Incident in the Daily N300, was I at fault?

[Guffaluff]

Hey all.

I was doing the one make race in the Renault at Yamagiwa today. I'm DR D, SR C, and so were all the other racers in this race.

I qualified 2nd and kept it at first, but in lap 2 this happens:



Note that this is seen from the chase cam of the other guy.

Ok granted, I could've gone a little faster through this section, but I had the line. The guy in 3rd gets ghosted before what would have been a fairly hard bump on me, but gets de-ghosted at a very unfortunate time, as evident in the video.

I was penalized 10sec for this. I can't say for sure, but I don't think the other guy got any penalty for this. I knew right there I didn´t have a chance of trying to earn back my 2nd place since I had to run down my penalty.

Another thing. This was the only contact I had with another driver in this 3 lap race and I didn't go off track at all. All other sectors came back with a green SR icon, but still at the final screen of the race my driver rating was lowered. Not down a class, but still lower, shown with a red letter. Isn't that a bit unfair?

Despite this it was a fun race and I'm happy with a top 3 finish despite a 10sec penalty.

What do you guys think? Was I to blame here? Anyone have similar experience? I'd love some input on this =)

For the record, this is not meant as a rant on the Sport Mode, as my experience with it has been very positive! . Just wanted to hear you guy's thoughts on this.

 

[qwbufp]

I think he was surprised by your speed. I’d blame him though. The was no gap and he clearly cut the corner. You got the penalty most probably because you were turning in towards his car. That’s my take on this incident.

It’s hard to react with a FF car. I guess he took the easy route instead of slowing down or try to go outside to avoid your car.

 

[rono_thomas]

Think the game has gone a bit wonky, but your defo not at fault (you start off in 2nd?)

 

[Guffaluff]

I think he was surprised by your speed. I’d blame him though. The was no gap and he clearly cut the corner. You got the penalty most probably because you were turning in towards his car. That’s my take on this incident.

Yeah that's my thought as well. I could've been faster through the corner, but it's his responsibility to be aware, it's not like I was slamming the breaks

Think the game has gone a bit wonky, but your defo not at fault (you start off in 2nd?)

Yeah, this looked a bit glitchy, and I felt the other guy should've been ghosted for a bit longer. I'd prefer taking the bump rather than have this happen .

Wasn't a big deal though, just a little bummed not to keep my 2nd place. Feel like I would've kept it if this hadn't happen . And yes, I started 2nd.

 

[Tekku]

Not at fault. And Yamagiwa could really use some harsher penalties for corner cutting. Especially at that section because everyone drives it horribly.

 

[zzz_pt]

Peoject Cars 2 track limit penalties would be fair on this track. Everyone (me included) has to put 2 wheels on the grass through several corners in order to be competitive.

 

[Adrenaline]

I will be in the minority, but I feel you are at fault, although that's likely too harsh of a term here. I believe you are the root cause of the contact, but I wouldn't 'blame' you for it. It appears to be a racing incident, where no one is to blame, **** just happens. It looks like you threw the car in park down a a high speed portion of the track, the rate in which the gap was closed between you was blatant, and he would have clearly made the corner, to my eyes at least. Which means, if I were the back car (in real time), my gut reaction is that you tried to brake check.

With the ability to watch the video a few times, and in slow motion, it looks like you clipped the first curb on the right, and started to lose grip. You let off to collect the car, and corrected to the opposite direction. From here, you were sliding back the other direction even before he unghosted, which is the real key to me in this clip. Because you were already fish-tailing back to the left before he touched you, it leads me to believe you were the out of control car. Now, he appears to veer left to avoid you, and then is ghosted. At this point, he likely thought he was going to get lucky and be able to ghost right through you, and then started to make his entry into the second part of the turn. But... the game had a different plan, and as you already admitted he unghosted at an unfortunate time, and it lead to the collision.

I don't think 'fault' or 'blame' lies with either driver, but the bottom line, is that you were the driver who made the mistake that lead to the collision. Not in malice, not on purpose, but if we're being honest, your slip up is what lead to that incident. While racing that close together, and the small gap between you, it's unrealistic to expect him to have been able to react faster or better than he did, without completely wrecking his own car, just to account for the mistake you made.

99% of the people on the forum though, will say the guy behind you was dirty, and he owes you the entire track, no matter what mistake you made, or how slow you're going, that the SR system is broke because he wrecked you and got no penalty while you did... but in this scenario, I disagree.

Long story short, if he wasn't on the track, it appears you would have over corrected your car right into the left wall based on what I see. No blame, no fault, just a racing incident.

 

[rono_thomas]

I will be in the minority, but I feel you are at fault, although that's likely too harsh of a term here. I believe you are the root cause of the contact, but I wouldn't 'blame' you for it. It appears to be a racing incident, where no one is to blame, **** just happens. It looks like you threw the car in park down a a high speed portion of the track, the rate in which the gap was closed between you was blatant, and he would have clearly made the corner, to my eyes at least. Which means, if I were the back car (in real time), my gut reaction is that you tried to brake check.

With the ability to watch the video a few times, and in slow motion, it looks like you clipped the first curb on the right, and started to lose grip. You let off to collect the car, and corrected to the opposite direction. From here, you were sliding back the other direction even before he unghosted, which is the real key to me in this clip. Because you were already fish-tailing back to the left before he touched you, it leads me to believe you were the out of control car. Now, he appears to veer left to avoid you, and then is ghosted. At this point, he likely thought he was going to get lucky and be able to ghost right through you, and then started to make his entry into the second part of the turn. But... the game had a different plan, and as you already admitted he unghosted at an unfortunate time, and it lead to the collision.

I don't think 'fault' or 'blame' lies with either driver, but the bottom line, is that you were the driver who made the mistake that lead to the collision. Not in malice, not on purpose, but if we're being honest, your slip up is what lead to that incident. While racing that close together, and the small gap between you, it's unrealistic to expect him to have been able to react faster or better than he did, without completely wrecking his own car, just to account for the mistake you made.

99% of the people on the forum though, will say the guy behind you was dirty, and he owes you the entire track, no matter what mistake you made, or how slow you're going, that the SR system is broke because he wrecked you and got no penalty while you did... but in this scenario, I disagree.

Long story short, if he wasn't on the track, it appears you would have over corrected your car right into the left wall based on what I see. No blame, no fault, just a racing incident.

You are wrong, it matters not how quick the car in front is going ever

As you can see car behind has ghosted first on a straight part of track without ghosting, which is not in the higher ranked lobbies this would have been a rear end.

Your applying real world rules to a ghosting car, he has to overtake without hitting.

This begins as an avoidable collision because the following car is driving as the lower safety ranks do, he is not recognising that the car in front has got it wrong and carries to much speed to be able to avoid him, hence the ghost.

 

[CopperySinger]

Unfortunately both at fault, it seems you was about to miss your turn and the guy behind rushed in dive bombing, cutting corners; as you turned sharply and a tad late.

If i had to pick one, you would be safe and I would give the traffic ticket to the guy behind you and the guy in the white car way ahead because they both cut the corners.

It is best to qualify on the track first until you know it completely, this way you will have a more steady experience in the race. Good luck!

 

[Ledbetter]

Here's an interesting paradox. The "Sportsmanship Video" suggests that you should leave the race course rather than interfere with another driver, but if you do, you get a 10 second penalty.

Should one of the drivers in this video have left the course to keep from wrecking another car?

 

[RotorHed]

After he de-ghosted (ghosting was caused by him hitting you from behind but whatever) it looked to me like you realised he was going to pass you there and deliberately turned in to block/hit him. Your turn doesn’t seem to follow a natural line from that point.

That’s how it looked to me - I guess the game thought the same and gave you the SR hit and penalty.

 

[Lion-Face]

I believe it is a fault of the driver behind. That is a single line corner, and unless you are beside the car going into that corner, there isn't any way you will get past cleanly. The driver behind should have slowed and stayed behind you.

You would have received the penalty, I believe from my understanding of the penalty system, because there was contact between two cars, one car went off the track, and thus the game gives a penalty to the other driver. Unfortunate, and worked in his favour this time.

 

[DriftMethod]

It seems clear to me that you were trying to stay on the racing line without cutting the corners. That first white car clearly cut the corner. Based on the speed and angle, I would guess the car behind you wouldn't have made it cleanly through the two corners without cutting as well. So I wouldn't blame you at all in this situation. Had you gone way off line, that would be a different story. Even the best drivers make mistakes. The main thing is you were attempting to stay on the racing line and I don't believe the other drivers were.

Also, all of this happened within about 2 seconds, and the time that either of you had to react was a small fraction of that. So to answer Ledbetter's question, it would be difficult for either of them to have created enough room to avoid a collision.

Maybe track limits are the real issue here. If everyone is cutting the corners and not getting penalized, then should you do the same? You may have heard the quote, "There are two types of racers- cheaters and losers."

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

when i'm in front i run my hot lap line (3 wheels in the dirt, barely breaking, etc). when i'm right behind somone i run my safety line (follow brake markers, stay off the curb, etc).

this footage was the complete opposite. you were running a slow conservative line without holding a solid defensive position and he was trying to beat an offline mission trial time.

 

[RotorHed]

I believe it is a fault of the driver behind. That is a single line corner, and unless you are beside the car going into that corner, there isn't any way you will get past cleanly. The driver behind should have slowed and stayed behind you.
.

I think it’s best if we get away from this idea that there is some special line on the track.

There’re comments all over the board saying “can’t overtake here” or “that’s not the right line”. These comments are misleading.

Firstly, the only rule is that drivers must attempt to stay on track at all times. Where they go on the track is up to them with exception of when a faster car is passing at which point the slower car has rules about how they may manoeuvre and how much room they must leave.

Secondly the concept of a racing line is important in pro racing series because the drivers and cars are closely matched - a small deviation from the ideal line will cost relative time. In GTS at the moment the spread of lap times is relatively huge - sometimes more than 10 seconds dividing the Q times (and those don’t represent the consistent speed of the driver during a race).

With the massive speed differentials, a faster car may be able to pass in places where normal racing practice might normally make it impossible.

So to say “you can’t pass there” isn’t a valid answer to manoeuvres like those in this video and elsewhere.

 

[Lion-Face]

I think it’s best if we get away from this idea that there is some special line on the track.

There’re comments all over the board saying “can’t overtake here” or “that’s not the right line”. These comments are misleading.

Firstly, the only rule is that drivers must attempt to stay on track at all times. Where they go on the track is up to them with exception of when a faster car is passing at which point the slower car has rules about how they may manoeuvre and how much room they must leave.

Secondly the concept of a racing line is important in pro racing series because the drivers and cars are closely matched - a small deviation from the ideal line will cost relative time. In GTS at the moment the spread of lap times is relatively huge - sometimes more than 10 seconds dividing the Q times (and those don’t represent the consistent speed of the driver during a race).

With the massive speed differentials, a faster car may be able to pass in places where normal racing practice might normally make it impossible.

So to say “you can’t pass there” isn’t a valid answer to manoeuvres like those in this video and elsewhere.

I'm well aware drivers can overtake anywhere on a track and your position is vulnerable at all times. But there is a time for each place that is appropriate to attempt an overtake.

When I say 'that is a single line corner (or in this case, combination of corners)' there is, from apex to apex a long converging line which 2 cars cannot be in the same place. Regardless of how you enter the corner, of which there may be multiple lines of entry depending on car/driver, they will all converge. As I said, unless you are side by side going in, you should remain behind the car.

In this instance, the 3rd place driver was not in any way in an overtake position, and therefore, with the combination of corners coming up, attempting a late dive overtake was always going to end in contact. The 3rd place driver did not hold a great line, nor stay on track, nor make a pass without contact. There are times where an overtake is possible at that corner, and any other corner, but this was not that time. It was a poor move which the offending party got away without penalty.

 

[RotorHed]

I'm well aware drivers can overtake anywhere on a track and your position is vulnerable at all times. But there is a time for each place that is appropriate to attempt an overtake.

When I say 'that is a single line corner (or in this case, combination of corners)' there is, from apex to apex a long converging line which 2 cars cannot be in the same place. Regardless of how you enter the corner, of which there may be multiple lines of entry depending on car/driver, they will all converge. As I said, unless you are side by side going in, you should remain behind the car.

In this instance, the 3rd place driver was not in any way in an overtake position, and therefore, with the combination of corners coming up, attempting a late dive overtake was always going to end in contact. The 3rd place driver did not hold a great line, nor stay on track, nor make a pass without contact. There are times where an overtake is possible at that corner, and any other corner, but this was not that time. It was a poor move which the offending party got away without penalty.

It’s not this particular incident I’m concerned with.

It’s the principle you stated that there is “one line” - geometrically speaking you may be right but the line you drew is arbitrary. The FIA rules do not agree with your opinion or enforce this ”line”, drivers are allowed to drive anywhere on the track. This matters because GTS pick up races don’t support this “racing line pass points” either due to the variability between drivers.

Anyway, once people realise that there is no enforced line and they are not entitled to a particular corner just because of being on some fabricated line, then perhaps they’ll race better and more enjoyably by being aware they may be passed at any point.

 

[JulesDennis]

I think both of you are at "fault" here.
He made a high risk/low reward move here,expecting that you would not turn on him in the very last moment.
You actually did that.Pretty much you went for the apex in a very "weird" angle.You should have kept your line.
But either way,imo,you both did mistakes there.

 

[rono_thomas]

Im confused by this guys really I am.

Had this been an SR S Lobby this would have been the following car rear ending the car in front. This situation wouldn’t have ghosted.

This is a dive-bomb facilitated by a ghost, and as has been mentioned, this car and corner combo its next to impossible to assume track postion to attempt a pass.

I raced this a lot yesterday and for those that attempted a pass it went wrong everytime.

The game has gone wonky it ghosted a car for a split second and then unghosted when two cars are trying to occupy the same portion of track, either ghost a car or not.

 

[JacksHerer]

OMG this video has opened my eyes to track cutting, I would like the game to recognise people cutting corners and disqualify them or give them huge time penalties that they cant burn off. At present the burn off penalties can clearly be abused by cheaters.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

Regarding the racing line, if I had been alone on track in qualifying mode so to say, I'd have had two ( not one ) wheel on track.
What is track ? To me, ideally two wheels within the white line, at least on the curbs ( which is quite a bit of a difference here I admit ).
The OP choose a very conservative and therefore slow approach which costs even more time in the following uphill section.
For P3 this must have been annoying but is no reason though to take such a risk of running into the car ahead ( which probably would have happened anyway if the OP had gone for a straighter line ). P3 is no short-cutter btw imo, he would have made it.
If I had been P3, I ( guess I ) would have backed up a bit before to set me up for the following section leading to the long right sweeper.

 

[coltsjugg]

I doubt that guy would of made the corner.

 

[ROCKET JOE]

I doubt that guy would of made the corner.

Always a bit hard judging by these vids but I think he would have. He maybe would have run into the fence to the left later but that's another story .

 

[stevenhiggster]

Imho you could have taken the corner a lot faster and thus your speed (or lack thereof) surprised the muppet behind you.
The collision is entirely his fault though as others have said, it matters not what speed you are going unless of course you brake dangerously early or on a straight, it's up to the chasing car to make sure he doesn't hit you.
You got a penalty because when he unghosted you tapped his rear quarter, which wouldn't have happened had he not ghosted straight through you anyway!
So yes you are right to feel aggrieved in this instance.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Not a big fan of ghosting/de-ghosting mid corner. Makes it almost impossible to tell when to commit to the corner or not.

 

[ferreira]

The guy behind shouldn't have been going so fast. He missed the breaking zone and was never going to make it through there legally, if not for your nudge.

I would have said that you shouldn't have turned into him and should have known where he was going to be, but that wouldn't be fair as he was in the wrong and had ghosted. I'm guessing the game decided you were at fault, as you were technically a nose behind at the apex and his car suddenly un-ghosted.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

The guy behind shouldn't have been going so fast. He missed the breaking zone and was never going to make it through there legally, if not for your nudge.

I would have said that you shouldn't have turned into him and should have known where he was going to be, but that wouldn't be fair as he was in the wrong and had ghosted. I'm guessing the game decided you were at fault, as you were technically a nose behind at the apex and his car suddenly un-ghosted.

the fastest line through there is just a lift off on the throttle and then ride the curbs flat out like they were monorails. he could have made it legally and if the OP didn't suddenly oversteer and bump him he might have made it. I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and I'm assuming he just lost control but if I was that driver I would have seen it as a brake check, followed up by an intentional closing of the inside line. OP should have left 3/4 of a car width since he wasn't on the inside line anyways.

 

[rono_thomas]

the fastest line through there is just a lift off on the throttle and then ride the curbs flat out like they were monorails. he could have made it legally and if the OP didn't suddenly oversteer and bump him he might have made it. I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt and I'm assuming he just lost control but if I was that driver I would have seen it as a brake check, followed up by an intentional closing of the inside line. OP should have left 3/4 of a car width since he wasn't on the inside line anyways.

He got there by driving through the car.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

View attachment 689983



He got there by driving through the car.

Yeah, the car that brake checked him in the middle of the track. He clearly thought that the OP was going to run an aggressive line like he was.

 

[rono_thomas]

Yeah, the car that brake checked him in the middle of the track. He clearly thought that the OP was going to run an aggressive line like he was.

Breaks are first on as in the picture above, and on continuously till change of direction, that is not a break check, that is the car behind not applying his breaks sufficiently to slow for the car in front. The car in front chooses the speed.

If you watch the video again the car in front has breaks on for full 2 secs whilst the following car dabs his for a few tenths.

This is the following car getting it wrong.