La Discussion Difficile - Runoffs in F1

[Metar]

Since we're having this discussion on every single Grand Prix taking place on a new circuit, I believe there's a need for a separate discussion.

Runoffs and Safety-zones - Good, Bad, and what has to be changed?


Here's my view.

Pros:

Safety first. Even if we're turning Eau Rouge into a parking-lot, or allow people to keep racing after the most idiotic mistakes - when something goes wrong beyond the "overshot the corner", a safe, big runoff zone is vital. We've seen just how ineffective gravel is in stopping cars. Raikkonen's Monza incident, Hamiton's Nurburgring shunt, Coulthard's flight into the wall at Monza. Cars don't stop - they just keep flying into the wall. And a concrete, or asphalt, run-off stops a car infinitely better.

Also, racing. Without runoffs, the whole Fuji race would be one of two things: Either a safety-car parade, cancellation or a quiet procession with nobody daring to pass for fear of ending their race. Or, we'd see two-three drivers finishing because everyone else would be in the mud.
With asphalt runoffs, everyone has another chance. You lose time, you lose some self-esteem, but that's it, and lets race. We'd see a race without the Kubica/Massa battle, without Raikkonen reaching the finish, and without many overtakes.


Cons: Introducing over-aggressiveness. Drivers of today can be incredibly aggressive - because what could possibly happen? A few seconds lost, and then he's back in the game. If, before, you'd have to carefully calculate if you really want to make your move around this corner, now, it's simple. "There's a run-off? Ok, lets attack". We see even drivers like Raikkonen and Massa spending the weekend in the runoffs (I'm discounting the actual race because of the conditions). The legendary Villeneuve/Arnoux battle was on the edge - a bit less luck, and they'd both end in the gravel - but the Massa/Kubica battle was completely safe, with the worst thing possibly being losing that one place.

Plus, there's the visual drawback. Who here likes to see asphalt all over the screen? You race at Bahrain, but you can't see the desert sand anyway. You race at Fuji, but you can't see grass and mud. You race at Spa, but it could've been a mountainous car park.


What has to be changed?

I don't know really. Visually, they could just paint it whatever colour is appropriate for the place.

However, solving the aggressiveness is a problem. With runoffs covering whole circuits by now, drivers can push everywhere with minimal risks. So I suggest this: Aggressive surfacing on the runoff, like Paul Ricard. When a driver can go off-track and return, there has to be a penalty. And I suggest a gradient surface that becomes more aggressive (IE, more grippy, but also damaging to the tyres) the more you go off-track. So, putting two wheels on it while the others are on-track won't harm you at all - that's a common thing to do in racing - but go 3-4 meters into the runoff, and you might lose a few laps' worth of tyre performance. Go really deep, and you'll need to pit for a fresh set. That way, racing can go on, but major offs are punished.


So, what do you think? Keep it clean, logical, and if you can, explain.

 

[Omnis]

Maybe they could put nets on the edge of the road to discourage abusing the runoff. While still being safe, go too far and your race is over.

 

[Blake]

That’s catch fencing Omnis. That’s how Gilles died.

 

[Casio]

Maybe if they go onto the run-off area they have to reduce down to pit lane speed or something.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If they insist on having tarmac - and I can see all the benefits - the least they could do is paint the run-off areas so it looks like grass (or sand, as the case is in Bahrain).

 

[Metar]

Maybe if they go onto the run-off area they have to reduce down to pit lane speed or something.

With standartized ECUs and advanced tracking-systems, I can honestly see that happen. Kinda like the punishment in GT4's rally races - get off the track, and you're down to 3rd gear for a few seconds.

Maybe even make the punishment-time depending on how deep you went off?

 

[TheCracker]

I think run-offs are a good thing. For wide tyred cars, gravel traps just don't retard the cars enough. It's a different matter for saloon cars .

You do actually have substantial curbs between the track and most run-off areas. You really don't want to be transversing curbs if you can help it, they can and do damage the underneath of a car and can bend suspension components. A run-off area isn't necessarily a get-out-of-jail-free card.

The trick when designing a track is to balance the height of a curb so it's not too low so there's little discouragement in using the run-of area - yet they're not so high as to launch the car over most of the run-off and straight into a tyre wall.

 

[Blake]

If they insist on having tarmac - and I can see all the benefits - the least they could do is paint the run-off areas so it looks like grass (or sand, as the case is in Bahrain).

Is it just me, or does putting paint onto tarmac diminish the point of having super grippy run-off?

 

[DQuaN]

That’s catch fencing Omnis. That’s how Gilles died.

And being flung from his car at high speed had nothing to do with it?

 

[Muzaffar]

For me is simple, do like what Monteal does. Have walls meters away from the circuit. Maybe a few runoff areas like 1-2m should be good. Rewards those who are brave, punish those who are stupid ..... (like Tonio Liuzzi )

 

[Blake]

And being flung from his car at high speed had nothing to do with it?

He was still conscious before he hit the pole with his head, so I’d say being flung from the car did him no real damage. It was the stop that did it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Is it just me, or does putting paint onto tarmac diminish the point of having super grippy run-off?

I'm sure they'll find a way to mix it in. Heck, they could even use astro-turf as run-off; provided it's one a stable enough base, it could probably do well as a substitute for tarmac. I believe that some astro-turf actually does get used; ITV made mention of it a few times during the last race.

 

[Blake]

I'm sure they'll find a way to mix it in. Heck, they could even use astro-turf as run-off; provided it's one a stable enough base, it could probably do well as a substitute for tarmac. I believe that some astro-turf actually does get used; ITV made mention of it a few times during the last race.

Astro-turf has no grip. There’s a meter of it surrounding the track to discourage you from going off the race track. Then there is super-grippy tarmac on the outside of it which will actually slow you down.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Well, there's probably a solution out that somewhere that means the circuit won't look like the car park of a Wal Mart.

 

[mipuumal]

For me is simple, do like what Monteal does. Have walls meters away from the circuit. Maybe a few runoff areas like 1-2m should be good. Rewards those who are brave, punish those who are stupid ..... (like Tonio Liuzzi )

And Kubica?

Maybe they should do a mixed runoff area, every 5-10 meters it changes from tarmac - gravel - grass - sandpaper (💡).

The real problem are the marbles that come off the tyres, if there were no marbles then the drivers would have more runoff on the actual track and there would be more Kubica/Massa and Gilles/Arnoux duels on the actual track.

 

[Only_in_f1]

Runoffs are bad IMO. Its up to the driver to stay on the track. like Spa's first corner, if that happend in 2004 Hamilton was in the wall. but he lost no time for risking side by side with 'Nando.
They should fill them all with gravel. Or build them like Monaco .

 

[Metar]

I think run-offs are a good thing. For wide tyred cars, gravel traps just don't retard the cars enough. It's a different matter for saloon cars .

You do actually have substantial curbs between the track and most run-off areas. You really don't want to be transversing curbs if you can help it, they can and do damage the underneath of a car and can bend suspension components. A run-off area isn't necessarily a get-out-of-jail-free card.

The trick when designing a track is to balance the height of a curb so it's not too low so there's little discouragement in using the run-of area - yet they're not so high as to launch the car over most of the run-off and straight into a tyre wall.

I'm sure you've seen the Istanbul GP, and Spa race. Or Fuji. Apart from a few corners, most curbs are low enough that even top drivers use them regularly without drawbacks. Hamilton had a lap where he explored the marvels of Spa's sweepers from an outside point of view, not to mention Yamamoto's, Vettel's and Massa's moments at Istanbul. Or any driver at Fuji.

Is it just me, or does putting paint onto tarmac diminish the point of having super grippy run-off?

There's a sort of coloured coating used in Paul Ricard which actually increases grip - but in this case, is also designed to damage the tyres a bit, as punishment for those flying too high.

 

[Omnis]

He was still conscious before he hit the pole with his head, so I’d say being flung from the car did him no real damage. It was the stop that did it.

No, it wouldn't be catch fencing, it would be like dragger nets. They would have a spider-web effect, in that once the car gets caught up in it, it won't get out.

I'm sure there are better ways to achieve the same goal, but my method would, like, quadruple the American viewing audience.

 

[<_Spike_>]

IMO, and I'll put it simply, Run offs + aggressive driving and desire to win = Some great racing from time to time as we saw from Massa & Kubica at the end of the Japanese GP. Now that was proper racing that we've rarely seen, had there not been run offs we wouldn't have got that and it would've resulted in either a crash or a subdued final few corners. Perhaps something that would slow them down more would be good. In the end you cannot substitute safety for anything in this sport, and to do so would be reckless and clear neglect for the safety of those who race (in any sport)

 

[Danoff]

Runoffs 👎

Not enough penalty for screwing up. That's why we all love Monaco.

 

[Skid Mark 33]

I really hate the new alsphat runoffs. Like at Eau Rouge at Spa-Frochamps for example. Back in the 1990's, if you messed it up and found yourself on the gravel that was it, your race was finished. Now, if they mess it up, there is a huge alsphat run off, which means the driver can get control back ever so easily, and carrying on racing. Eau Rouge used to be a challange, now it's just any old corner, with it's history aside. I think if a driver messes up and goes of the track, they should have to pay the consequences!

 

[TheCracker]

I really hate the new alsphat runoffs. Like at Eau Rouge at Spa-Frochamps for example. Back in the 1990's, if you messed it up and found yourself on the gravel that was it, your race was finished. Now, if they mess it up, there is a huge alsphat run off, which means the driver can get control back ever so easily, and carrying on racing. Eau Rouge used to be a challange, now it's just any old corner, with it's history aside. I think if a driver messes up and goes of the track, they should have to pay the consequences!

I don't think the meagre asphalt run-off at Eau Rouge has spoilt the corner at all. Increased levels of downforce on contemporary F1's has maybe decreased the spectacle that once was Eau Rouge on a Grand Prix weekend. All the run-off has done is increase the chance of somebody surviving an accident. A little too much oversteer in any race car through Eau Rouge will still likely result in a heavily destroyed car at best.

 

[Smallhorses]

No, it wouldn't be catch fencing, it would be like dragger nets. They would have a spider-web effect, in that once the car gets caught up in it, it won't get out.

I'm sure there are better ways to achieve the same goal, but my method would, like, quadruple the American viewing audience.

If the sort of viewers that it'd attract are just the sort that want to see cars going off into crash nets instead of actually watching the racing, then you can keep them. 👎
They're not the sort of viewers F1 wants anyway, regardless of viewing figures.
Go watch some Monster trucks or banger racing instead.

 

[Kylehnat]

'Gator filled moats. Only the brave dare risk it.

 

[Milliethemutt]

I see the point that something needs to be done. Didn't someone go all the way round the run off on the outside and keep a place a GP or 2 ago?

How about some collapsible markers on the exterior of the track? Something not so much as to stop the car but going through them would risk damage to aero parts.

 

[zoxxy]

Runoffs 👎

Not enough penalty for screwing up. That's why we all love Monaco.

In that case, why don't we surround the track with land mines and barbwire. Also, flamethrowers around the track blazing at the blue flaggers would be my special 'Hello' to Trulli.

 

[peterjford]

However, solving the aggressiveness is a problem. With runoffs covering whole circuits by now, drivers can push everywhere with minimal risks. So I suggest this: Aggressive surfacing on the runoff, like Paul Ricard. When a driver can go off-track and return, there has to be a penalty. And I suggest a gradient surface that becomes more aggressive (IE, more grippy, but also damaging to the tyres) the more you go off-track. So, putting two wheels on it while the others are on-track won't harm you at all - that's a common thing to do in racing - but go 3-4 meters into the runoff, and you might lose a few laps' worth of tyre performance. Go really deep, and you'll need to pit for a fresh set. That way, racing can go on, but major offs are punished.


So, what do you think? Keep it clean, logical, and if you can, explain.

I like this idea of there being a 'penalty' for going off too far without risk to the driver. I do wish they could paint them different colors though, maybe the paint could contain the abrasives for the tire wear/damage. Also this would make it so that a driver that was forced off by another would not receive (much of) a 'penalty' for going off to avoid an accident.

The idea of making the cars loose power or being forced into a gear for a period of time would lead to too many complaints and appeals. Keep the racing and the 'penalty' on the track and out of the courtroom.

I also think that gravel has its place, especially after the race in China. I was not overjoyed at Hamilton getting stuck in the gravel, but he (or the team) did stay out on those tires a bit too long and they paid the price. Now we have a 3 way battle going into the last race.

 

[Skid Mark 33]

I like this idea of there being a 'penalty' for going off too far without risk to the driver. I do wish they could paint them different colors though, maybe the paint could contain the abrasives for the tire wear/damage. Also this would make it so that a driver that was forced off by another would not receive (much of) a 'penalty' for going off to avoid an accident.

The idea of making the cars loose power or being forced into a gear for a period of time would lead to too many complaints and appeals. Keep the racing and the 'penalty' on the track and out of the courtroom.

I also think that gravel has its place, especially after the race in China. I was not overjoyed at Hamilton getting stuck in the gravel, but he (or the team) did stay out on those tires a bit too long and they paid the price. Now we have a 3 way battle going into the last race.

I was'nt either but if a driver makes a mistake then they have to face the consequences. I am glad that Silverstone does not have many tarmac run-offs, otherwise it would make the circuit even easier!