Its time to fix N class bops.

  • Thread starter Pururut
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237
Greece
Greece
Todays nations cup race again showed us how unbalanced mess is the N class right now. The grid was full of Ferrari F50s, Sfr racing concept and few Xbows. I dont blame anyone for using them since they are meta car and if you dont choose some of them you will race to lose. I really want to see grids like gr.3 races where its usually have very varied grid.

The problem with the current N class bops is some cars are literally better then others in every aspect. This is happening mostly due to incorrect bop values and some of happening because of bad stock gear setups. For example Ferrari F50 is set to around 1250 kg and 295 bhp with bop which makes no sense when a Dodge Super Bee set to heavier then 1300 kg with no compansetation at all to horsepower. Really? Where is logic here? Are you telling me Dodge Super Bee is better at track then F50 so they set heavier weight? This bop adjustments just make good car even better while bad car even worse.

If balancing is not possible around every N class cars then there has to be some sub classes to narrow the car choices. Muscle cars, Jdms, Luxury, Trucks etc. then balance each car according to their sub classes.

Game is out there for 2 years. A prober N class is needed. Right now.
 
1,214
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
breeminator
breeminator
I think it could definitely be done better than it is, even though I agree the N concept is a bit flawed to start with. They just don't seem to put the same effort into it as they have with the Gr categories. I tried the '97 Supra and the Amemiya RX-7 for Nations Free Practice, for example, and they just couldn't get anywhere near the F50's time. The cars don't all have to perform equally on every track, but it shouldn't be the case that some cars are never worth using on any track.
 

Veinz

Premium
3,007
Canada
Kirkland Lake, Ontario.
veinzerrr
The cars need to be sorted properly before even thinking about bop. You will never find a good balance with N categories as is. They also need to stop allowing detunes, that just complicates things even further.
 
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1,211
Switzerland
VS & 74 (France)
GT-Alex74
Yup, N class format is doomed from the beginning. Detuning should also be forbidden in FIAs (and lobby settings should allow to forbid it as well). In an ideal world the game would increase or decrease tyre widths as you tune / detune your car into another class but that's not happening in GTS for a lot of reasons.

A revamped PP system would be good. Main issues with GT5-6 PP system were :
- the whole torque curve was taken into account, so basically power in areas you'd never use would increase the points count. This made high revving, peaky power curve engined cars much better at equal PPs.
- there was a soft spot in terms of weight that would offer good performance for a reasonable cost in PPs : from 800kg to 1200kg was definitely the place to be. Under 800kg would give more PPs than performance which generally left you with a significantly underpowered car. A bit above 1200kg was definitely not as optimized but still decent for some cars, but anything 1500kg+ was generally trash, bare a few exceptions.
- chassis quality was definitely overlooked. Cars with skinny tyres, open diffs and such were having a hard time. Drivetrain layout had little to no influence on the PPs, I think the game only looked at weight distribution but it had a minimal effect on points. MR cars in general had a clear edge over the competition, but most of the OP MRs also matched the peaky engine and weight soft spot criterias. Overall I think the game should AI test lateral and longitudinal Gs on a given class of tyres, as well as traction and braking abilities, and calculate a chassis score based on that.

One good thing the PP system had was about detuning : the power limiter didn't just scale down the whole power curve like GTS does, it actually acted like a limiter. This means reducing power would cut the peak and turn it into a plateau, which was the worst from a PP optimization standpoint. It was not enough to kill some of the OP cars in lower PP ranges though.

Somethign else that could be made, in conjunction with a PP system or not, is cherry-picked classes with minimal to no BoP. Thematic classes like hot hatches and such would have some potential.
 
474
United Kingdom
Jamaican living in UK
Hygrade-B
F50 was good but I managed to pass a few in a porch & my fuel level & tyre wear was on spot. If I was not rammed I would of won or came 2. I went down from 7th to 15th then back to 5th and could see the top 4 Infront of me .
If you use the right strategy you can sometimes over come.
I just feel it's boring everyone picking the same car because the top 10 did.
But that's just me
 
248
India
India
To me, some of the BoPs for N class cars almost feel like they've been typed randomly. Lots of cars have much worse BoP then they should have, making them uncompetitive.

The biggest issue though is the N class system itself. It's only based on power and nothing else. In N300, you have KTM Xbow which can take on supercars, against Jaguar e-type. N700 Dodge Hellcat against Pagani Huayra. N100 Alpine A110 against Sambabus. That is something that even very well made BoPs aren't able to balance.
 
1,214
United Kingdom
United Kingdom
breeminator
breeminator
F50 was good but I managed to pass a few in a porch & my fuel level & tyre wear was on spot. If I was not rammed I would of won or came 2. I went down from 7th to 15th then back to 5th and could see the top 4 Infront of me .
If you use the right strategy you can sometimes over come.
I just feel it's boring everyone picking the same car because the top 10 did.
But that's just me
The Porsche is another strong N300 car, though. You've basically got the X-Bow, SF-R Concept, M4, F50, 911. At Interlagos, those cars can all do quite similar lap times to each other. The majority of N300 cars can never match those cars on any track.
 
550
Portugal
Braga, Portugal
pedrocor
No fix possible to Nxxx class based purely on power output, period.

Like some @Nuschel01 and @GT_Alex74 already said, the GT5/6 Performance Point system, would be a lot more appropriate.
It was flawed too, but in a very reduce way, compared to the current system. But we would still have some meta cars (Suzuki GSX-R/4, Mazda RX500, Amuse S2000 R1...). This kind of cars should be Gr. X cars, but the RX500 is a N300 car and we also have the Amuse S2000 GT1 in N600 class. Despite the Mazda was built as a single prototype just to test engines and road safety solutions, never intended to have a production based derived model.
 
237
Greece
Greece
Few examples of the broken bop system:

Porsche 911 Turbo 930: 295 bhp/1378 kg
Porsche 911 Carrera RS CS: 295 bhp/1321 kg
Porsche 911 GT3 996: 293 bhp/1282 kg

Really? 930 already has the worst cornering speeds above the 3 cars yet set to heaviest. Because of that GT3 performs extremely strong while 930 is lack luster. Not to mention GT3 has already way better gearings then 930.


Pontiac Firebird Trans Am: 294 bhp/1541 kg
Mazda Atenza Sedan XD: 296 bhp/1632 kg
Toyota Supra RZ: 295 bhp/1494 kg

Those particular cars(and someothers) are set to ridicilous weights that makes them not just uncompetitive also garbage.


Old American muscles have unuseable gearings in any circuit apart from tsukuba and short versions of Willow springs. Custom Gearbox is a must for them.


Fwd cars have more horsepower then rwd and awd cars in gr.4 for due understeer issue but this is not represented in N class. Because of that all Fwd cars are bad and also have worse tyre usage.

Lamborghini Countach LP400 have practically same straight line speed with Lamborghini Miura P400 but countach has worse cornering speeds and worse stability.

You guys can add more examples here.
 

zzz_pt

Premium
8,125
Germany
Porto living in Hamburg
zzz_pt
Grouping cars by horsepower is something a 10 year old kid would do, PD can either reintroduce PP or try to group them by lap times.

Group by lap times would probably be the best option.

PD "just" needs a self learning algorithm that can race each car on each track for long enough to be competent and then use the data to group the cars within a smaller margin. A few adjustments in weight and/or power, as we have in Gr. categories, would finish the job.

But of course I have no idea how feasible, expensive or time consuming that would be. I know one thing: it would make every race better and every player happier.
 
248
India
India
Few examples of the broken bop system:
Porsche 911 Turbo 930: 295 bhp/1378 kg
Porsche 911 Carrera RS CS: 295 bhp/1321 kg
Porsche 911 GT3 996: 293 bhp/1282 kg

Really? 930 already has the worst cornering speeds above the 3 cars yet set to heaviest. Because of that GT3 performs extremely strong while 930 is lack luster. Not to mention GT3 has already way better gearings then 930.


Pontiac Firebird Trans Am: 294 bhp/1541 kg
Mazda Atenza Sedan XD: 296 bhp/1632 kg
Toyota Supra RZ: 295 bhp/1494 kg

Those particular cars(and someothers) are set to ridicilous weights that makes them not just uncompetitive also garbage.


Old American muscles have unuseable gearings in any circuit apart from tsukuba and short versions of Willow springs. Custom Gearbox is a must for them.


Fwd cars have more horsepower then rwd and awd cars in gr.4 for due understeer issue but this is not represented in N class. Because of that all Fwd cars are bad and also have worse tyre usage.

Lamborghini Countach LP400 have practically same straight line speed with Lamborghini Miura P400 but countach has worse cornering speeds and worse stability.

You guys can add more examples here.
These cars shouldn't race in a same category in first place. 911 designed in 70s, against 911s from 90s and 00s just won't work. Even if they put a slightly better BoP, it will still be unbalanced.

It's crazy that in N300 you basically have 80s,90s,00s JDM cars, some modern European sporty cars, old muscle cars, classic European sports cars, car that is basically a race car for the road ( KTM xbow ), Gr Supra with the latest technologies and of course detuned cars with the likes of F50, 996, M4, S-FR etc. There's no BoP fix for that.

...But

N100 is even crazier. Here you have Alpine A110 against Fiat 500 and Sambabus. :D
 

TonyJZX

(Banned)
3,945
Australia
Australia
I think we are too far down the rabbit hole to ever change. The only change will be moving to a new generation of game... which isnt likely to happen if they decide to keep this game for the next gen and then they keep this engine for the next game after GT Sport II on ps5...

They kept PP for GT5/6 because its same engine same game same gen etc.

But I fear we will not see any change in this or any of the core mechanics until the change over to PS6... I'm that pessimistic.
 

LeGeNd-1

Premium
6,872
Australia
Australia
GTP_LeGeNd-1
There is no easy fix for categorisation. Car performance is too complicated to be sorted by a single number, neither BOP or PP will ever do the job properly. PD should just scrap N and Gr.X class and just treat every car individually like in previous games. With events outside Gr.1/2/3/4/B, they either need to make it one-make or have a specific BOP tailored for that one event track, and narrow down the car selections to similar cars.

It's seriously not difficult and I know they can do it because we've had the N300 90s JDM events a couple times in Daily Races (although even that is a meta between RX7 or R34, but it's much closer than just open N300). Just think of all the possibilities of cool FIA races if we are forced to use cars we never would've driven otherwise (classic muscle, modern hypercars, hot hatch, JDM tuners, Gr road cars, etc). Yes it's more work for whoever is testing the BOP, but 1-2 such races each season would be much appreciated.
 
790
Italy
Italy
PD can adjust these classes and as @LeGeNd-1 pointed out, the n300 JDM races are good proof.

Also because the JDMs are plenty now so you can integrate into its own now.
Even hatches can be their own.

Hopefully it'll work out
 

gthelmi2398

Premium
225
Germany
Germany
helmi2398
Every car is part of a N-Group, while be buy them. I buy a car, for example a BMW M3 Evolution (N200) and then I tune him and he is N400...
The BOP system is not the best, right, but if I have a N400 race on some track, I think we should just have the option to choose a car originally in this group. So nobody would race with a F50 or a X-Bow in a N-Race out of his group.

In Nations Cup I wish to get a random car before the race from a N-Group like you see it on some World Tour events before. So it is more dificult on one hand, and on the other hand I won't be a boring One Make Race.
 
4,270
Indonesia
Paint booth
FMecha_EXE
N/A
Every car is part of a N-Group, while be buy them. I buy a car, for example a BMW M3 Evolution (N200) and then I tune him and he is N400...
The BOP system is not the best, right, but if I have a N400 race on some track, I think we should just have the option to choose a car originally in this group. So nobody would race with a F50 or a X-Bow in a N-Race out of his group.

In Nations Cup I wish to get a random car before the race from a N-Group like you see it on some World Tour events before. So it is more dificult on one hand, and on the other hand I won't be a boring One Make Race.
So... shuffle racing?
 

ScottPye20

Powered by Dewalt
Premium
10,947
Australia
Melbourne
ScottPye20
No point fixing the bops if the system is horrendously flawed to begin with... It will never work.
 
642
United States
Kissimmee, Florida
wedjim
The biggest issue with using Horse Power as a gauge is that Torque is what moves the car, while HP is only a calculation of torque and rpm. This is what shows up on a straight away, gearing combined with peak torque and total weight.

I agree that the only way to do it correctly is lap times. This way cars that don’t corner quite as well will be a little faster on the straights to make it even and make more cars competitive.

The fact that only a couple of cars are using added downforce in the lower categories tells me PD doesn’t want them even.
 
248
India
India
Gr.3 class was horrendously flawed at beggining. Remember Beetle Gr.3? There was no point to use anything other then Beetle.
Gr3 is much better to work with, because all cars are very similar to each other because of GT3 and GTE regulations. I don't think beetle was that fast anyway, Porsche 911 was faster at various tracks as well as some other cars.

In N300, you have Porsche 930 from
1981, Jaguar E-Type from 1961, almost a race car level car KTM Xbow, a luxury sedan Toyota crown, various JDM sports cars from 80s,90s and early 00s and then detuned cars with the likes of F50, 996, M4 etc. And this is just N300. N200 and N100 are even worse.

There could be a better BoP done for sure, but it still wouldn't be balanced. You can't race different types of cars from different eras and expect them to have a close race, unless there'll be a new class system.
 
237
Greece
Greece
Gr3 is much better to work with, because all cars are very similar to each other because of GT3 and GTE regulations. I don't think beetle was that fast anyway, Porsche 911 was faster at various tracks as well as some other cars.

In N300, you have Porsche 930 from
1981, Jaguar E-Type from 1961, almost a race car level car KTM Xbow, a luxury sedan Toyota crown, various JDM sports cars from 80s,90s and early 00s and then detuned cars with the likes of F50, 996, M4 etc. And this is just N300. N200 and N100 are even worse.

There could be a better BoP done for sure, but it still wouldn't be balanced. You can't race different types of cars from different eras and expect them to have a close race, unless there'll be a new class system.
You are correct tho. N class have very variated cars thus makes the balancing harder however its possible to get at least more balanced. Lacking cars should get some Bhp buff or lower weight.
 
2,855
United States
Connecticut
Ridley-X4
My idea is that if there were more parts options, the N-Class wouldn't be as unbalanced. For example, stuff like aero kits. I think the issue is that the entire N-Series uses modified cars, between power/weight changes and being able to adjust ABS/BB/TCS/FM in cars that don't come stock with that ability, but doesn't have enough ways that one car can compensate for other factors.

My idea would be is that there could be races that use a selection of cars that are entirely stock, without any changes to power or weight - including from BoP. Meanwhile, the N-Series would be for cars that have had even one upgrade installed. But this idea seems like it'd be too hard to balance. So maybe instead, I think the best compromise that considers both the devs and the players would be to make each N-Class only consist of cars within that HP range, that is, if one wants BoP to be applied. For example, a LaFerrari that's detuned insofar that it could enter an N600 race would not actually be able to enter if BoP is enabled. The same would apply for a Toyota Supra Mk.IV that's over 700HP, in regards to an N700 race.

At any rate, I'm pretty sure PD is aware of the N-Class and its balancing issues. I'm not sure if it'll be solved via an update to GTS (perhaps once it's done with content updates), or in the next title. But I do like the current grouping system, at least in concept. I just think there's more potential to have more interesting limits on eligible cars (rather than either having a one-make or allowing an entire class to enter), and just have more interesting rulesets/regulations in general. Ideally, there'll be a way to play around with stock vehicles, as well as ones with more interesting modifications installed by players - whichever the player prefers.

I mean, if the PP system does return, I think it'd be best for the N-Series at most, rather than the other groups. I'm hoping new classes could come, too, such as a class for historic prototypes like the 330 P4.
 
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1,470
United Kingdom
Up North
bl23ub
I was considering the Honda S2000 for the current FIA Nations N200 race, thinking it would maybe be interesting to race against the Mazda TC,
The de-tuned Porsche RS smashes both of them.
The recently added N300 M3 can be de-tuned to beat them.
The N400 Toyota Ugly can be de-tuned all the way down N200 and beat them,
The N200 4C with BoP applied gains 200kg.
The Balance of Performance is clearly being set by baby chimpanzee's.