Lewis Hamilton will leave McLaren?

[F1 fan]

Marketing reasons or not, they'll still go with the best they have available. Personally, I hate nationality bias. It's just a low form of racism as far as I'm concerned.

 

[niky]

Marketing reasons or not, they'll still go with the best they have available. Personally, I hate nationality bias. It's just a low form of racism as far as I'm concerned.

Less racism than overt flag-waving behavior. Ultra-nationalism makes for good advertising bucks back home... Which is what inspired the A1GP series.

It's not any more racist than the Olympics. And, though I hesitate to point it out, Lewis is a black driver on a very white team...

 

[F1 fan]

Less racism than overt flag-waving behavior. Ultra-nationalism makes for good advertising bucks back home... Which is what inspired the A1GP series.

It's not any more racist than the Olympics. And, though I hesitate to point it out, Lewis is a black driver on a very white team...

Well yes it is. The olympics is about countries competing against each other. Any country can enter and have representation. Formula 1 is different as the grid size and national representation is limited. It is not about countries, instead it is down to teams, and individuals. Supporting someone just because you come from the same country is ridiculous. Are you trying to tell me that you didn't go to school with at least one despicable idiot? Would you support him/her if they made it to Formula one over a likeable person? Personally, I support whoever I feel compelled to support, regardless of where they are from.

 

[niky]

As do I, but still, it's their team, they can run it any way they want.

I don't see anything wrong with their current line-up. They have two British drivers who've both won drivers championships and who are both giving them results. They might not be fighting as hard for the championship as they'd like, but that's down to the car more than the drivers.

I've gone to school with many unlikeable idiots. And some of them from other countries. Has nothing to do with a team picking a qualified and talented driver over another qualified and talented driver simply because of their nationality. It's no different from another team picking a driver simply because of the sponsor money they bring in (because, in the end, that's what patriotic branding is all about). Except in this case, the drivers they've picked are pretty good drivers who aren't as rusty and crusty as Michael Schumacher.

And likeable is up for interpretation. Would I put an unlikeable person on my team if that guarantees me a championship? You won't find many team managers who'd say no to that... I mean... come on... look at how many arrogant arses are playing futbol in Europe at the moment...

 

[F1 fan]

As do I, but still, it's their team, they can run it any way they want.

I don't see anything wrong with their current line-up. They have two British drivers who've both won drivers championships and who are both giving them results. They might not be fighting as hard for the championship as they'd like, but that's down to the car more than the drivers.

I've gone to school with many unlikeable idiots. And some of them from other countries. Has nothing to do with a team picking a qualified and talented driver over another qualified and talented driver simply because of their nationality. It's no different from another team picking a driver simply because of the sponsor money they bring in (because, in the end, that's what patriotic branding is all about). Except in this case, the drivers they've picked are pretty good drivers who aren't as rusty and crusty as Michael Schumacher.

And likeable is up for interpretation. Would I put an unlikeable person on my team if that guarantees me a championship? You won't find many team managers who'd say no to that... I mean... come on... look at how many arrogant arses are playing futbol in Europe at the moment...

I don't watch Football. That's one of the main reasons why. Another is the constant excuse for violence and bigotry that football has become. Some people have lost track of the fact that it's a sport.

Another reason is diving. And yet the mainstream media made such a big thing out of "crashgate". Sure, it was a disgrace, but if you look at the amount of diving that goes on week in, week out in football, it's really just a splash in the ocean. Then you had all the conspiracy theorists accusing Glock of letting Hamilton through at Interlagos 08. A simple onboard will show you how much he was fighting the car. As for Button and Hamilton, I'm not doubting their talent, I was question how someone could describe one of Hamilton's best attributes being his nationality. As for likeable, I meant someone who comes across as likeable for their personality/attitude to you, not the masses.

 

[niky]

I like nice guys. But if you want a champion, nine times out of ten, he'll be ruthless as hell. And that's what Hamilton is... no apologies. Just like Schumacher, just like Alonso, just like Senna.

To you or me, Hamilton's nationality means nothing. But what matters is what it means to the guys paying the bills.

Why do you think Danica Patrick gets paid so much? Drivers who attract press attention, whether for their nationality, their gender or their color (think Tiger Woods in golf) generate ad revenues. And without ad revenue, televised sports wouldn't be such big business.

 

[Ardius]

I'd actually argue that two drivers of the same nationality is actually kind of limiting for marketing because quite obviously you only have one country interested. For example, currently Vodafone can make plenty of adverts for the British public featuring either WDC or both of them...but when it comes to any other country, they are kind of limited. The global brand exposure isn't quite as good then...and thats the point of being involved in F1. If Vodafone simply wanted brand exposure and famous figures in Britain, they would have stuck to football or tennis.

I think its pretty clear Button was hired because of his talent, his nationality made things easier sure, but he would have been hired even if he was Libyan, North Korean...whatever. McLaren were not getting the most out of Kovalainen and needed a driver who was much closer to Hamilton on pace, more consistently.

You could make the same argument for Button being an easier personality to work with and much better PR for sponsors. But again, even without this, McLaren were going to hire him anyway.

By the way, McLaren had actually approached Barrichello way before they approached Button in 2009, but Rubens turned them down as he had already signed with Williams at the time. If McLaren really wanted the double-Brit combination, why did they go for Button last?

I feel confident in saying F1 is almost entirely without national bias in this respect. And so it should be. All of the teams hire the best possible personnel for their organisation on talent above anything else. The only time nationality comes into this is when a certain driver's sponsors are willing to put a big pot of gold down because of a new GP (e.g. Indian GP, Kathikeyan).

So to get back to the original point of this discussion - McLaren won't want to lose Lewis Hamilton because of his talent, regardless of his nationality and its potential benefits. In the same way that losing Raikkonen to Ferrari wasn't exactly made easier just because he was Finnish.

 

[Lizard]

If he has a brain Hamilton will stay with Mclaren as they are the best team on the grid at the moment after the god of aero retires.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I'd actually argue that two drivers of the same nationality is actually kind of limiting for marketing because quite obviously you only have one country interested. For example, currently Vodafone can make plenty of adverts for the British public featuring either WDC or both of them...but when it comes to any other country, they are kind of limited. The global brand exposure isn't quite as good then...and thats the point of being involved in F1. If Vodafone simply wanted brand exposure and famous figures in Britain, they would have stuck to football or tennis.

I think its pretty clear Button was hired because of his talent, his nationality made things easier sure, but he would have been hired even if he was Libyan, North Korean...whatever. McLaren were not getting the most out of Kovalainen and needed a driver who was much closer to Hamilton on pace, more consistently.

You could make the same argument for Button being an easier personality to work with and much better PR for sponsors. But again, even without this, McLaren were going to hire him anyway.

By the way, McLaren had actually approached Barrichello way before they approached Button in 2009, but Rubens turned them down as he had already signed with Williams at the time. If McLaren really wanted the double-Brit combination, why did they go for Button last?

I feel confident in saying F1 is almost entirely without national bias in this respect. And so it should be. All of the teams hire the best possible personnel for their organisation on talent above anything else. The only time nationality comes into this is when a certain driver's sponsors are willing to put a big pot of gold down because of a new GP (e.g. Indian GP, Kathikeyan).

So to get back to the original point of this discussion - McLaren won't want to lose Lewis Hamilton because of his talent, regardless of his nationality and its potential benefits. In the same way that losing Raikkonen to Ferrari wasn't exactly made easier just because he was Finnish.

I'd say they approached Barrichello because they would assume Brawn would have kept Button as he'd won the Championship. After all, it would be rather silly not signing your championship winning driver again.

Now we have a Mclaren British team and a Mercedes German team. Both are very good at marketing in one specific country and not so good outside that.

As far Lewis leaving McLaren. Has anyone considered how well he was able to get under the skin of Alonso? He won the psychological battle easily and effectually drove Alonso out of the team. That's no mean achievement as Alonso is very strong in this area as well.

He's found that he can't do this with Button and his driving shows that, if anything, Button is getting to him instead.

Even though he is slightly quicker than Button, he doesn't seem to be able to dominate him in the way he expected to.

 

[Moot]

Alonso did not care about Lewis, Lewis did not push him out of the team. Alonso left because management would not let him be driver number 1.

 

[Hun200kmh]

The way I see it Alonso won the psychological battle even with the team backing his team mate. Lewis therefore won the political battle, and Alonso left.

Seeing Alonso stopped those perfectly timed few extra seconds in Hungary's pitlane, just to teach the 'kid' a lesson ... and watching Dennis' FURY afterwards was, and still is, very funny, bordering priceless

 

[Ardius]

I'd say they approached Barrichello because they would assume Brawn would have kept Button as he'd won the Championship. After all, it would be rather silly not signing your championship winning driver again.

Aw come on, you know better than that. McLaren would have approached several drivers regardless of their current or potential contracts, it happens every year. Most of the time, the teams and drivers do it to "scare" each other into improving their conditions or making a decision. Even if McLaren had assumed Button was signed up, they would have (and did in the end) made an approach to scope him out, even if it was to try and worry Kovalainen into signing better conditions or make another driver make a decision to sign for them.

The way I see it Alonso won the psychological battle even with the team backing his team mate. Lewis therefore won the political battle, and Alonso left.

Seeing Alonso stopped those perfectly timed few extra seconds in Hungary's pitlane, just to teach the 'kid' a lesson ... and watching Dennis' FURY afterwards was, and still is, very funny, bordering priceless

I very much miss that season almost entirely for the hilarity of Hamilton/Alonso.

Its kind of weird that Hamilton is making some mistakes almost like Alonso did back then today. I guess it shows how important psychology is, because both Alonso and Hamilton clearly felt they were much better than their new teammate and were surprised and made several mistakes in doing so. Although, I'm not sure whether Hamilton really is bothered by Button at all, I think most of his mistakes this year are really down to his own personal aggression.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The way I see it Alonso won the psychological battle even with the team backing his team mate. Lewis therefore won the political battle, and Alonso left.

Seeing Alonso stopped those perfectly timed few extra seconds in Hungary's pitlane, just to teach the 'kid' a lesson ... and watching Dennis' FURY afterwards was, and still is, very funny, bordering priceless

To me that episode proves Hamilton had got to him in a big way. It was also the very definition of grossly unprofessional as well. I would have fired Alonso on the spot if I was the team boss.

I disagree with any suggestion that Alonso did anything be lose the battle with Hamilton. No matter which way you want to look at it. He ran away from the team. Hamilton didn't.

Aw come on, you know better than that. McLaren would have approached several drivers regardless of their current or potential contracts, it happens every year. Most of the time, the teams and drivers do it to "scare" each other into improving their conditions or making a decision. Even if McLaren had assumed Button was signed up, they would have (and did in the end) made an approach to scope him out, even if it was to try and worry Kovalainen into signing better conditions or make another driver make a decision to sign for them.

Err yes? I was only replying to why they approached him before looking at Button.

 

[Ardius]

I dunno, in some respects I can understand Alonso's frustration. He went to a championship-contending team with the goal of winning. He is told that the team are hiring a rookie as his teammate. Would you not be annoyed and frustrated that not only is the rookie fast enough to beat you but the team are not helping you at all?
The final straw for Alonso was when Ron Dennis famously said "We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.".

Of course, I agree Alonso was weak for running away and he dealt with the situation poorly. But I also think he was pretty badly treated by McLaren as it was clear they were almost completely behind Hamilton. It almost felt like Alonso was hired just to be beaten by Hamilton. Hamilton also did nothing to help that relationship, and he has admitted as much recently.

Hungary 2007 wasn't just Alonso's fault too though, that was apparently caused by Hamilton breaking an earlier agreement.

 

[Tired Tyres]

I dunno, in some respects I can understand Alonso's frustration. He went to a championship-contending team with the goal of winning. He is told that the team are hiring a rookie as his teammate. Would you not be annoyed and frustrated that not only is the rookie fast enough to beat you but the team are not helping you at all?
The final straw for Alonso was when Ron Dennis famously said "We weren’t racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando.".

Of course, I agree Alonso was weak for running away and he dealt with the situation poorly. But I also think he was pretty badly treated by McLaren as it was clear they were almost completely behind Hamilton. It almost felt like Alonso was hired just to be beaten by Hamilton. Hamilton also did nothing to help that relationship, and he has admitted as much recently.

Hungary 2007 wasn't just Alonso's fault too though, that was apparently caused by Hamilton breaking an earlier agreement.

Yes but I'd like to think that I'd knuckle down and concentrate on beating him in every session of every race though rather that crying about it.

 

[Ardius]

Indeed, and I agree that in that respect, Alonso handled it poorly. But equally I don't really blame him for taking it the way he did because it was pretty unacceptable for the team to act that way.
If Hamilton moved to Renault say and Eric Boullier brought in his favoured rookie with the same kind of situation - do you reckon Lewis would knuckle down or would he cry about it and let it affect his driving? I'm not sure he would just knuckle down, he would most likely find a contract elsewhere. He is pretty vocal himself in the press and he can clearly get frustrated, I honestly don't think Hamilton is a million miles different from Alonso.

 

[Hun200kmh]

To me that episode proves Hamilton had got to him in a big way. It was also the very definition of grossly unprofessional as well. I would have fired Alonso on the spot if I was the team boss.

I disagree with any suggestion that Alonso did anything be lose the battle with Hamilton. No matter which way you want to look at it. He ran away from the team. Hamilton didn't.

What? Grossly unprofessional? Alonso couldn't be more professional than that. He coldly, professionnaly, ruthlessly, showed Hamilton that he wasn't there to be pushed around and he didn't care if Lewis was the owner's dear and favourite. Lewis tried to own him a big way, Alonso decided to show him - and the entire team - that he cared less about sticking at McLaren than he cared about being respected in the team. Had he acted in aany other way he would've become Dennis/Lewis 🤬

Watch. Beautifully done. Respect earner in the long term, with the sacrifice of his job coming, but that didn't matter to him and THAT was what Dennis didn't expect (of course you may not like it to be that way, but that's just how it was):

[YOUTUBEHD]CWJCGInsVUs[/YOUTUBEHD]

 

[Moot]

Hamilton has said his next contract terms with McLaren will come as a suprise to them, he says he will demand time to himself and not be committed to doing nearly as much sponsorship work for the team.
So the balls in McLarens court now. Maybe they should give Di restsa the new tennis racket?

 

[Moot]

nothing here

 

[Northstar]

Hamilton has said his next contract terms with McLaren will come as a suprise to them, he says he will demand time to himself and not be committed to doing nearly as much sponsorship work for the team.
So the balls in McLarens court now. Maybe they should give Di restsa the new tennis racket?

Does he really think it's going to be different elsewhere?

I hope McLaren gets rid of him.

 

[Ardius]

Raikkonen demanded similar terms at Ferrari (less commercial work), so its not surprising.

But Hamilton is kind of right but also silly to do what he's doing. He's right in that ok, he is clearly fast enough to deserve a much better car than McLaren are delivering the past 3 years. But he is silly because really, where else can he go?
I fear if he isn't careful he will run into a Jacques Villenueve situation (though perhaps not quite so dramatic).

If I was McLaren I'd try and keep Hamilton though I would definitely push the negogiatons here by pointing to Lewis' mistakes, the fact there are some promising drivers floating about and that he has little other options. Lewis certainly doesn't hold all the cards here.

 

[Moot]

Does he really think it's going to be different elsewhere?

I hope McLaren gets rid of him.

Haven't you read the posts on this?
As said above McLaren are renowned for slaving their drivers around for sponsors. On the other hand Red Bull are more moderate in their driver commitments outside of driving.

 

[Northstar]

Haven't you read the posts on this?
As said above McLaren are renowned for slaving their drivers around for sponsors. On the other hand Red Bull are more moderate in their driver commitments outside of driving.

Of course Red Bull has fewer commitments, they have fewer sponsors. Their primary sponsor does also happen to be the company that owns the team after all.

What I got from what Hamilton's quotes was he basically wants to do nothing sponsor related(or at least the ones he doesn't want to do).

"When I re-sign the contract with McLaren they are going to be shocked at how many days they are not going to be able to make me do,"

Link

 

[Moot]

Which may mean he only wants to do as many days as the Red Bull drivers do, which is a reasonable request. McLaren can take or leave it.
Lewis has already said he would drive for free, or even pay to drive for the right team..

 

[Ardius]

As I said, Lewis doesn't really have all the cards here, where else can he go? Is he really that valuable to McLaren that they are willing to make such concessions?
Typical driver market negogitations but it may well be simply token negogiations while he secures a seat elsewhere. Perhaps he doesn't even think McLaren will accept and is just pushing them to make someone else give him an offer.

 

[Terronium-12]

What? Grossly unprofessional? Alonso couldn't be more professional than that. He coldly, professionnaly, ruthlessly, showed Hamilton that he wasn't there to be pushed around and he didn't care if Lewis was the owner's dear and favourite. Lewis tried to own him a big way, Alonso decided to show him - and the entire team - that he cared less about sticking at McLaren than he cared about being respected in the team. Had he acted in aany other way he would've become Dennis/Lewis 🤬

Watch. Beautifully done. Respect earner in the long term, with the sacrifice of his job coming, but that didn't matter to him and THAT was what Dennis didn't expect (of course you may not like it to be that way, but that's just how it was):

~ Alonso basically saying "🤬 off" ~

I seriously, seriously have a new found respect for Alonso. That was just brilliant.

 

[niky]

Raikkonen demanded similar terms at Ferrari (less commercial work), so its not surprising.

But Hamilton is kind of right but also silly to do what he's doing. He's right in that ok, he is clearly fast enough to deserve a much better car than McLaren are delivering the past 3 years. But he is silly because really, where else can he go?
I fear if he isn't careful he will run into a Jacques Villenueve situation (though perhaps not quite so dramatic).

If I was McLaren I'd try and keep Hamilton though I would definitely push the negogiatons here by pointing to Lewis' mistakes, the fact there are some promising drivers floating about and that he has little other options. Lewis certainly doesn't hold all the cards here.

I've been thinking about this, and in light of some ruminations by the STAR commentators last night (Marsh and Slater), a light bulb went off...

Alonso is a terrific development driver. No ifs and buts. He was great for Renault... and when he returned to Renault after the disaster at McLaren, he brought their pace back up to halfway respectable. He knows his car inside and out, and can drive the wheels off of anything. I'd felt that the whole Renault saga showed him as kind of a one-trick pony... only being able to drive that particular car... but he's shown in the past three team changes that he can take anything and make it good.

That's something he has over someone like Kimi Raikkonen. And it might be something he has over Hamilton.

Clearly, McLaren have a problem. But when you have problems, part of the solution lies in how well the drivers communicate with the engineers about what they need from the car. And part of the blame for bad decisions mid-race also lie on the driver. In this case, it seems that Button is superior to Hamilton. While Button can't match Hamilton's pace, he makes the right gambles at the right time, and has the gut instinct for what's right. Hamilton doesn't, and ends up blaming the organization for a decision he's had a part in.

Hamilton is a hot shoe. A flaming hot one. But he's not the all-arounder that Schumacher or Alonso are. And that's hurting his chances for another trophy. Changing teams will not change that situation.

 

[Ardius]

Indeed, which sounds rather Jacques Villenueve, wouldn't you say? Jacques went as far as moving to a brand new team and trying to bring it up the grid, consequently failing until a certain company called Prodrive came along. Sure, he drove the wheels off those BARs and the team did slowly make progress. But he didn't appear to be much of a team leader or development driver, and when BAR started hiring teammates that were decent (and Craig Pollock left), he started to lose the support of the team.
Lewis no longer has Ron Dennis to directly help him nor does he have an easy teammate in Kovalainen.

 

[niky]

One could argue that Button doesn't have the skill to challenge Hamilton for dominance... but Button's canny driving has him up there with Lewis (and if he didn't have that pit mishap, he would be leading him in points).

Yeah... it's sort of like a Jacques Villeneuve... sadly for Lewis... if he leaves McLaren, he might end up wandering in the wilderness for years before seeing another championship run...