Hypothetical Question: "One Impreza, Miata,etc is faster than the others" How is that happen?

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FoRiZon

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Now this ones bogs in my mind. Say its a bunch of Imprezas or Miatas or Skylines or anything. They all have the same power and, relatively, has the rather equal weight (200kg-ish range). And yet it possess a large difference in lap times. And its not like the most PP, least weight, or the latest model won. In fact, in most cases, cars with those in the middle is the fastest!

Any factor contributed to those? Ive been questioning it for a long time :confused:
 
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"Red ones go faster." Italian legend.

It is an odd thing - I ran the GT86/BRZ/FRS triplets expecting a close grouping of lap times, but the Toyota was quite a distant 3rd to the Subaru and the Scion despite being basically the same.

It could be something inside the driver. It is probably down to looking at a sample of laps that is too small to get meaningful results. You really need to put dozens of laps to get the feel for a car and not skew your findings with a few bad laps or a few mercurial laps.

Maybe the PD team programmed in a car to be a bit slow because it is the car that belongs to his Ex Wifes car, so he made sure no one would use it. Not since she took it from him in the divorce.
He misses her terribly, the wife not so much.
 
Isn't this something to do with the Japanese manufacturers gentleman's agreement where all skyline's, impreza's, evo's & what not show the same bhp on paper but not whats really being outputted ?

Or something along those lines.... not really sure.

Forget it, I'm mumbling.
 
There are several small differences between cars that are similar. The 11 normal R34 Skylines (with the exception of the Midnight Purple editions) have varied suspension, brakes, and body panels which can add up to a noticeably faster lap time. Also keep in mind that while engines can have the same peak hp, more revised versions of the same engine can have reduced turbo lag and more power across the range.
 
Ryk
"Red ones go faster." Italian legend.

It is an odd thing - I ran the GT86/BRZ/FRS triplets expecting a close grouping of lap times, but the Toyota was quite a distant 3rd to the Subaru and the Scion despite being basically the same.

It could be something inside the driver. It is probably down to looking at a sample of laps that is too small to get meaningful results. You really need to put dozens of laps to get the feel for a car and not skew your findings with a few bad laps or a few mercurial laps.

Maybe the PD team programmed in a car to be a bit slow because it is the car that belongs to his Ex Wifes car, so he made sure no one would use it. Not since she took it from him in the divorce.
He misses her terribly, the wife not so much.
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I guess it has to do with the suspensio, the Subaru having a different one. Besides the Subaru looks a little bit different to the Toyota if you watch carefully.
Mr Grumpy
Isn't this something to do with the Japanese manufacturers gentleman's agreement where all skyline's, impreza's, evo's & what not show the same bhp on paper but not whats really being outputted ?

Or something along those lines.... not really sure.

Forget it, I'm mumbling.
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The gentleman's agreement doesn't exist anymore but yes even tough lancers and imprezas are advertised to have same bhp output they are different, the older ones at least
 
If the cars all have the same specs as in power/torque/weight/transmission ratios, then it's possible there's some hidden grip multiplier in play.
 
Johnnypenso
If the cars all have the same specs as in power/torque/weight/transmission ratios, then it's possible there's some hidden grip multiplier in play.
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hahaha, oh my :lol: :ouch:

You're really always there to seed some mysteries about GT6s oh so bad physics engine 👍 :crazy:
 
ron86
hahaha, oh my :lol: :ouch:

You're really always there to seed some mysteries about GT6s oh so bad physics engine 👍 :crazy:
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Uhhhh....no. GT5 used a chassis grip multipier, that's how the physics were programmed. I've been told it's different in GT6 but if someone is experiencing different performance from the same specs, then the grip must be different in each car. How else would you get different performance from the same specs?
 
Ryk
"Red ones go faster." Italian legend.

It is an odd thing - I ran the GT86/BRZ/FRS triplets expecting a close grouping of lap times, but the Toyota was quite a distant 3rd to the Subaru and the Scion despite being basically the same.

It could be something inside the driver. It is probably down to looking at a sample of laps that is too small to get meaningful results. You really need to put dozens of laps to get the feel for a car and not skew your findings with a few bad laps or a few mercurial laps.
Click to expand...

I've been doing a couple of tests between the Subaru and the Toyota, on GT Arena, High Speed Ring, Streets of Willows and Nordschleife. After looking at the data in the data logger I have to say that I can't see any difference what so ever between the cars, the graphs are identical. The only notable difference is the engine sound, which in the beginning made me shift earlier in the Toyota than in the Subaru.

The time difference on Nordschleife was 0.7 seconds.
 
Johnnypenso
Uhhhh....no. GT5 used a chassis grip multipier, that's how the physics were programmed. I've been told it's different in GT6 but if someone is experiencing different performance from the same specs, then the grip must be different in each car. How else would you get different performance from the same specs?
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You were told in no uncertain terms that the multipliers were applied to tyres. "Chassis grip" was always 1 in GT5.

The consensus from those who did the digging is that the multipliers are for per compound parity across cars.

It's clear the specs don't tell the whole story, but there are any number of things that could be at play.

Off the top of my head: gear ratios, suspension, lsd, weight distribution, flywheel and every other drivetrain part MMOI, clutch friction and engagement point, downforce, torque curve etc.

Then there's always the driver to consider.
 
The loose nut behind the wheel is the biggest variable in lap times and racing.

I'll have to retest the Scyotaru triplets again as I found the Scion and Subaru to be a good bit faster than the Toyota by over a second at Trial Mountain Circuit.
 
Ryk
The loose nut behind the wheel is the biggest variable in lap times and racing.

I'll have to retest the Scyotaru triplets again as I found the Scion and Subaru to be a good bit faster than the Toyota by over a second at Trial Mountain Circuit.
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You know what, I just tested the Toyota vs the Scion on Trial Mountain and it seems to me like the Toyota do understeer more than the Scion. The data logger shows that I turned the wheel more when driving the Toyota than when driving the Scion, and that occurs in almost every corner of the track.

Edit: Checked the BRZ as well, the graph is nearly identical to the Scion.

Edit 2: @Ryk what happens when you buy a new suspension for the cars? Is the Toyota still lagging behind?
 
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Johnnypenso
Uhhhh....no. GT5 used a chassis grip multipier, that's how the physics were programmed. I've been told it's different in GT6 but if someone is experiencing different performance from the same specs, then the grip must be different in each car. How else would you get different performance from the same specs?
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Mhm, but what the OP really said was --> "They all have the same power and, relatively, has the rather equal weight (200kg-ish range)"

;)
 
Odd. I wanted the Toyota to be the fastest and hoped the wonky left hand drive Scion would be slower. But for what ever reason the Toyota was off Maldonado and the Scion and Subaru were.

I ran the cars bones stock no driver aids at all - I think Comfort Softs - though. None of them felt instantly faster or slower than the others when I drove, and in fact the Toyota felt like I was pretty much on it for the whole test, but the lap times were just slower -

You could be right Eran (Erik) if the suspension has different settings then I could be losing speed and momentum in the corners fighting understeer.

Bolting on a custom suspension and using the same settings should eliminate "Factory settings" as a reason the Toyota is slower. Maybe the Toyota has more chassis flex as a hidden factor - but I always thought the Scion and Toyota were mirror images of each other so I would expect these two to be hard to split.


Time to wake up the inner test driver in me...

Some say that he appears on high value stamps in Sweden, and that he can catch fish with his tongue... we know him only, as the Ryk.
 
ron86
Mhm, but what the OP really said was --> "They all have the same power and, relatively, has the rather equal weight (200kg-ish range)"

;)
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Oh my. I think we can safely conclude then that they aren't the same specs:lol:
 
HSR (rev)
CH tyres
Soft Suspension and a LSD (10/40/20)
No Aids
88.763 - Toyota
88.135 - Scion
88.445 - Subaru

Though this test could be skewed due to increasing track knowledge over the test runs - The Subaru felt like it was able to rotate more, The Thing that stuck out from the Toyota was how tall 6th gear was, but the Scion and Subaru had the same Long Tall Sally) 6th gear.

The Scion felt a bit "pushey" at times but was obviously quicker than the Toyota while I was pedalling. The Subaru may have lost some time with the back end losing grip under power through corners - spooling up a rear wheel.

High Speed Ring may not be the best track to test on - I hoped the simple nature would remove some driver issues.
 
Ryk
HSR (rev)
CH tyres
Soft Suspension and a LSD (10/40/20)
No Aids
88.763 - Toyota
88.135 - Scion
88.445 - Subaru
Click to expand...

Those seem to be the same differences in lap time that I've seen in comparisons that I have run and in threads by @SuzukaStar and @GT_Alex74. The Toyota seems to have much more understeer at turn-in than the Scion and Subaru.

At first I thought it was me preferring the Scion for being left-hand drive (cockpit view) but ultimately it is slightly faster over a lap than the other two cars.
 
I've been watching a lot of Mythbusters of late. We need Jaime and Adam (or maybe Kari, Grant and Torry) to prove/disprove the fable. "The Toyota GT86 is a slowpoke and isn't as fast as the Subaru BRZ or Scion FRS"

But they would need to shot it with various calibre recoilless rifles or ballast it with 100kilos of tinned cookie dough in the passenger seat and run it at Le Mans in the summer sun. (Nervously looks at the potential detonation as the car labours up to 140mph on the Mulsanne!)

So Busted/Plausible or Confirmed?

....
Are here any GT-R's that stand out from the crowd?
In an odd way I like the slowest car in a matched set of cars, you have to drive much harder to keep up. If you lose, then you have a cast iron excuse (Like Ferrari had last season)
 
When I tested all three cars at Suzuka Circuit on SH tires many months ago, I got these results:

2:29.995 - 406 - 2012 Toyota 86 GT
2:30.110 - 406 - 2012 Scion FR-S
2:30.134 - 406 - 2012 Subaru BRZ S

There is basically no difference in overall times. Maybe the handling varied slightly, but there is no clear winner. I could probably do 2:29 with all 3 cars if I tried hard enough.

I'll attempt this again at Laguna Seca today. Already did the BRZ so I just have to do the other 2 cars.
 
Laguna Seca. Comfort Hard tires.

1:51.633 - 407 - Scion FR-S '12
1:51.685 - 407 - Toyota 86 GT '12
1:51.810 - 407 - Subaru BRZ S '12

The BRZ came in last at both tracks, but just barely. On any given day, it could end up being the fastest of the three. Taking a single corner just 1 mph too slowly, or clipping a corner with 2 tires in the dirt, will be the difference between 1st and 3rd place in this comparison. These cars can run 1:51 all day long, so it doesn't really matter which one you choose. The 86 did feel slightly more understeery, but it could just be in my head. I'd have to study the replays.

Difference between 1st and 3rd place at Laguna - 0.177
Difference between 1st and 3rd place at Suzuka - 0.139

Also not sure why the cars have 407 pp when about a year ago they had 406. I bought them brand new both times.
 
tankuroded
With NA MX-5s, remember that '89-'93? models have lower displacement compared to newer ones. ;)
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Yes, I do.

The 1989 has the 1600cc while '93 version has 1800cc.

Same for K's 1988 and 1991 which:
'88 K's has 1800cc (173) and '91 K's (202) has 2000cc. Same for Q's.
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Impreza's have differences, espcecially the Version WRX '94, Version II '95 and Version III '96.
 
Raven_WET01
There are several small differences between cars that are similar. The 11 normal R34 Skylines (with the exception of the Midnight Purple editions) have varied suspension, brakes, and body panels which can add up to a noticeably faster lap time. Also keep in mind that while engines can have the same peak hp, more revised versions of the same engine can have reduced turbo lag and more power across the range.
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This, plus weight distribution and chasis.
 

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