Is it driver error, or oversteer and understeer?

[racer39658]

Hello gtplanet community,

I have been trying to write reviews for some of the great tunes in the tuner forum, and I find myself struggling to describe cars in terms of understeer and oversteer.

For me, if the car turns too much and cuts the inside, it means I'm not going fast enough. If the car drifts wide going in, I'm braking too late. If it goes wide mid-corner, I'm going too fast. And if it drifts wide on the exit, I am on the gas too early.

How can you tell when the cornering action is the car, rather than the driver? In my reviews, I talk about corner speed, as that is what seems concrete to me: how fast the car can go through a corner without losing control or leaving the track. The way people tend to describe over and under steer sounds, to me, more like wrong corner speed or technique.

So, could anyone help describe how to tell if it's the properties of the car, or the actions of the driver, that cause cornering problems?

(I tried to search, but just found many many many posts where oversteer and understeer were used to describe a car. It might be poor search-fu)

 

[D_M]

The tunes are only baselines. You have to tweak each tune to your reaction time. It's always a combination of driver and car.

 

[racer39658]

I understand that... but at what point do you decide the car has oversteer, rather than it being driver error, for example? When do you decide it's your car that needs adjusted, rather than your racing line?

 

[JJ72]

under and oversteer can be driver induced and driver error, so until you full understand what you are doing and how it affects the car, it is very hard to tell the true characteristic of a car.

Once you get pass that and can drive the car naturally, you will be able to tell the car's real characteristic.

you can only rely on more skillful driver's observation to tell you whether it is you or the car, if you feel confused. You will gradually become less confused once you become a better driver yourself.

not very helpful I know, but there are things that you can only learn from experience, and observing how yourself drive corner per corner, but not from talk.

 

[D_M]

I understand that... but at what point do you decide the car has oversteer, rather than it being driver error, for example? When do you decide it's your car that needs adjusted, rather than your racing line?

People always complain about the racing line, but it's good for setting up your car. Try to paint the driving line, while going as fast as possible. Don't use the line for braking, just for the racing line. Now you have a visual, not that imaginary line in your head. Being able to put the car where you want it, is the key. So if you can paint the blue line, you'll be able to put the car on the imaginary line in your head.

 

[racer39658]

OK, so when someone on the forum describes a car as having too much understeer, does it mean that they are failing to adjust their line to the car? Or is there a problem with the car? That's the fine line I'm trying to get help with.

I'm an experienced racer, but in real racing (granted, on a motorcycle) as well as video game racing, I've always adjusted my line to the vehicle. For example, in a car that tends to go wide on throttle leaving a turn due to high HP and acceleration, I square off the corner and go with a late apex (or, in a long turn, a double apex).

 

[JJ72]

when someone describe a car as having too much understeer, it means the car could be a lot faster if the driver doesn't have to compensate for it. It means if the understeer is less severe, a more ideal line could be ran and the car's overall potential could be better exploited.

While what is ideal is track dependent, a section of a track might demand a certain handling behavior, if the car doesn't naturally perform that way, you are having handling problems, while drivers can still adjust their line, they are inevitably using a less than ideal line, when a change in the car's balance can easily remedy it.

I hope you understands it.

 

[sam_i_am]

The way I look at it is what happens when you push a car beyond its grip. When you take a corner at a speed that it cannot handle, does the front wheels lose traction and the car go wide or does the rear wheels lose traction and the back end steps out?

In other words, when you fail to adjust your line, does the car go wide or does it spin?

PS: I only play a racer in GT5 and not that well either

Edit: Just to clarify, oversteer and understeer are attributes of a given car. Adjusting your line is what you do to get around those limitations.

 

[D_M]

OK, so when someone on the forum describes a car as having too much understeer, does it mean that they are failing to adjust their line to the car? Or is there a problem with the car? That's the fine line I'm trying to get help with.

I'm an experienced racer, but in real racing (granted, on a motorcycle) as well as video game racing, I've always adjusted my line to the vehicle. For example, in a car that tends to go wide on throttle leaving a turn due to high HP and acceleration, I square off the corner and go with a late apex.

The good thing is you have tons of levers in the virtual world with unlimited tires, fuel, and track time. Who really knows what someone else means. There are differences that can be attributed to a gamepad, steering wheel, pedal setup, braking pressure, etc..... It's tough to go buy another person's review. Adjust the car until you can set consistant practice times, then take it online. Your bound to find someone running the same car, who is faster, so then you rinse and repeat.

 

[racer39658]

It seems like what you're saying is that, in this game, there is no real understeer or oversteer, it's pretty much a function of wrong line for a particular car?

 

[Hig-GT]

I can only assume I have a feel for the car. You have a specific way of driving, so you should expect that if you go to turn in the car should do a certain thing. I think the best way to judge under and oversteer when you are starting off is to use the gear representation in the bottom right, that will help you be around the right speed for the corner. Once you have got good at that you can try and set the car up to go through the corner a gear higher than represented like I do.

If you turn in smoothly (small adjustments in the corner are fine) and if turn out smoothly and you are gentle on the throttle (depending on car) then your driving is probably 90% fine.

For me when tuning, I just seem to see these things. If it's understeering I'll think to myself "This really should be turning in now" Here your driving style is wrong if you have to brake mid-corner.

As you exit the corner smoothly and the back end does get twitchy, that's oversteer, if you're back end is flying out then it's your driving style.

So huge moments in the corner means driving style. Small moments in a corner means under / oversteer.

Hope that helps

 

[Hig-GT]

As for driving line, outside of the track before the corner, clip the apex, then back to the outside.

A good set up means you'll hit the apex easily

 

[racer39658]

when someone describe a car as having too much understeer, it means the car could be a lot faster if the driver doesn't have to compensate for it. It means if the understeer is less severe, a more ideal line could be ran and the car's overall potential could be better exploited.

While what is ideal is track dependent, a section of a track might demand a certain handling behavior, if the car doesn't naturally perform that way, you are having handling problems, while drivers can still adjust their line, they are inevitably using a less than ideal line, when a change in the car's balance can easily remedy it.

I hope you understands it.

I'm not sure I understand you on this. All cornering requires driver input / compensation. If you choose a bad line, the you will need to make late corrections to avoid a crash. For example, if you go full throttle too early, the car will drift wide. This is true for any car. Thus you need to compensate for a bad race line by decellerating when you should be on the gas.

 

[racer39658]

As for driving line, outside of the track before the corner, clip the apex, then back to the outside.

A good set up means you'll hit the apex easily

Yeah, out-in-out is the most basic of lines. But it's not the only one, and not the only fast line either.

For a long horseshoe corner with a high HP car, the best line may be out-in-out-in-out, hitting an early apex while on the brakes, squaring off the corner, then hitting a late apex on the gas. (for example, the long left turn in Trial Mountain before the uphill section)

For a decreasing radius corner, staying outside late, squaring off the corner, then hitting the late apex is the best general line.

For an increasing radius corner, braking early, hitting an early apex, then powering out wide through the rest of the corner is fastest.

For S turns, you want to take the late apex for the early section to set up for the wide entrance on the next.

So, if understeer and oversteer is defined by the cars ability to take a standard out-in-out race line, then on a lot of cars, you would need to lessen it's performance capability to make that line on every turn.

 

[D_M]

It seems like what you're saying is that, in this game, there is no real understeer or oversteer, it's pretty much a function of wrong line for a particular car?

Yes there is, but you don't have to live with it. You have enough levers to put the car where you want it. You can play with the LSD, Toe-setting, Springs, Ride Height, brake bias, etc. What I'm trying to tell you, is it's more than just taking a bad line. The proper line won't transfer the weight to the front wheels, deal with body roll, car being to stiff, to much wheel spin, not enough corner grip, etc.....

 

[racer39658]

I can only assume I have a feel for the car. You have a specific way of driving, so you should expect that if you go to turn in the car should do a certain thing. I think the best way to judge under and oversteer when you are starting off is to use the gear representation in the bottom right, that will help you be around the right speed for the corner. Once you have got good at that you can try and set the car up to go through the corner a gear higher than represented like I do.

If you turn in smoothly (small adjustments in the corner are fine) and if turn out smoothly and you are gentle on the throttle (depending on car) then your driving is probably 90% fine.

For me when tuning, I just seem to see these things. If it's understeering I'll think to myself "This really should be turning in now" Here your driving style is wrong if you have to brake mid-corner.

As you exit the corner smoothly and the back end does get twitchy, that's oversteer, if you're back end is flying out then it's your driving style.

So huge moments in the corner means driving style. Small moments in a corner means under / oversteer.

Hope that helps

Sorry, responding in the wrong order... that does help a bit. I think my confusion coming from people decribing a car as having way too much understeer, then I try it, adjust my line, and see no problems. I guess it really is a fine line between blaming the car and blaming the driver, but that just makes it so much harder (for me) to judge a car in those terms, as I seem to look harder at my line as a first resort.

 

[B Quiet N Drive]

Well technically, anytime that a car over steers or under steers, it's operator error. If you drive any car slow enough it will handle perfectly.

Now how do you know which problem the car actually has?

I'm afraid that your over thinking it dude. Just run a proper racing line and if your fighting the car to enter the corner and fighting it to get it through the center then it's under steering. If you're afraid to turn the wheel too much because the back end will come around, it's over steering. Either way, it's driver error once you go off the recommended racing line. Whether your car over or under steers it's the drivers job to keep it in check.

 

[Hig-GT]

As above, the car should follow your driving line so to speak ... If the front or rear is having trouble following your line then tune accordingly.

Just to refer to a point made before, I wasn't suggesting the OP use that line indefinitely, just as a basic starting point for where to aim the car

 

[dude2106]

I look at it this way: When i mess up by entering too quickly, turning the wheel too much or going on the throttle too early. What does it do then? It is a driver error, but it tells you the limitations of the car. If you end up backwards in any of the situations it is oversteering if you end up head first into the barrier it is understeering. It tells you the limitations of the car. If the car is oversteering you cannot go faster then what the rear wheels lets you, so that is therefore the bottleneck. You can of cause get around those things by changing your driving, but a tail happy car is a tail happy car however you look at it. A Lancia Stratos Rally Car for instance cannot understeer. I haven't been able to make it understeer, i have always ended up backwards. So it is a tail happy car. You can make it look neutral by going smooth and slow, but when you push it, it will always oversteer.

 

[sinbad]

Some cars are less well balanced than others. It is not a question of corner speeds or outright grip but simply of how easy it is to control or adjust the yaw angle of the car.

If a driver understeers excessively it would have to be seen as a mistake, but that doesn't mean the car isn't excessively prone to understeering.