only 500BHP. Ferrari has a big V12 with only 40 more BHP than that. 500BHP is fine for a V12, and the “V12 performance with the economy of a V8” isn't really that far off base.
Also, since when is around 500BHP not enough for a Supercar? I think Lamborghini has gotten away with it, and even Ford tried to lie and say that their car had only 500BHP, so when is that "underpowered?"
That being said, I'm sure Toyota will completely miss the point with the car and design some outstanding platform and drivetrain, then straddle it to undefeatable traction nannies, making the whole excercise pointless.

 

[Jim Prower]

Give Toyota a break guys. Come on, everyone is complaining on Toyota not producing anything powerful, maybe asides the previous Thundra models.

No, Toyotas are perfectly capable of producing power. They just don't trust the driver with it enough.

Most of Toyota's Hi-po models have a safetynet a mile wide. You can't turn off the stability control completely. There's almost always an automatic attached to the car. The wonderful wide-angle **-GE engines are a thing of the past. Most competing Honda models make a more engaging drive.

The IS-F, I've heard, Has an engine massaged by Yamaha, (Possibly a -GE?) so it may be a driver's car. There is still hope for enthusiasts out there.

 

[JCE]

Toronado for the last time the GT500 was rated officially by the SAE to have 500bhp at the crank which is what automakers use to sell their cars. I'm sick and tired of the GT500 haters using some bull**** like the TopGear rolling road test for evidence of their hatred against it. It may have a rubbish suspension to you and rubbish track numbers, but just stop with the "it doesn't have 500bhp" arguement because you lose.

And secondly, those automakers you listed; Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Aston Martin. Look at those names, you pay for more than just around 500bhp. You pay for prestige, badging, technology, and exclusivity. And in particular, Aston Martin is the most comfortable way of driving 180mph. The Astons are a billion times better than any Lexus will ever be. And Mercedes has 2 tuning companies and a million trim levels to suit their customers. If you want that S-class with 650bhp+ then Brabus answers the call. If you just want 500bhp-ish then AMG answers the call. And Mercs are also a billion times better to be in than any Lexus.

 

[Pupik]

I'd buy one. Just to piss everyone off on this forum.

Add another $150,000 to my paycheck, and I'd do the same. Then everyone would say what a cool car it was. But as long as nobody here owns it, it will be shunned and mocked. Hell, I'd buy it just so I can travel in the HOV lanes any time of day. Seriously, why does anyone need more than 400 horsepower, anyhow? Another 100 horsepower does not mean 25% better acceleration nor top end speed. It's just bragging rights, after all, since few people actually race their mega-super-exotic cars nor even track-drive them.

I agree that there's almost point in a hybrid electric-and-gasoline-powered sports car. It's rather silly to saddle all the extra weight into a sports car, unless the added torque at 0 RPM is a benefit that transcends the additional weight of a battery and MG motors. I suppose it exists just so Toyota can say, "we can do it anyhow, screw you guys". Which is pretty much the point of a supercar, right?

 

[YSSMAN]

Not one to keep from shunning Toyota or Hybrids, this is fallacy. The amount of cylinders an engine has really doesn't have that much to do with how much power it has so much as it has to do with smoothness. One of those V10s with around 500BHP? Over 500 cubic inches. I'd hope it have around 500 BHP.
Aston Martin has big V12 engines that have less than 500BHP. Mercedes has big twin turbocharged V12 engines with only 500BHP. Ferrari has a big V12 with only 40 more BHP than that. 500BHP is fine for a V12, and the “V12 performance with the economy of a V8” isn't really that far off base.
Also, since when is around 500BHP not enough for a Supercar? I think Lamborghini has gotten away with it, and even Ford tried to lie and say that their car had only 500BHP, so when is that "underpowered?"

I realized after writing that that I didn't take everything into consideration, but I was too lazy and too tired to re-write everything to make my opinion clearly stated...

...Either way, 500 BHP really isn't that much power in the supercar game anymore. When there are 500-725 BHP Mustangs, 500-650 BHP Corvettes, 600+ BHP Vipers, not to mention the wide variety of 500 BHP Germans and Italians, and you're getting into a crowded group of cars that are all ankle-deep in the horsepower wars, and are still looking for more power.

Quite frankly, I'm good with the 'standard' LF-A. Seeing it in person, it isn't the worst car on four wheels, but a hybrid version is just silly.

...And I agree with JCE, the Ford thing is just a difference of testing. Wheel horsepower will always be less than crank horsepower (what every single automobile manufacturer quotes in magazines, etc)...

That being said, I'm sure Toyota will completely miss the point with the car and design some outstanding platform and drivetrain, then straddle it to undefeatable traction nannies, making the whole excercise pointless.

Yep. I think we can all agree on that...

 

[Aquendwato]

Hopefully Toyota will recognize that if they're making a supercar it shouldn't drive like a luxo sedan. I'm perfectly okay with an LS running my input through a string of computers a mile long, but nobody who drives a high-powered sports car wants that.

 

[YSSMAN]

^ Especially when the car is, in theory, capable of 200+ MPH...

 

[Philly]

Hopefully Toyota will recognize that if they're making a supercar it shouldn't drive like a luxo sedan. I'm perfectly okay with an LS running my input through a string of computers a mile long, but nobody who drives a high-powered sports car wants that.

Bugatti Veyron, anyone? It can be done, you just don't want it to be done on a track car. There are luxo "supercars" out there, they just aren't the full-blood no-compromise sportsters like, say, an Enzo or Saleen.

 

[Tornado]

Toronado for the last time the GT500 was rated officially by the SAE to have 500bhp at the crank which is what automakers use to sell their cars. I'm sick and tired of the GT500 haters using some bull**** like the TopGear rolling road test for evidence of their hatred against it. It may have a rubbish suspension to you and rubbish track numbers, but just stop with the "it doesn't have 500bhp" arguement because you lose.

I find it incredibly comical that you think I was referring to the GT500, when I in fact have defended that it probably did have at least 500 BHP. You'll also note that even if I was referring to the GT500, I said "only 500BHP" which implies that I was saying it was underrated, not overrated.
I was in fact refering to the Ford GT, which Ford initially rated at 500BHP for craps and giggles and was later found out to be underrated by at the very least 50BHP. So if you have a major beef with the Shelby GT500 haters, take it to that thread. Thank you.

 

[JCE]

I find it incredibly comical that you think I was referring to the GT500, when I in fact have defended that it probably did have at least 500 BHP. You'll also note that even if I was referring to the GT500, I said "only 500BHP" which implies that I was saying it was underrated, not overrated.
I was in fact refering to the Ford GT, which Ford initially rated at 500BHP for craps and giggles and was later found out to be underrated by at the very least 50BHP. So if you have a major beef with the Shelby GT500 haters, take it to that thread. Thank you.

How is it comical? If you are a GT500 defender then you already know that my assumption wasn't so far off base? I do quite agree with the Ford GT being underrated @ concept (500bhp), then at production (550bhp). Ford always underrates their trick ponies. Most notably the 2003/2004 Mustang Cobra...it had almost 390hp to the wheels. Shame on you Ford!

But, to get on topic. If Toyota is getting almost $100k from the stupid LS V8 hybrid how much is this abomination going to cost people? $160k?

Japan hasn't come far enough in large displacement engines to charge more than $80k for a vehicle yet. I'm not against Japanese cars, I think that is clear with my passion for Nissan and Mazda. But, the only mass produced V8's that were designed in Japan were the Toyota 1UZ-FE, Toyota 2UZ-FE, Toyota 3UZ-FE, Toyota 1UR-FSE/1UR-FE, Nissan VH45DE, and the Nissan VH41DE. And the largest displacement engine in that list is the 4.6L Toyota unit, and while it's power numbers are really very good they are below 400bhp and would need either massive re-engineering/tuning to get over 450bhp naturally aspirated or some good Japanese forced induction. If Toyota is really serious about making a supercar they need to take some advice from TVR, Aston Martin, and believe it or not GM. In that order, style, ease of use, massive power but cheaply done. The only way I see a Toyota supercar being worth the price is with 550bhp or more and a mid-engined RWD design. They claim to have a V10 and V12 but the power numbers they release are quite dismal. "Almost" 500bhp isn't enough for such a large engine.

 

[Tornado]

How is it comical?

Because you jumped on me for ragging on the GT500, as I have done before, posting to great lengths on how I was wrong for criticising the GT500s power rating, when I wasn't referring to the GT500 at all. The Ford GT was comically underrated when it launched, and that is what I was referring to.

 

[JCE]

Because you jumped on me for ragging on the GT500, as I have done before, posting to great lengths on how I was wrong for criticising the GT500s power rating, when I wasn't referring to the GT500 at all.

You'll forgive me if I forget what I posted, hell I forgot what I posted here yesterday. I have too much going on in my head to remember what I posted and I'm a member of quite a few other forums as well. Hard to keep track of it all. I hope you aren't taking any offense, because nothing was directed to you personally. Since that wasn't what you were referring to then there doesn't even need to be anymore discussion. 👍

 

[Tornado]

But, the only mass produced V8's that were designed in Japan were the Toyota 1UZ-FE, Toyota 2UZ-FE, Toyota 3UZ-FE, Toyota 1UR-FSE/1UR-FE, Nissan VH45DE, and the Nissan VH41DE. And the largest displacement engine in that list is the 4.6L Toyota unit, and while it's power numbers are really very good they are below 400bhp and would need either massive re-engineering/tuning to get over 450bhp naturally aspirated or some good Japanese forced induction.

Toyota produces a 5.7L version of the UR series engine (3UR-FE: 381 BHP, 401 lb.ft.) and I think if they put the direct injection system in it that is in the 1UR-FSE (381 BHP, 370 lb. ft.) that the 3UR would pull at least 425BHP incredibly easily (especially considering it has more than a liter of displacement on the 1UR-FSE and has the same BHP without the direct injection).

 

[JCE]

Toyota produces a 5.7L version of the UR series engine (3UR-FE: 381 BHP, 401 lb.ft.) and I think if they put the direct injection system in it that is in the 1UR-FSE (381 BHP, 370 lb. ft.) that the 3UR would pull at least 425BHP incredibly easily (especially considering it has more than a liter of displacement on the 1UR-FSE and has the same BHP without the direct injection).

That 5.7L is an American designed and engineered V8 for the Tundra. I was referring to the Japanese designed and engineered V8's. And 425bhp isn't enough for a supercar, and infact isn't enough for a large sport coupe now. You have saloon cars with 400bhp+, sport coupes and supercars need to have more power than saloon cars--minus the Brabus S-class.

 

[Tornado]

And 425bhp isn't enough for a supercar, and infact isn't enough for a large sport coupe now.

That's when you add the hybrid stuff, which would reel in this Toyota supercar at around 550-600BHP.

 

[JCE]

Point taken then. 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

That's when you add the hybrid stuff, which would reel in this Toyota supercar at around 550-600BHP.

Then you add the weight for the hybrid system, the presumed AWD setup, the fancy computers, luxury equipment, etc and you're back to playing ball with the Audi R8 and Porsche 911, right where you left off with the 'standard' LF-A.

...I know I sound negative, and I'm trying not to be, as I am genuinely interested in the 'normal' LF-A, but as far as the hybrid model goes, I'm going to remain a bit skeptical...