Just Me, Or Did They Remove the Improved AI Patch?

[ItsHim]

I can recall a time where F1 races were won in the pits.

If you look into the endurance race A spec section you'll find that after doing some research, there are plenty of true races to be held with uncertain outcome.

It's a quirky game design, true, but watching Sunday telly only tells half if the story.

But I'm taking nothing away from the fact Codemasters always did a brilliant job of making racing exciting (though a bit more exciting and OTT than real life).

 

[Hayden]

Whatever you do, there is not a single even in this game the remotely resembles a real life race.

But then again, this is NOT a racing game, its a DRIVING game. Even says so on the box :/

I must point you to the FGT series, the AI are quite challenging in that set of races.
I tend to be split on this however. 90% of GT5's events are too short and to easy, but that doesn't mean it's not a race.

Think about it. If a Civic drag raced a Viper in the real world it is still a race, it may not be fun or challenging or competitive or interesting but it is still a race. Same goes for GT5, and like the drag racing example it is dealt with by a handicap system at the start to give the Civic (AI) a fighting chance. While this is a good band-aid solution to make the end closer, it's still obvious which party raced better.

P.S. Please no links/videos/stories about tuned Civic's fairly drag racing stock Vipers.

 

[NA]

That still doesn't make it racing though. Let's say we go out to Spa, put 6 drivers in front of you, limit their acceleration and braking as well as ability to change much of anything at all, then put you in the back and say, "Ok this is the point of this, to get into first place within 5 laps." Those other drivers are not racing you, despite the track, despite the cars, despite someone using the term "race", it still is not racing.


I agree with the rest of your post.

If I'm trying to get over the line before they do, that would be the definition of racing. Just because somebody at PD got the strange idea to severely and overly retard the competition, to make the last guy have a much easier time of it, doesn't make it not racing, it just means PD has a missguided idea of fair competition that tends to negate the racing aspect for most average to serious players. In fact some touring car series (WTCC, STCC come to mind) DO retard the winners, as well as placing round winners further back in the second race start lineup, to give the rest a better chance, they just don't over do it to GT's level.

 

[mr_serious]

That still doesn't make it racing though. Let's say we go out to Spa, put 6 drivers in front of you, limit their acceleration and braking as well as ability to change much of anything at all, then put you in the back and say, "Ok this is the point of this, to get into first place within 5 laps." Those other drivers are not racing you, despite the track, despite the cars, despite someone using the term "race", it still is not racing.


I agree with the rest of your post.

It's odd because I thought I was agreeing completely with your point (which is why I wrote "they certainly intended it to be a racing game (it even says so on the back of the box). However they failed miserably in single player. ". Immediately after the bit you bolded!

I don't consider GT5 to have any racing (other than online).

I was trying to answer the same old "it says it's a driving game on the box" rubbish that always get's posted in any thread that criticises GT5 in any way

 

[Bye Ya]

It's odd because I thought I was agreeing completely with your point (which is why I wrote "they certainly intended it to be a racing game (it even says so on the back of the box). However they failed miserably in single player. ". Immediately after the bit you bolded!

I don't consider GT5 to have any racing (other than online).

I was trying to answer the same old "it says it's a driving game on the box" rubbish that always get's posted in any thread that criticises GT5 in any way

Sorry then.

 

[sdf]

I must point you to the FGT series, the AI are quite challenging in that set of races.
I tend to be split on this however. 90% of GT5's events are too short and to easy, but that doesn't mean it's not a race.

Think about it. If a Civic drag raced a Viper in the real world it is still a race, it may not be fun or challenging or competitive or interesting but it is still a race. Same goes for GT5, and like the drag racing example it is dealt with by a handicap system at the start to give the Civic (AI) a fighting chance. While this is a good band-aid solution to make the end closer, it's still obvious which party raced better.

I totally agree 👍... and the Conclusion is this > A race is not defined by how hard or easy is to win.
Top Gear have setup races like car vs train, car vs boat, car vs plain etc etc....2 totally different vehicles, 2 totally different routs.....but cause the finish point is the same and the target is to finish 1st or before your opponent/s, it makes it a race.
btw..... a race vs "Time" is also a race.

GT5 is a racing game without competition, but nevertheless is a racing game.

 

[CarloPlaya]

GT5 is a racing game. The AI is plain stupid on many occasions, but they make up for some good times sometimes if you use an underpowered car.

Plus, I like the way that I have to tune up cars sometimes to finish 1st or even on the Podium, e.g. I take a stock TVR V8S to the (British-Lightweight-SE-)London-race and finish 5th on the first try. Following a 5th place, I'll tune the car up bit by bit so i can win the race. That's the way I love to play GT5, among many, many others.

That still doesn't make it racing though. Let's say we go out to Spa, put 6 drivers in front of you, limit their acceleration and braking as well as ability to change much of anything at all, then put you in the back and say, "Ok this is the point of this, to get into first place within 5 laps." Those other drivers are not racing you, despite the track, despite the cars, despite someone using the term "race", it still is not racing.

That is racing, altough it wouldn't be the most competitive.

race/rās/
Noun: A competition between runners, horses, vehicles, boats, etc., to see which is the fastest in covering a set course.
Verb: Compete with another or others to see who is fastest at covering a set course or achieving an objective

 

[Tenacious D]

Whatever you do, there is not a single even in this game the remotely resembles a real life race.

I know this dead horse constantly gets beat, but it's also not a very balanced argument. Even PC sims only have aspects of real life racing. Maybe you can't stand it if there aren't track marshals with flags to scold you, or safety cars. Sorry, never mattered much to me.

Bye Ya evidently loves him some F1. To me, it's a headache I can't wait to get away from after a while. Some guys just aren't having fun unless they're making decisions every tenth of a second at 200mph. Ugh... you guys can eat that dinner all you want, but it's not for me.

Somehow, the thousands of us who visit here every day manage to enjoy this weird game, because other than the weirdness, it's a darn fun experience. For us.

Now far be it from me to say you shouldn't ask for this realism stuff. Lord knows I've been asking for it too. But after four GTs and a Prologue with nothing to show of what you sim fiends have been begging for, don't expect a lot of sympathy from us long time players when you gape at GT5 and cry, "Wha... there's no SAAAFETY CARRR!! This game is SEWER PUDDING!!!"

Look, I'm a car addict. The only other game which offers something similar to Gran Turismo is Forza. Which is essentially Microsoft's copy of Gran Turismo, but with just as many flaws as GT5. Every. Single. Game. Maybe FW4 will be the real deal, but I heard this song and dance three times already. I don't find the physics quite as good, or the driver views, or the narrower selection of cars, or MS's crappy wheels - and I'm not about to plunk down $250 more bucks for a Fanatec wheel with no freaking pedals! I know you Forza fans get mouth foam when I say this, but other than a lovely livery maker, Forza is just GT with less.

This narrows the field to one game. Because... I know we all have our faves, but name any racer you can think of, and it just lacks that essence that makes Gran Turismo what it is. This is something special. It's even in the menu music. It's style, it's class. And even though many of you are sick of hearing this, it has a thousand freaking cars. Go ahead and whittle down every other racer to its essential car list and tell me how many yours has, which most of you guys won't do. I happen to love the Cappucchino. I don't care if the exhaust sound is off. If that makes you ill, oh well.

Ask away for improvements. I do too. But GT5 isn't going to magically transmogrify with a 15GB patch into what you want. Ain't happening. If race marshalls make your day, I think it's about time you guys put two and two together and stick to those games which have them, and quit dropping napalm all over the place as if one more luuv bomb is going to make it all different in the next patch.

 

[Bye Ya]

I know this dead horse constantly gets beat, but it's also not a very balanced argument. Even PC sims only have aspects of real life racing. Maybe you can't stand it if there aren't track marshals with flags to scold you, or safety cars. Sorry, never mattered much to me.

Bye Ya evidently loves him some F1. To me, it's a headache I can't wait to get away from after a while. Some guys just aren't having fun unless they're making decisions every tenth of a second at 200mph. Ugh... you guys can eat that dinner all you want, but it's not for me.

Somehow, the thousands of us who visit here every day manage to enjoy this weird game, because other than the weirdness, it's a darn fun experience. For us.

Now far be it from me to say you shouldn't ask for this realism stuff. Lord knows I've been asking for it too. But after four GTs and a Prologue with nothing to show of what you sim fiends have been begging for, don't expect a lot of sympathy from us long time players when you gape at GT5 and cry, "Wha... there's no SAAAFETY CARRR!! This game is SEWER PUDDING!!!"

Look, I'm a car addict. The only other game which offers something similar to Gran Turismo is Forza. Which is essentially Microsoft's copy of Gran Turismo, but with just as many flaws as GT5. Every. Single. Game. Maybe FW4 will be the real deal, but I heard this song and dance three times already. I don't find the physics quite as good, or the driver views, or the narrower selection of cars, or MS's crappy wheels - and I'm not about to plunk down $250 more bucks for a Fanatec wheel with no freaking pedals! I know you Forza fans get mouth foam when I say this, but other than a lovely livery maker, Forza is just GT with less.

This narrows the field to one game. Because... I know we all have our faves, but name any racer you can think of, and it just lacks that essence that makes Gran Turismo what it is. This is something special. It's even in the menu music. It's style, it's class. And even though many of you are sick of hearing this, it has a thousand freaking cars. Go ahead and whittle down every other racer to its essential car list and tell me how many yours has, which most of you guys won't do. I happen to love the Cappucchino. I don't care if the exhaust sound is off. If that makes you ill, oh well.

Ask away for improvements. I do too. But GT5 isn't going to magically transmogrify with a 15GB patch into what you want. Ain't happening. If race marshalls make your day, I think it's about time you guys put two and two together and stick to those games which have them, and quit dropping napalm all over the place as if one more luuv bomb is going to make it all different in the next patch.

Very good post, but the fifth paragraph exemplifies what kind of game this actually is. I like it for all of those same reasons, and agree that it is a special game in many ways.

Funny how we find ourselves here in the discussion when all I did was mention that the AI seemed worse since the last time I'd played the game, and that I don't consider GT5 a game that's about racing.

But I also wanted to again say:

I enjoy racing games. I happen to be into F1. 👍



I also happen to love racing GT5 online with people who set up events, such as Super GT racing, or Le Mans, FGT, even NASCAR, etc.

That is racing as well.

It's not all about speed, etc. I love me some Super GT racing, and definitely Le Mans when it's done with likeminded drivers. I've also had some really fun experiences with guys who take the NASCAR racing seriously online, especially those who are willing to get off of the oval tracks. That is racing for sure, and yes it's still GT5 in the end. I'm just saying that the single player stuff is not racing, in my opinion.



Now I can't be bothered to continually dig up my posts for those who are going to retaliate in ignorance to the thread (not meaning this post). I've clearly stated my position enough times that people should not be taking offense to my opinions. Time to move on.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

No one is taking offense, but merely providing perspective.

I've clearly stated my position enough times that people should not be taking offense to my opinions. Time to move on.

This is what the majority have been trying to do.

 

[NA]

I get the impression that everyone that understands the definition of racing has just been called ignorant. That's about the time these threads start the spiral into pointless flame wars. Oh well, untill the ritual starts over again next week............

 

[Sele1981]

It is you... Because there is no AI in this game... There are only sunday drivers, braking early and driving carefully...

As a GT fan since GT1, I´m in love with Forza´s AI... Damn that game is hard if you set the AI to hard! It is so much fun! But the understeer ruins the game... So there is hope on FM4...

 

[MoGoSpeed]

. Oh well, untill the ritual starts over again next week............

why why why ahhhh nooooooo

will it ever end

 

[sumbrownkid]

That is NOT racing though, even still. And I don't buy your argument. Sarah Palin and Obama are both political figures, but only one is really the President. GT5 is a political figure in the racing world, but not the real thing, not a member of the House or Senate, etc.

Again, racing is NOT starting from 12th position and driving through 11 other cars that are following programmed lines like obedient zombies, while you slalom your way up to first. The fact that you might choose to inhibit your car in doing so adds nothing to correct the racing deficiency. It's a driving challenge, not a racing challenge.

The AI cars in GT5 are not trying to win. Racers compete against each other intelligently. And while any AI experience is going to fall short of the real thing, GT5 is not even remotely an effort at replicating the racing experience, which is why it is not a racing game.

Driving game/racing game - two different things, but still both part of the driving simulation genre.





Similar tuned cars does not make the GT5 "12th to 1st" experience any more of a racing event, as I just pointed out. The other two questions don't address what I've been talking about. But no, there are people better and worse than me when I'm racing humans online, if that's what you mean. And the game doesn't have to match my abilities to be a racing game, it has to meet racing criteria to be a racing game. It's not about the difficulty, it's about the structuring of the events and the fact that there is no racing interaction that actually occurs.





"We're?" I'm not against everyone here, nor was that comment addressing the whole forum. I responded to one person, actually. And the events you earn money from do not involve racing/competing against other drivers. If you think the AI is racing against you then I suggest you watch ANY race in reality and see if ANY driver just putters along at a gradual/programmed rate of consistent acceleration/decelleration/driving line whilst ignoring their surroundings/other drivers for the duration of the event. Like I said, AI is never going to be able to replicate a racing experience 100%, and that's not even what I'm saying. What I AM saying is that GT5 wasn't even structured to be that way. It's a driving game by design, not a racing game. (Although you can race people online). The level of programming put into the AI cars is nothing more than minimum. The focus is on graphics, car variety and detail, and DRIVING experience/physics. There is only a minimal effort given toward racing competition/simulation in the design of the game. That is a fact, not my opinion.


I don't know how I can be any more clear about this. Apparently you ARE taking offense, and so I again apologize that simply pointing out that GT5 is not a racing game, nor is it intended to be, is an offensive statement to whoever may hear it and take it that way. I do like the game for what it is, there are a lot of great things about it, but racing is not one of them. And the sad fact is that the AI involved in the "events" portion of this game is at the level of 16-bit programming, which is frustrating and mind numbing for those who also avoid playing against the online punters. Yes, that part I do not like, but I'm also fine with other people that enjoy it. However, the single player events are NOT what I would call racing in the slightest sense, that's all I'm saying. And that's fine, because they aren't intended to be. The world is a happy place because this is understood.

And all I'm saying is We're not offended in general because a lot of other GTP members saw stuff like GT is not racing or this or that a long time ago. And me and others know you're not against anyone here.

But Obama as president is still a valid argument in that he is president and GT5 is a racing game.

 

[Greycap]

I'm just saying that the single player stuff is not racing, in my opinion.

If you think that the races are too short, keep in mind that they're meant to be road car races for the most part. Completely stock cars at that. If you've ever tracked a normal unmodified daily driver (or know someone who has) you should know that five laps of pushing hard is about the maximum a normal car can take before the engine temperature is something it shouldn't be, brake fluids are boiling, the tyres are about to give in from excessive heat, and something in the suspension is surprisingly likely to break under the heavy stress.

If you think the AI drives too slowly and your job is to just slalom through them, try using a car equal to the ones they're driving. In most cases that means a fully stock car, no oil change, and comfort tyres. On top of that drive every race so that you won't crash once - because you really can't do that in real life - and it becomes a hell of a lot more racing because you actually have to push a lot harder, plan your moves far better than before and take the corners cautiously enough to stay on the track. Sure, you can still win but it's just become quite difficult compared to the earlier situation.

While I agree that it's a flaw in the game that you can take a 1000 bhp Viper on racing slicks into races in which the AI drives stock Miatas on road tyres I certainly disagree with those who think it's the only way to go. And for all of you out there in that group, what do you expect the AI to do other than sit there and watch you zoom past? Just imagine what a real driver would do in the same situation.

 

[Bye Ya]

If you think the AI drives too slowly and your job is to just slalom through them, try using a car equal to the ones they're driving.

Doesn't change anything, because the event is still structured to start from last and make it to first. 👎

 

[NA]

One last thing before I'm out of here:
I think to say "To me, GT5 IS NOT a racing game." is a very valid, unarguable statement of opinion. Same goes for "To me GT5 IS a racing game".
I think one of the main reasons this keeps coming up over, and over, and over, and NEVER gets anywhere, ever, is that often the holders of either opinion often forget one thing: Just because it's truth for one, or two, or five, doesn't make it truth for all.

Two qoutes, both from the GT5 box:

"The real driving simulator"

and

"Gran Turismo returns with the most realistic and complete racing experience"

So what do these statments prove? Do they prove GT5 is a racing game or not?
Certainly these are both referenced in these repeated debates, so they must be proof of something right? Certainly the first means GT5 is just about the driving. And the second? Must mean it's all about the racing.
Nope.
Just means the advertising people wanted to generate an exciting image for this product.
So what is GT5 then?
It's whatever each of us wants it to be (within reason), whatever we want to use it for (again within reason), and whatever each of us believes it to be (yep, within reason)(scary that I felt I had to add that).
So, if people want to spend thier days on GTP debating if GT is a race game or not, more power to them. Just remember, if you pick one side or the other, it doesn't matter what it says on the box, or what real life is like in comparision, it is 100% a sure thing somebody is always going to dissagree. There are just certain things in life where an opinion is truth when applied to the individual, but is never fact when applied to the masses as a whole.
No matter what it says on the box.

Cheers

 

[Bye Ya]

One thing that I find amusing is that people complain about how the same subjects keep being brought up. Well, this is the game PD put out, and this is the GT5 forum. Until the controversial parts of the game cease to be controversial (and they're not changing them at this point), it's going to be what the GT5 discussion involves. And this is what a forum is for, is it not? If you don't want to read other peoples' opinions maybe forums aren't for you.

 

[MoGoSpeed]

^ It's just people keep thinking they are bringing up a new issue that already hasn't been beaten to death.

In forums as you obviously know, there's a search button.

 

[NA]

Never mind, I see the post that I missed.

 

[Tenacious D]

Bye Ya, I stand corrected.

And I think NA pretty much wrapped a bow around the issue. Clearly, it almost seems that some of us are playing entirely different GT5s. But this is what happens when a bunch of us love the Standard cars and tracks, while to others it's a complete fail on PD's part. I can understand why people grouch, "Why should we have to make GT5 fun, when other racers just are?" Okay, but this is the situation. If making GT5 fun is beneath your dignity, I really think that having your say a few dozen times - and knowing full well that it will take time to get there - you need to either be patient and less of a strain on the rest of us, or take your dignity to a game, and board, that makes you happy. For instance, I rarely post in any Forza sections, and certainly not on any Forza boards, because nothing good would come of it. If you think Gran Turismo fans are touchy...

As many of us have said numerous times, there is criticism, and then there's just being a tard about things. It's like if you made every meal served to you seem like utter crap when a few things are wrong with it, as if no other meal had some flaws. Who would want to sit anywhere near you?

 

[GTShadowKing]

GT5 is not a racing game, is a game where you race
Now seriously, I think that Fifa is a card game because of Ultimate Team Mode.

 

[axl54]

I find the AI in this game to be incredibly dull = always. I popped the game in for the first time in a couple of weeks, to do 1 of the new mini seasonals, and my mind literally glazed over, I couldn't even finish the race. The on rails, robo AI, suck any enjoyment I get out of the singleplayer GT5, the only thing I enjoy there is hotlapping.
Imo PD have needed to sort this issue out for 15 years, I sincerly hope that some of their new expanded staff can finally bring some dynamic, and exciting AI to the series in future, otherwise I'm out, and it's a shame because I've been a huge GT fan from the start. The Cell is still a really good CPU, there is absolutely no excuse for such insipid AI in 2010/2011.