Is Motor racing truly a competitive sport?

[hampus_dh]

Dude. It's all about the money. How much do you think it took Red Bull, with probably some of the deepest pockets in the F1 field, to Land Newey. The current Guru of F1. You don't think all those engineers work for salaries paid by the highest bidder? The contracts for engineers are probably more valuable in racing than the drivers. Your missing it or refusing to except that money taints all forms of sports, but in F1, It rules it. Even the commentators for F1 make no bones about it.

Adrian is rumored to get $10 million a year (2006-now)

Guys like Newey comes along once in a lifetime. The rest of the engineers don´t have the same status as him. Other teams aren´t hunting them down trying to get them to come over to the other side etc.

They all go from one team to another and if you want to be like Newey then you have to prove yourself.
$10 million in 2006 was nothing for the bigger brands like BMW, Toyota, Ferrari, Mclaren etc.
They spent billions back then compared to a mere $40 million to spend per season today.
Money isn´t a sure footed way to success, it might help you along the way but there is no garantuee that just because you have the biggest budget, you will have the quickest car. Or that you spend the most money thus having a superior car.

Toyota outspent everyone back in the days. Even Ferrari and they failed to win a single race.

Oh. And I don't think Mclaren does do team orders, if they do at all, it is not to the same extent that other teams do. More resources and attention might be focused on a particular driver once he forges a lead over his team mate at some point in the season and takes control of the team's chances. I heard Mclaren is straight up directly from the commentators and it seems in line with what you see on the track. Williams was the same back when Ralf and Juan were dueling too.

They do. Just like every other team. They have done it multiple times during the years but they choose to do it somewhat more discrete.

Every team do it when there is a reason for it.

 

[iridegravity]

Money is no guarentee of success. That is true. That's what I was trying to point out
when I mentioned the Toyota team the first time. But lack of money in F1 does mean failure and no chance. The last 4-5 teams on the grid are always going to be fielded by some rich shieks or wealthy men that can afford a business write off in exchange for access to the F1 paddock. That's why there is such great turnover back there. Dudes get bored with the scene and move on or they're foolish enough to think they will find some way into the inner circle. Hopefully Bernie wont burn them too bad.

 

[hampus_dh]

Money is no guarentee of success. That is true. That's what I was trying to point out
when I mentioned the Toyota team the first time. But lack of money in F1 does mean failure and no chance. The last 4-5 teams on the grid are always going to be fielded by some rich shieks or wealthy men that can afford a business write off in exchange for access to the F1 paddock. That's why there is such great turnover back there. Dudes get bored with the scene and move on or they're foolish enough to think they will find some way into the inner circle. Hopefully Bernie wont burn them too bad.

As it does in any of the high level sports.
Try win the Champions League with your local football team for example.

In F1 it´s money being spent on the team and developing of the car.

In other sports like NHL and Football it´s all about the players.
Some football players get sold for twice the amount of what F1 teams are allowed to spend over a full year for example.

 

[iridegravity]

As it does in any of the high level sports.
Try win the Champions League with your local football team for example.

In F1 it´s money being spent on the team and developing of the car.

In other sports like NHL and Football it´s all about the players.
Some football players get sold for twice the amount of what F1 teams are allowed to spend over a full year for example.

Hampus. You might want to read my edit of OP. Or maybe all my posts before debate. Trying to stay focused on the differences in levels of competitiveness. I was never trying to imply complete lack of competition.

 

[gogatrs]

Just realized that ALL the examples that were used were Formula 1. There are OTHER forms of motorsport as well.
Take Petit Le Mans last year for example.
After 10 hours, the race was decided in GT in the last turn due to Ferrari running out of fuel.
1969 Le Mans, after 24 hours the top two cars were separated by under 5 seconds iirc.
Petit Le Mans THIS year.
Laguna Seca this year.
The list goes on and on.
And those are just races that I've watched.

 

[niky]

Watch out, you'll bring down the furry of the super moderator gods.

Dale Earnhardt Junior & Mark Webber's shrines are not to be moved or touched after they've been cleaned & waxed in the morning.

At no time did anyone say so. But if you make incredible claims, you need to back them up with incredible evidence.

 

[iridegravity]

Just realized that ALL the examples that were used were Formula 1. There are OTHER forms of motorsport as well.
Take Petit Le Mans last year for example.
After 10 hours, the race was decided in GT in the last turn due to Ferrari running out of fuel.
1969 Le Mans, after 24 hours the top two cars were separated by under 5 seconds iirc.
Petit Le Mans THIS year.
Laguna Seca this year.
The list goes on and on.
And those are just races that I've watched.

I don't watch racing as much as I used to, but F1 is the best example obviously because the most money is spent there and it's the only series I know more than a little about.
After looking over the standings of the top series on Speeds web site, you can definitely see the connection between amount of money/development in each form and it's effect on the sport. The Bigger series or higher classes are consistently seperated by higher point margins between winners and losers. The prototype classes, where more corporate dollars are invested weren't nearly as competitive as GT. You can see the influence very easily if your looking for it. Nascar is the same way. More like a quarter of the field has a shot at a title. There is also a much greater chance of a wild card team or driver stealing a race win on any given race day making it, in my opinion, one of the more competitive series out there. Even if they do only turn left almost all the time. But make no mistake, Hendrick, Childress and (I don't remember all the players in Nascar) insert other power house here... are consistently dominating the field there as well. Montoya, who definitely has to be one of the most talented drivers in it can't get in to the chase. I would be interested to see him drive for a top team. It would be cool to see exactly where he stands as a nascar Racer. Is his problem the car or the fact that he has no friends on the grid it would seem.
Anyway. Best way to leave it I guess is...
Money taints all sports making them less competitive at times, especially Motor Racing?

Must say that Motor racing kind of reminds me of baseball. It's those special moments that happen every once in a while that keep you coming back, even if you have to endure some pretty boring competition at times.

 

[niky]

It's just like any other sport. Equipment can and does make a difference in your performance. There's no coincidence in the ability of countries like the USA and China to consistently top the medal tallies in the Olympics. They have the biggest and best equipped training facilities and programs.

Of course, you don't see that on the field of play, simply because any equipment (or drug) that directly enhances performance is usually banned. Assymetric golf ball dimples, aluminum baseball bats, double-strung tennis rackets... all banned in order to keep fields close.

Only a small number of sports see equipment developments that outright change the game. Swimming competitions, for example, allow the special new full-body drag-reducing swimsuits, which can shave a second or so from 100 meter times (that's the difference between an olympic second or third place and a world record). There's also competitive cycling (like the Tour de France), where manufacturer and parts supplier sponsorship is important, where the bikes are pushing the bleeding edge of technology to eke out that extra tenth of a second per minute. That's balanced out, of course, by the races taking a whole lot longer than one minute...

In a motor racing series like F1, the difference between the best and those who are simply in the top 1% is something like half-a-second to a second a lap. The difference between the right set-up and a slightly wrong one (which is where team-work comes into play) is maybe a tenth of a second or two. But the difference between the best and worst car is something like 2-3 seconds.

The difference, however, between the best team (right now, Red Bull) and the second-best (say, McLaren) is about a half-second per lap, so an exceptional driver, one whose skill is worth a half-second to a second per lap over anyone else, using the right set-up, can still score more points than a merely great driver in the best car on a less optimal one.

It's all down to the organizers to balance the rules so that the team and technology matter less than the man... WITHOUT driving away manufacturers and corporations who invest in F1 to show off their technical prowess. It's a razor thin line to tread.

Is racing a competitive sport? Of course it is. But it's a team sport, so it's not just the drivers who make the car fast, even in a level playing field like Formula Ford or Formula Renault. Race engineers and pit crews can win or lose it for the team. And like any other professional team sports, like football or basketball, the dominant teams are usually those with the best management teams and the deepest pockets.

 

[Schwartz]

Most people think that the competitive part of racing is the driving and the race its self. That is really only half the battle. The real competition is team vs team. Drivers get the most "face time" because that is really the only fun thing to watch. No offense to the drivers, but the real work that makes a team one of the best in the sport is the boring stuff like engineering, designing, tuning, strategising, etc. So yes its a very competitive team sport, sort of like baseball because there is no salary cap. (cough cough yankees cough cough red sox cough cough)