I'm worried for Art. 13 and 11, if it would influence even on GT sport

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DISCLAMER: I DON'T WANNA START ANY DRAMA AND I DON'T WANT THIS POST GET DOOMED

So has you know guys, the EU parlament is trying to improve the article 13 and 11 those 2 articles are about copyright, so what will happned in gt sport since the livery stuff are most copyrighted by other companies such has example monster or renault etc.? i am seriously worried for most european users :(
 
It's a good point.

I guess it more or less the same thing as if you use tobacco or alcohol logos in your liveries, as it's banned in most countries... at some, even liveries resembling classic tobacco/beverage are illegal in some countries...
 
Who would even police it? It would require full time staff to run through each and every decal to remove copyrighted material, and even then they'd have to prove it was copyrighted and offer a way of contesting the decision. Plus GT Sport is sold all over the world, including many countries where they're not changing the laws, so what would happen then? There are too many hurdles for them to pick apart GT Sport's decal sharing; it's not worth their time when people aren't making money off it.
 
Who would even police it? It would require full time staff to run through each and every decal to remove copyrighted material, and even then they'd have to prove it was copyrighted and offer a way of contesting the decision. Plus GT Sport is sold all over the world, including many countries where they're not changing the laws, so what would happen then? There are too many hurdles for them to pick apart GT Sport's decal sharing; it's not worth their time when people aren't making money off it.

Never underestimate AirStrip One. Remember, Big Brother is watching.
 
Fair use. Done.
Wrong.

In countries that have robust copyright laws "fair use", or "fair dealing" as its called in the UK, are provisions that allow the use of copyrighted works, without prior permission, for the purpose of non-commercial research/study, criticism or review, or reporting of current events. Some countries, like the US (and certain EU countries where relevant EU directives have been incorporated into national law) allow for parody also; thats how movie studios get away with things like Scary Movie or porn producers get away with their xxx remakes of popular movies.

The use of copyrighted decals in liveries in GTS[1] is not covered by any of the fair use/dealing provisions; It is not non-commercial research/study, it is not criticism or review, it is not reporting of current events and it is not, where applicable, parody. What it is, in the eyes of the law, is pure copyright infringement.

Polyphony Digital are "getting away with it" for the same reason as the likes of YouTube gets away with having copyrighted content uploaded by third parties; there are also laws that indemnify website operators against infringement when reproducing copyrighted material (as thats why they're doing every time a copyrighted image/video is served from their servers) that has been uploaded by the services users as long as the operators are responsive to lawful requests to remove infringing copyrighted works when requested by the copyright owners.

As it is users that are uploading decals to the GTS website Polyphony Digital are not liable for the copyright infringements while they remove copyrighted content at the request of the copyright owner (this is often why decals often disappear; the copyright owner has requested their works be removed).

What article 11/13 aim to do is codify in law the requirement to remove copyrighted works when lawfully requested. At the minute, complying with a removal request is entirely voluntary, but most website/service owners/operators err on the side of caution and comply anyway to avoid lengthy and often very costly court proceedings. Article 11/13 was an attempt to "head off" those proceedings and give copyright holders further court "ammunition" for the hold-outs that still refused to comply. However, due to its poor drafting it would have done much more than that and so thats why European MPs voted against it. It will be re-worked and comes before the European Parliament again in September.

For more: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/05/eu_copyright_vote/

EDIT:
[1] That are not licenced and provided directly by PD.
 
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Liveries are shared online, is this not for critique/review?
 
VXR
Liveries are shared online, is this not for critique/review?
Liveries aren't the problem per se, if they contained only original user generated content. But what do the vast majority contain in their constituent parts? Copyrighted logos/imagery. That alone is copyright infringement whether its part of a livery or not.
 
In countries that have robust copyright laws "fair use", or "fair dealing" as its called in the UK, are provisions that allow the use of copyrighted works, without prior permission, for the purpose of non-commercial research/study, criticism or review, or reporting of current events. Some countries, like the US (and certain EU countries where relevant EU directives have been incorporated into national law) allow for parody also; thats how movie studios get away with things like Scary Movie or porn producers get away with their xxx remakes of popular movies.

The use of copyrighted decals in liveries in GTS is not covered by any of the fair use/dealing provisions; It is not non-commercial research/study, it is not criticism or review, it is not reporting of current events and it is not, where applicable, parody. What it is, in the eyes of the law, is pure copyright infringement.

Polyphony Digital are "getting away with it" for the same reason as the likes of YouTube gets away with having copyrighted content uploaded by third parties; there are also laws that indemnify website operators against infringement when reproducing copyrighted material (as thats why they're doing every time a copyrighted image/video is served from their servers) that has been uploaded by the services users as long as the operators are responsive to lawful requests to remove infringing copyrighted works when requested by the copyright owners.
Actually, the use of brand logos in GT Sport liveries could fall under parody - although it would be a bit of a reach on a real livery replica - as parody does not have to be mocking or humorous.

But they definitely fall under the quotation section of the Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014. In essence one may use copyrighted material, including imagery, for the purpose of quotation, without seeking permission, where the use is fair and reasonable. The example often given for "fair and reasonable" in terms of copyright is that it wouldn't replace a commercial sale (so an example of not fair and reasonable would be copying a brand logo and selling it on a T-shirt, replacing a sale of the that brand's own branded T-shirts).

I'm not sure that a direct replica of a race car livery would replace a commercial sale of any of the products on it, and I'm reasonably sure that making your own livery out of brand logos wouldn't either...

... and the latter case falls under "pastiche" of the 2014 regulations, where one may make a composition using items selected from various other sources, or create one in order to imitate someone else's style.

One exception to this would be the use of a logo in a defamatory way, so creating a car with a sportswear brand's logo followed by some text stating that the brand exploits sweatshops in East Asia.


Insofar as UK law on fair use applies to images uploaded to a game owned by a Japanese company.
 
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As it is users that are uploading decals to the GTS website Polyphony Digital are not liable for the copyright infringements while they remove copyrighted content at the request of the copyright owner (this is often why decals often disappear; the copyright owner has requested their works be removed).citation needed

What article 11/13 aim to do is codify in law the requirement to remove copyrighted works when lawfully requested. At the minute, complying with a removal request is entirely voluntary, but most website/service owners/operators err on the side of caution and comply anyway to avoid lengthy and often very costly court proceedings. Article 11/13 was an attempt to "head off" those proceedings and give copyright holders further court "ammunition" for the hold-outs that still refused to comply.
The only time I've seen logos removed is when they are rude or offensive, but you obviously have insider knowledge.

But how does this change anything for us? If logos are being removed right now at the request of the copyright holder and, if this law comes in in the future, it will allow logos to be removed by their copyright holders, how does it affect what happens with logos in GTS?
 
Actually, the use of brand logos in GT Sport liveries could fall under parody - although it would be a bit of a reach on a real livery replica - as parody does not have to be mocking or humorous. But they definitely fall under the quotation section of the Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014.
Completely and utterly wrong, that is simply not how copyright law works. For a start no court, in the UK or elsewhere with robust copyright laws, would consider a copyrighted image to be a quotation.

This is a quote (as text):

"In addition to other prohibitions as set forth in the Terms of Service, you are prohibited from using the site or its content: (a) for any unlawful purpose; (b) to solicit others to perform or participate in any unlawful acts; (c) to violate any international, federal, provincial or state regulations, rules, laws, or local ordinances; (d) to infringe upon or violate our intellectual property rights or the intellectual property rights of others;"

This is a quote (as an image):

upload_2018-7-7_0-35-16.png


This is not a quote:

upload_2018-7-7_0-14-40.png


This is also not a quote:

upload_2018-7-7_0-7-53.png


Care to guess which two are copyright infringement and which two are not?

If you say none are infringing; you are completely wrong. If you say the logos are infringing but the quotes are not; you are completely wrong (again).

The text is the intellectual property of someone, as are the images. I'm not sure how many times I'm going to need to repeat this but none of the above uses are for the purpose of non-commercial research/study, criticism or review, reporting of current events, or parody. This post is not non-commercial research/study. This post is not a criticism of the intellectual property it contains. This post is not reporting current events, although it does somewhat pertain to a current event. This post is not a parody.

If you do not understand why I've used a passage from GTPlanets Terms of Service (especially that passage in particular) and why I've used the GTPlanet logo you clearly do not understand copyright law. As I haven't received prior authorisation I've technically committed copyright infringement by quoting the passage warning me against copyright infringement because its not for the purpose of non-commercial research/study, criticism or review, reporting of current events, or parody. Likewise for the logo. (Here's a test for you, ask Jordan if he's cool with me using his logo absolutely anywhere I want, claiming it to be a "quotation", and see what his response is!)

I also used the F1 logo because of how protective and cease-and-decist happy F1 can be over their logo; I personally know someone (who isn't an F1 team, sponsor or connected with the F1 commercial operation in any way) who has permission to use the F1 logo and the conditions of use are very, very restrictive. Again, its use here, in this post, would be considered infringement because the reproduction of their logo, without prior permission, is not for the purpose of non-commercial research/study, criticism or review, reporting of current events, or parody.

Are you getting this yet?


In essence one may use copyrighted material, including imagery, for the purpose of quotation, without seeking permission, where the use is fair and reasonable. The example often given for "fair and reasonable" in terms of copyright is that it wouldn't replace a commercial sale (so an example of not fair and reasonable would be copying a brand logo and selling it on a T-shirt, replacing a sale of the that brand's own branded T-shirts).
Incorrect. And you're also straying into the realm of counterfeit goods which most countries, usually, have their own laws covering such things too. However, ignoring that, I'm going to use your t-shirt scenario as an example:

Imagine, if you will, that Audi does not sell t-shirts with their logo on, so I have 200 t-shirts printed up with the Audi logo, rock up outside an Audi dealership and start giving them away; I'm not making any money and I'm not replacing a commercial sale (as in our imaginary world Audi don't sell t-shirts) so whats the problem? In your world there would be none, but in the real world it would not be covered by fair use, fair dealing or "fair and reasonable" use (or however you want to call it) the fact is that I committed copyright infringement the moment I had the t-shirts printed up, no matter the purpose. The very act of reproducing the logo is copyright infringement. Plain and simple.

Now, if I changed the wording, but retained the type setting, of the Audi logo to say "OLDIE" (insinuating that only old people buy Audis) I would probably be fine as that could be considered parody/pastiche and/or a critique of the brand, and I could even sell them for profit.

This is also how makers of t-shirts that parody the Disney logo (Disney also being a company famously ultra-protective of their logo) get away with not being taken to court; change the Disney wordmark to "Dismal" and that would be considered a parody and/or critique. Having said that if your Disney parody product gains enough traction/popularity you'd still probably find yourself in court, even though what you've done is technically legal, but the point is they can afford a lengthy court case even though they know they're not going to win, most people (especially people selling silly parody stuff) cannot so don't take the risk.

(Incidentally this is what Disney did to Deadmau5 over the similarity of his 2D mouse head logo and Disneys 2D Mickey Mouse head logo; the difference here is Deadmau5 had the resources to see the case through and win).

If you want a real world test of this, go and ask Jordan if I can print up bumper stickers with the GTPlanet logo (his intellectual property) to sell for profit. He's not losing a sale, he doesn't sell bumper stickers, but just see if he's happy with me profiting off his intellectual property? Now ask him what he'd do if I was already doing that (here's a clue: his lawyers would be firing up their "cease and decist" machine pronto!)


I'm not sure that a direct replica of a race car livery would replace a commercial sale of any of the products on it and I'm reasonably sure that making your own livery out of brand logos wouldn't either...
That makes absolutely no sense and you'd probably get a few "is this guy on something?" looks if you tried that defence against copyright infringement in a court of law. Intent, outside of permitted unauthorised usage, or "not losing a sale" is completely irrelevant; copyright infringement is copyright infringement.


... and the latter case falls under "pastiche" of the 2014 regulations, where one may make a composition using items selected from various other sources, or create one in order to imitate someone else's style.
Incorrect. Unless the logos are subtly changed in some way (to be a parody or "pastiche") then it is defacto copyright infringement. There is no getting around this. At all. Use of logos, individually or as part of a greater work (like a livery) without permission is copyright infringement.

Its also worth noting that, in the real world, livery designers will have permission to use manufacturer/sponsor logos as part of the manufacturers/sponsors contract (and technically the design of the overall livery will be copyrighted to the designer unless he is contractually obliged to hand over that right to the client). An individual uploading copyrighted logos for use in recreating a livery in a video game does not have permission to use copyrighted logos by virtue of the original liveries mere existence, copyright simply does not work that way.


One exception to this would be the use of a logo in a defamatory way, so creating a car with a sportswear brand's logo followed by some text stating that the brand exploits sweatshops in East Asia.
Once again, this is simply not true. The use of something derogatory/defamatory in connection with a logo makes it more likely that the company will request their logo be removed, but that doesn't mean that its use without something derogatory/defamatory makes it any less likely or harder to be removed. The point is that the act of uploading the logo (for use by yourself or others) is copyright infringement - end of story - and it is the companies right to allow it to remain or have it removed.


Insofar as UK law on fair use applies to images uploaded to a game owned by a Japanese company.
Sorry, this is also not true. You know international treaties that cover all manner of things between countries are a thing, right? Like international arrest warrants, deportation laws, and copyright infringement to name a few. Very few countries work in complete isolation to all others, our modern economies, like the internet, simply couldn't survive without international cooperation. Also, for countries that don't have applicable treaties some companies have "local offices" for the very purpose of giving them a presence in other countries for the administration of rights, contracts, etc in that jurisdiction.

Lets use the oil company Shell as an example (I can't remember if PD have a licence to use the Shell logo but if they do lets just pretend they don't): If Shell, an Anglo-Dutch company, objected to the use of their logo in the game and there wasn't international treaties between the EU and Japan, Shell would use a "local" office in Japan to use the Japanese legal system to have the logos removed from the game. Then you have to consider that PD is owned by Sony, itself a multinational company that has offices/subsiduaries in the US and Europe who will be governed by local laws and international treaties. This issue is not as clear cut or as simple as you seem to think it is.

And this is all before I get into trademark law; do you want me to go into trademark law?

With all respect you seem to have an "internet expert" understanding of copyright laws which is, usually, complete nonsense. Copyright laws are probably one of the most misunderstood laws pertaining to the internet. Most peoples "knowledge" of copyright laws comes from people who also think they have an idea of copyright law or have a vested interest in their own person interpretation which often has no actual basis in law (think Kim Dot Com here - I've known people to parrot rubbish that he's spouted in the past). Hell, even with power of the information on the internet and its ease of access some people still believe that anything on the internet is "public domain" (it should go without saying that is also not true).

The irony here though is that because I've tried to explain how copyright law actually works this could possibly be considered educational and thus a permitted use of intellectual property without authorisation. Like I said, this issue is not as clear cut or as simple as you seem to think it is.


The only time I've seen logos removed is when they are rude or offensive, but you obviously have insider knowledge.
Search the decals on the GT website for "Pastrana" (as in Travis Pastrana). There used to be a lot of logo's related to him uploaded by quite a few users. Now there are just 2; one being a Nitro Circus logo and the other the number 60 (which I don't ever recall Travis using, although he may have). One day they were there, the next they were gone. The chances of all the various users deleting all the logos at the same time? None.

But how does this change anything for us? If logos are being removed right now at the request of the copyright holder and, if this law comes in in the future, it will allow logos to be removed by their copyright holders, how does it affect what happens with logos in GTS?
At the minute PD are free to ignore the takedown requests until the rights holder either gets bored of sending takedown requests and/or moves to court proceedings. The proposed changes will make the act of ignoring a takedown request illegal. It means PD (as part of the Sony multinational) will have to remove unauthorised content when requested and not wait for lawyers to get involved. Article 11/13 is an attempt to prevent matters getting to the often very expensive trial stage.
 
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I knew I'd regret engaging from the very first word of the previous post...

How about we try that response again, but instead of acting like a vicar talking to a five-year old you act like an adult talking to another adult? And "With all respect" doesn't get you a free pass to then be rude and uncivil (or for doing so before that point). Notice the number of times I questioned your intelligence and experience in my post? Now you try.


The guidance I've seen for Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014 suggest that quotation of an entire copyrighted work - from paintings to logos and anywhere in between - is permitted in circumstances where the work is available to the public, is in context of the new work, and is fair. There's also the guideline that it's to be accompanied by a suitable acknowledgement, but only where practical to do so. That suggests that using an entire, copyrighted brand logo to go onto a vehicle livery, in the context of a virtual sponsor for a virtual race car, is not something for which one would require permission.

Incidentally, we agree on one point. What's "fair" ultimately comes down to the courts, as there's not really a legal definition for it. General public guidance for that states that:

Factors that have been identified by the courts as relevant in determining whether a particular dealing with a work is fair, include: Does using the work affect the market for the original work? If a use of a work acts as a substitute for it, causing the owner to lose revenue, then it is not likely to be fair; Is the amount of the work taken reasonable and appropriate? Was it necessary to use the amount that was taken? Usually only part of a work may be used.
Of course this is not an exhaustive list - that's why it's "guidance" - and it'll always be up to the courts to decide individual cases. The last part is interesting, however in the context of a digital reproduction of a copyrighted logo on a virtual livery, use doesn't affect the market for the original work, doesn't act as a substitute for it, doesn't cause the owner to lose revenue, and the amount used is reasonable, appropriate and necessary.

Should it end up in court, that'll be between whoever thinks their copyright has been infringed and Sony, rather than the player who uploaded the logo.

We've seen that one before, with Virag - and Virag claimed that its logo (used without permission, in context of created a replica of the Monza circuit) made Sony lots of money. That case, brought in the US, was thrown out under the First Amendment, stating that video games, as an expressive medium, were protected by the First - although a personal claim from Mirco Virag over his common law right of publicity survived. I don't recall what happened to that in the end.


Edit: Yeah, I'm sticking with "regret engaging". What a terrible attitude. Perhaps take it to the government and tell them why they're wrong and have only an internet expert's level of knowledge on it.
 
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I knew I'd regret engaging from the very first word of the previous post...

How about we try that response again, but instead of acting like a vicar talking to a five-year old you act like an adult talking to another adult? And "With all respect" doesn't get you a free pass to then be rude and uncivil (or for doing so before that point). Notice the number of times I questioned your intelligence and experience in my post? Now you try.
Please don't confuse my bluntness for rudeness. If I know something to be wrong I won't sugar coat it, I will state it unequivocally, in no uncertain terms. If it is apparent that you, or anyone else, do not know what they are talking about I will call you, or anyone else, out for it. Don't get me wrong, its not personal, its not an "attack" meant to humiliate you, and I do respect you as a person - you have, thus far, done nothing wrong for me to not to - but that does not mean that I will gladly beat around the bush to spare feelings over something I know to be wrong.

The guidance I've seen for Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014 suggest that quotation of an entire copyrighted work - from paintings to logos and anywhere in between - is permitted in circumstances where the work is available to the public, is in context of the new work, and is fair.
The mistake you appear to be making here is viewing the Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014 Statutory Instrument (SI) as a stand-alone document. The SI only really makes sense when viewed in the wider context of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (the Act) that it amends (the link provided above is to the version of the Act that includes the SI's amendments). The SI has to be viewed with the Act prior to the SI's amendments, as if they were one single document, but its just easier to forget about the SI and refer to the amended Act itself.

Having said that, here's the bad news. Your above statement ("quotation of an entire copyrighted work [...] is permitted in circumstances where the work is available to the public, is in context of the new work and is fair") is, in a general sense in which you seem to be using them, demonstrably not true.

First of all the circumstances you mention, which come from the SI, only pertain to Section 30 of the Act - "Criticism, review, [quotation] and news reporting". Uploading a copyrighted image to a website, regardless of its ultimate use, that falls outside of the scope of criticism, review and news reporting (which use on a livery would fall outside of) is de facto copyright infringement. I'd love to hear your argument how using a copyrighted logo as part of a livery falls under criticism, review and news reporting?

Secondly use of "entire" works in explicitly not permitted; Subsection (1ZA), clause (b) states: "the extent of the quotation is no more than is required by the specific purpose for which it is used". To illustrate this in a practical example: You couldn't upload an entire Star Wars movie to YouTube with a 30 second critique of why a particular scene in the middle doesn't make sense and claim it is "fair use" because the amount of content used would be disproportionate to that which is absolutely necessary. Similarly you couldn't upload an entire 500 page book as a "quote" to a blog just to criticise paragraph 2 on page 183. Again, the amount of content used would be disproportionate to that which is absolutely necessary for the critique.

Here is the full text of Section 30 of the Act (which includes the amendments from the SI) with the most pertinent sections highlighted:

upload_2018-7-7_18-3-52.png


I could go through it subsection-by-subsection and clause-by-clause but that would take too long; hopefully, viewing the amendments in context, along with the highlighted sections for guidance, you'll conclude for yourself why your interpretation of the SI (or the "guidance" you've seen) is wrong.


There's also the guideline that it's to be accompanied by a suitable acknowledgement, but only where practical to do so. That suggests that using an entire, copyrighted brand logo to go onto a vehicle livery, in the context of a virtual sponsor for a virtual race car, is not something for which one would require permission.
Sorry to tell you this but your interpretation of that is also wrong. Not only is it not a "guideline" - its a law - but once again it is only pertinent to the scope of Section 30 of the Act, again, for the purpose of criticism, review and news reporting. Its getting terribly tiresome having to repeat myself but uploading a copyrighted logo to a website (even with acknowledgement) for use on a livery does not fall under the scope of criticism, review and news reporting. How many times am I going to have to repeat that?

Again, lets look at the SI's amendments, in place, in the Act:

upload_2018-7-7_19-17-17.png


The amendments in the SI are not the magic-bullet-get-out-of-jail-free-card you think they are.


Incidentally, we agree on one point. What's "fair" ultimately comes down to the courts, as there's not really a legal definition for it.
Wrong. The Act has already defined what is, and isn't, fair; courts decide to what degree constitutes fairness. For instance, its already established, in section 30, that its fair to use a quotation of "no more than is required", it is up to the courts to decide, on a case-by-case basis, what constitutes a "required" amount. This is not a subject where a hard-and-fast rule can enter into case law and then be used as a reference for all other similar instances.


Of course this is not an exhaustive list - that's why it's "guidance" - and it'll always be up to the courts to decide individual cases. The last part is interesting, however in the context of a digital reproduction of a copyrighted logo on a virtual livery, use doesn't affect the market for the original work, doesn't act as a substitute for it, doesn't cause the owner to lose revenue, and the amount used is reasonable, appropriate and necessary.
I'm not entirely sure where you have got this "doesn't cause the owner to lose revenue" stuff from as it doesn't feature in the SI or the Act. I suspect you've suddenly switched to US law (as I believe thats where that it is from), without stating you have done so, to intentionally fudge the issue in support of your own argument. If it is from UK legislation I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of the relevant Act and the section that contains it.

However, until you provide me with that information, and now the the subject of US law has been raised...


Should it end up in court, that'll be between whoever thinks their copyright has been infringed and Sony, rather than the player who uploaded the logo.
I'm sorry - and please don't confuse my bluntness for rudeness - but you are completely, totally and laughably incorrect, and that statement unequivocally reveals your lack of knowledge of this subject.

To see why lets examine Sony's own terms and conditions:

upload_2018-7-7_15-33-31.png


Although it doesn't directly state it the last line of section 4 ("All User Generated Content made available on our Sites is the sole responsibility of the person who provided it.") is a simplified version of rules laid out in the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) which is applicable here as Sony's network, for the purpose of law jurisdiction, is US based; As long as the site owner, in this instance Sony, is in compliance with the DMCA it cannot be held responsible for User Generated Content (UGC).

In Section 5 Sony provides a mechanism to resolve copyright infringement claims in accordance with the DMCA. This mechanism is a requirement of the DMCA, the provisioning of which then confers the protection, stated in Section 4, against UGC copyright infringement to site owners. As long as Sony complies with lawful DMCA take-down requests it will not find itself in court regarding UGC copyright infringement.

The only time it becomes Sony's problem, with the possibility of Sony's lawyers finding themselves in front of a judge, is if they fail to comply with lawful take-down requests; in that instance they lose the DMCA's UGC protection stated in Section 4 and then become liable for the infringement themselves.

This is exactly how YouTube survives in the face of the petabytes of copyright infringing UGC that they hold; as long as they provide a mechanism to file copyright infringement claims, and comply with lawful takedown requests, they are protected, by the DMCA, against copyright infringement by their users.

Now I know you're probably thinking: "but the DMCA is an American law, it only applies in America", but that is not strictly true either. Due to the global nature of the internet, many companies (especially multi-nationals) outside of the US have become DMCA compliant because their site is ultimately available in the US and, if they want to operate lawfully, must comply with US laws. This works the other way too; many services outside of the EU have complied with the EU's new (as of 2018) General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) to lawfully offer their services within the EU.

EDIT: Even if websites comply with lawful take-down requests copyright holders can go after repeat offenders who keep persistantly reuploading copyrighted content by way of a court issued subpoena for the service users IP address from the website and a physical address related to that IP from the Internet Service Provider.

Now, in the face of completely contradictory evidence, do you still stand by your statement that copyright disputes are only between the site/service owner and the copyright holder?



We've seen that one before, with Virag - and Virag claimed that its logo (used without permission, in context of created a replica of the Monza circuit) made Sony lots of money. That case, brought in the US, was thrown out under the First Amendment, stating that video games, as an expressive medium, were protected by the First - although a personal claim from Mirco Virag over his common law right of publicity survived. I don't recall what happened to that in the end.

From what I can gather, from the snippets of that old case I can find online, it was a trademark suit, not copyright, and Sony won that case primarily because they had permission (a licence) to 3D scan and photograph anything in situ at the track for their "artistic" representation of the track. If PD had of used the Virag logo at a track (real or fantasy) other than Monza Sony would have, without a shadow of a doubt, lost the case as its use would be out of context and not actually part of the artistic representation of a place it was creating.

This is the reason why you and I can walk around (in the UK at least, although US laws are very similar) taking pictures of anything in public, or in/on private property with permission, and exhibit or sell those pictures (regardless of trademark or copyright law). I'll give you two examples:
  1. If you or I took an amazing race picture at Monza, in which Virags logo was visible, that went on to sell thousands of copies and made you or I a fortune there is not a thing, as the above case proves, that Virag could do; its an artistic representation in which the Virag logo is publicly visible (and , in UK law, incidental).
  2. If you or I took a series of photos of (publicly visible) McDonalds signs and exhibited/sold them there is not a thing McDonalds could do, although they could try, as its an artistic representation of something in a public place which there is an implicit permission to photograph.
The point is PD had permission, from the Monza management, to scan/photograph anything that is on their property and US law allows them to do so as its protected as an artistic en devour (just like the photo examples I gave above). There is also another important distinction to be made here; as far as I can tell Virag wasn't attempting to have its logo removed from the game, it (mistakenly) saw an opportunity for an easy pay-day and summarily had its ass handed to it (no doubt due to the "advice" of a parasitic lawyer who will tell potential clients anything they want to hear because lawyers get paid win or lose).
 
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Please don't confuse my bluntness for rudeness. If I know something to be wrong I won't sugar coat it, I will state it unequivocally, in no uncertain terms. If it is apparent that you, or anyone else, do not know what they are talking about I will call you, or anyone else, out for it. Don't get me wrong, its not personal, its not an "attack" meant to humiliate you, and I do respect you as a person - you have, thus far, done nothing wrong for me to not to - but that does not mean that I will gladly beat around the bush to spare feelings over something I know to be wrong.


The mistake you appear to be making here is viewing the Copyright and Rights in Performances (Quotation and Parody) Regulations 2014 Statutory Instrument (SI) as a stand-alone document. The SI only really makes sense when viewed in the wider context of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 (the Act) that it amends (the link provided above is to the version of the Act that includes the SI's amendments). The SI has to be viewed with the Act prior to the SI's amendments, as if they were one single document, but its just easier to forget about the SI and refer to the amended Act itself.

Having said that, here's the bad news. Your above statement ("quotation of an entire copyrighted work [...] is permitted in circumstances where the work is available to the public, is in context of the new work and is fair") is, in a general sense in which you seem to be using them, demonstrably not true.

First of all the circumstances you mention, which come from the SI, only pertain to Section 30 of the Act - "Criticism, review, [quotation] and news reporting". Uploading a copyrighted image to a website, regardless of its ultimate use, that falls outside of the scope of criticism, review and news reporting (which use on a livery would fall outside of) is de facto copyright infringement. I'd love to hear your argument how using a copyrighted logo as part of a livery falls under criticism, review and news reporting?

Secondly use of "entire" works in explicitly not permitted; Subsection (1ZA), clause (b) states: "the extent of the quotation is no more than is required by the specific purpose for which it is used". To illustrate this in a practical example: You couldn't upload an entire Star Wars movie to YouTube with a 30 second critique of why a particular scene in the middle doesn't make sense and claim it is "fair use" because the amount of content used would be disproportionate to that which is absolutely necessary. Similarly you couldn't upload an entire 500 page book as a "quote" to a blog just to criticise paragraph 2 on page 183. Again, the amount of content used would be disproportionate to that which is absolutely necessary for the critique.

Here is the full text of Section 30 of the Act (which includes the amendments from the SI) with the most pertinent sections highlighted:

View attachment 749706

I could go through it subsection-by-subsection and clause-by-clause but that would take too long; hopefully, viewing the amendments in context, along with the highlighted sections for guidance, you'll conclude for yourself why your interpretation of the SI (or the "guidance" you've seen) is wrong.



Sorry to tell you this but your interpretation of that is also wrong. Not only is it not a "guideline" - its a law - but once again it is only pertinent to the scope of Section 30 of the Act, again, for the purpose of criticism, review and news reporting. Its getting terribly tiresome having to repeat myself but uploading a copyrighted logo to a website (even with acknowledgement) for use on a livery does not fall under the scope of criticism, review and news reporting. How many times am I going to have to repeat that?

Again, lets look at the SI's amendments, in place, in the Act:

View attachment 749718


The amendments in the SI are not the magic-bullet-get-out-of-jail-free-card you think they are.



Wrong. The Act has already defined what is, and isn't, fair; courts decide to what degree constitutes fairness. For instance, its already established, in section 30, that its fair to use a quotation of "no more than is required", it is up to the courts to decide, on a case-by-case basis, what constitutes a "required" amount. This is not a subject where a hard-and-fast rule can enter into case law and then be used as a reference for all other similar instances.



I'm not entirely sure where you have got this "doesn't cause the owner to lose revenue" stuff from as it doesn't feature in the SI or the Act. I suspect you've suddenly switched to US law (as I believe thats where that it is from), without stating you have done so, to intentionally fudge the issue in support of your own argument. If it is from UK legislation I'd be grateful if you could point me in the direction of the relevant Act and the section that contains it.

However, until you provide me with that information, and now the the subject of US law has been raised...



I'm sorry - and please don't confuse my bluntness for rudeness - but you are completely, totally and laughably incorrect, and that statement unequivocally reveals your lack of knowledge of this subject.

To see why lets examine Sony's own terms and conditions:

View attachment 749690

Although it doesn't directly state it the last line of section 4 ("All User Generated Content made available on our Sites is the sole responsibility of the person who provided it.") is a simplified version of rules laid out in the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) which is applicable here as Sony's network, for the purpose of law jurisdiction, is US based; As long as the site owner, in this instance Sony, is in compliance with the DMCA it cannot be held responsible for User Generated Content (UGC).

In Section 5 Sony provides a mechanism to resolve copyright infringement claims in accordance with the DMCA. This mechanism is a requirement of the DMCA, the provisioning of which then confers the protection, stated in Section 4, against UGC copyright infringement to site owners. As long as Sony complies with lawful DMCA take-down requests it will not find itself in court regarding UGC copyright infringement.

The only time it becomes Sony's problem, with the possibility of Sony's lawyers finding themselves in front of a judge, is if they fail to comply with lawful take-down requests; in that instance they lose the DMCA's UGC protection stated in Section 4 and then become liable for the infringement themselves.

This is exactly how YouTube survives in the face of the petabytes of copyright infringing UGC that they hold; as long as they provide a mechanism to file copyright infringement claims, and comply with lawful takedown requests, they are protected, by the DMCA, against copyright infringement by their users.

Now I know you're probably thinking: "but the DMCA is an American law, it only applies in America", but that is not strictly true either. Due to the global nature of the internet, many companies (especially multi-nationals) outside of the US have become DMCA compliant because their site is ultimately available in the US and, if they want to operate lawfully, must comply with US laws. This works the other way too; many services outside of the EU have complied with the EU's new (as of 2018) General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) to lawfully offer their services within the EU.

Now, in the face of completely contradictory evidence, do you still stand by your statement that copyright disputes are only between the site/service owner and the copyright holder?





From what I can gather, from the snippets of that old case I can find online, it was a trademark suit, not copyright, and Sony won that case primarily because they had permission (a licence) to 3D scan and photograph anything in situ at the track for their "artistic" representation of the track. If PD had of used the Virag logo at a track (real or fantasy) other than Monza Sony would have, without a shadow of a doubt, lost the case as its use would be out of context and not actually part of the artistic representation of a place it was creating.

This is the reason why you and I can walk around (in the UK at least, although US laws are very similar) taking pictures of anything in public, or in/on private property with permission, and exhibit or sell those pictures (regardless of trademark or copyright law). I'll give you two examples:
  1. If you or I took an amazing race picture at Monza, in which Virags logo was visible, that went on to sell thousands of copies and made you or I a fortune there is not a thing, as the above case proves, that Virag could do; its an artistic representation in which the Virag logo is publicly visible (and , in UK law, incidental).
  2. If you or I took a series of photos of (publicly visible) McDonalds signs and exhibited/sold them there is not a thing McDonalds could do, although they could try, as its an artistic representation of something in a public place which there is an implicit permission to photograph.
The point is PD had permission, from the Monza management, to scan/photograph anything that is on their property and US law allows them to do so as its protected as an artistic en devour (just like the photo examples I gave above). There is also another important distinction to be made here; as far as I can tell Virag wasn't attempting to have its logo removed from the game, it (mistakenly) saw an opportunity for an easy pay-day and summarily had its ass handed to it (no doubt due to the "advice" of a parasitic lawyer who will tell potential clients anything they want to hear because lawyers get paid win or lose).
Lawyer much?
 
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