I have a theory about GT5 brakes...

[calan_svc]

...and that is that they are unfinished.

I've done a bunch of testing (way too much probably) with different cars, different brake bias, and different ABS settings, and the only conclusion I can come to is that the brake physics are incomplete and "patched" by setting all cars to have a default ABS setting of 1.

To begin with, the brake pressure values make no sense. There should be brake components (upgrades) that increase braking pressure and heat dissipation to prevent brake fade; the tuning should be a simple bias adjustment between front and back.

The ABS system works nothing like I would expect it to. There is no feedback to the rest of the physics engine when the ABS is active; no FFB effects, no wheel hop or changes in the suspension reaction, etc. In fact, setting the ABS to anything above zero seems to simply disable most weight transfer effects and prevent wheel lock-up. It is especially evident on high powered/heavy cars, but the effect can be felt on all cars.

Even with an ABS value of just "1", brake bias settings seem to have much less effect on how the cars' weight shifts, while with it turned off weight shift is extreme, even at low brake pressure settings.

There are rare cases where I've been able to turn off ABS and adjust the brake pressure to get a decent balance, but by the time I get to this point, the car takes forever to stop and the brakes will still lock up. (I would think that a brake pressure of "0" on both ends of the car would equate to broken hydraulic lines and no brakes...but that isn't the case).

Opinions?

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I think the brakes on GT5 are, well... just nonsense.

That's my opinion.

 

[shirakawaa]

The ABS in GT5 simply isn't a realistic representation of what a real system does.
It appears to maximize braking force at the utmost limit of tire grip in a smooth way.
It also seems to work as a kind of stability control only working during braking, changing dynamically braking force and braking balance depending on the load on each tire, promoting understeer with a 5/5 setting. Even with extreme balance values like 2/10, rear braking force is still somewhat mild compared to what one would expect. With the ABS on, the brake balance setting loses its meaning, and becomes merely a suggestion for the ABS implementation.

On the other hand, try disabling the ABS and you will see that the car will react realistically to the brake input. The brake balance makes actually sense (well, sort of), and for example a setting of 4/1 will now actually send to the front axle four times the braking power that the rear has.

GT5 implements some kind of "godly", perfect ABS able to monitor extremely precisely each tire's grip and working with infinitely smooth, dynamically variable brake inputs. Real ABS systems are far from being this efficient.

The underlying system doesn't seem to be too much flawed; the ABS implementation is.

What needs improvement:

• Brake fading needs to be simulated
• There should be different brake sets/upgrades with different characteristics. A few weeks ago I hypothesized four different "kits":
  • Stock - stock brakes with severe fading, poor feel and average maximum possible stopping power (depending on the car. Old cars would be in disadvantage, sports cars in advantage)
  • Sport - Good all-around brake kit with limited fading, good feel and maximum possible stopping power. No drawback.
  • Semi-Race - Pro kit with even more limited fading, instant action and increased stopping power, but needing attention in operating temperatures.
  • Race - Race-track use only kit with very limited fading, stopping power potentially exceeding that of any tire and load, but that works correctly only if run hard, over a certain operating temperature
• Separate brake power (which would go to a 1-100 scale for example, with the maximum value depending on the kit) and brake balancement (working in percentages like 75%-25%. The total would always be 100%)
• A realistic implementation of real ABS systems, possibly more than one, to reflect the tecnological differences that have occurred over the last decades. Each car would have ideally its own, if applicable. PD should contact Bosch for tips on this matter.
• Possible brake failure if mechanical damage is activated
• Give each car a default brake balance which makes sense

This is all I have to write on this for now

 

[Highlandor]

Agreed, the brakes and the options available to tune them has gone backwards since GT4.

 

[shirakawaa]

Agreed, the brakes and the options available to tune them has gone backwards since GT4.

In GT4 the racing upgrade was useless, though. It made no difference as brake fading wasn't simulated and variable braking power was implemented with the braking controller. That's probably why they removed it. This exposed PD's failure in correctly modeling brakes, though.

 

[BobElHat]

The ABS seems not only to work far more smoothly than real ABS, but it feels like it works based on the slip angle in every direction. This makes it almost a kind of ESP. Real ABS of course can only detect slip forwards and backwards, it has no idea if the tyre is slipping sideways.

 

[Lion-Face]

From what I've played around with the brakes, and from GT5Prologue when you were first able to have no ABS whatsoever....

ABS always appears to have some form ASM in effect that helps stabilize the car when you press on the brakes. It doesn't really matter so much where your car is in what position, if your sliding sideways a bit, you can generally rely on your brakes to bring you back under control with ABS on at least 1. A great place to highlight this difference is Suzuka Circuit's Hairpin, after the Degner Corners. Try running that hairpin a couple of times in a high powered car with Sports tires on and ABS=1, then try to replicate what you've accomplished with ABS=0, everything else the same.

It has become better in GT5 compared to previous games where it won't save you all the time but is still not true to life.

With ABS off you have to be very careful with the brake pedal. Getting sideways means you have to use little braking power otherwise you risk a lock up and binning it. Although I don't agree with the OP, I find I can brake just as late and hard as when I have ABS on and the correct brake bias settings, but it is certainly a lot more difficult and really punishes you if you make a mistake.

In GT5 compared with GT5P, ABS=0 is a lot better. It appears that you can turn better while applying brakes provided you understand the grip circle and modulate the brakes properly. On a good lap, and depending on the track, I can match my ABS=1 times but its difficult to be consistent, probably due to lack of practice with ABS=0.

I feel the ABS on/off has come better over just 2 games, but still has some way to go. This was my biggest gripe with GT5Prologue in the fact that running ABS=0 rendered you effectively uncompetitive where in GT5 you can be reasonably competitive

@SHIRAKAWA Akira
Pretty much agree on everything you've said and would like to see those 'improvements' you suggested implemented sooner rather than later. 👍