lexus is300 vs bmw 325i

[OoNismoO]

so has anyone driven both cars? or what are your opinions on these cars? i think the lexus looks a little better, but i wouldnt know which car id pick till ive driven both. what are the stats , and performance numbers for the is300 manual transimission? if anyone has the stats/performance for both cars that would be great.

 

[Mike Rotch]

Would a comparison against the 330i be more equitable i.t.o. price, performance, specs?

 

[OoNismoO]

i dont know, the 330i has more power though.

 

[1X83Z]

Base on the IS300 (215bhp) is $29400; it's $28100 on the 325 (184bhp) but $35200 on the 330 (225bhp) so neither comparison is equal, but the 325 comparison is probably closer because despite the smaller engine it still performs acceptably and the 330, though a closer performer, is way too expensive.

In this class, I'd rather have the Lexus than any BMW, but I'd rather have the Mitsubishi Galant GTS, Infiniti G35 Leather sedan, Nissan Altima SE, Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, Acura TSX, and Mazda 6s than anything else.

 

[///M-Spec]

I have. The IS300 is the better performing car until you step up to a 330i. The IS has steering on par with the BMW, chassis that is more agressive than the base suspension and generally feels more sporty all around.

The 325i with base suspension is not a bad car, but tuned for comfort rather than performance and thus, not very interesting to drive. A sports pack 325i runs a little closer to the IS300, but still lags a bit in the acceleration and handling dept. About the only thing the 325 has going for it is that its more comfortable and larger.

If you're looking for a quality RWD sports sedan (emphisis on SPORT), I'd suggest a 330i ZSP (sport pack) 6-speed at least. Otherwise, go with the Lexus because the 325i just isn't quite there.


M

 

[sUn]

Lexus IS300, my couzin own's one in black on black leather, that car is damn fine, and it look's super good. The BMW is a good car but the price get's really high for the options, then there are the BMW service fee's. Lexus > BMW.

 

[///M-Spec]

The BMW is a good car but the price get's really high for the options, then there are the BMW service fee's.

What service fees? BMW gives you free maintanence for the entire time the car is under new car warranty, which is 4 years/50,000 miles.


M

 

[sUn]

Are you serious, the last I heard was that if you don't do there services they cut your warranty and that the service was like $300.

 

[///M-Spec]

Are you serious, the last I heard was that if you don't do there services they cut your warranty and that the service was like $300.

Of course I'm serious. BMW pays for everything for 4/50,000. Oil changes, plugs, filters, whatever. ITS FREE. They've been doing this since '97 or '98.

Now if you NEVER get the oil changed and the engien seizes or melts or something, then they probably will deny warranty coverage. And they'd be perfectly justified for doing so because you're an idiot.

After the warranty period, modern BMWs like the E46 are no more expensive to maintain than any other premium import car. Dealerships may try to charge you a lot, but there is no reason you MUST use one. There are plenty of independant shops out there that do a good job for less $.


M

 

[OoNismoO]

anyone got stats, and performance for the is300 or the 325i/330i, all with manual transmission? i looked online, but had a hard time finding accurate information.

 

[frestkd]

BMW 3 series have 6 speed manual transmissions.

 

[[]AzNDrifter[]]

Hmmm.... I thought you could only get 6-speed manual tran on the 3 Series M-Package.

Lexus IS300: 215HP,Inline 6, RWD,HID headlamps, 16" Aluminum Alloy wheels

BMW 325i:184HP-175ft/lb@3500,Inline 6,RWD

BMW 330i:225HP-214ft/lb@3500,RWD,Inline 6, Xenon Headlamps


If I were you , I would get the BMW 3 series, it holds its value much better then the IS300

 

[1X83Z]

Hmmm.... I thought you could only get 6-speed manual tran on the 3 Series M-Package.

[/b]

Here's the call.

A 5-speed manual transmission is standard on the 325 models. A 6-speed sequential manual transmission is a $2900 option on the sedan and wagon, a $2600 option on the AWD sedan and wagon, a $2500 option on the coupe, and a $2700 option on the convertible. A five-speed automatic with manual-shifter is a $1275 option.

A 6-speed manual transmission is standard on the 330 models and M3, with a 6-speed sequential manual transmission a $2700 option on the sedan, AWD sedan, AWD wagon and wagon, a $2100 option on the coupe, a $2300 option on the convertible, and a $2400 option on the M3 coupe and convertible. Once again, a 5-speed automatic with a manual shifter is a $1275 option except on the M3, where it's not available.

If I were you , I would get the BMW 3 series, it holds its value much better then the IS300

That's pretty unfair, considering Lexuses hold their value better than practically anything, and that the only reason the 3-series might re-sell at a significantly higher price than the Lexus is that the 3-series costs more to begin with.

anyone got stats, and performance for the is300 or the 325i/330i, all with manual transmission?

325i manual sedan = 0-60 in 7.7
330i manual sedan = 0-60 in 6.6
IS300 manual sedan = 0-60 in 7.2

I'll give the 3-series this: all 3-series models handle better than the IS300, 325i wagons included. Though it's not like the IS300 is pathetic, it handles extremely well. But it's no 3-series.

By the way:

Galant GTS automatic sedan = 0-60 in 6.8
G35 Leather manual sedan = 0-60 in 6.4
Altima SE manual sedan = 0-60 in 6.3 (third-quickest FWD car on the market)
Grand Prix GTP automatic sedan = 0-60 in 6.5 (fourth-quickest FWD car on the market)
TSX manual sedan = 0-60 in 7.8
6s manual sedan = 0-60 in 7.5

Think about it!!

 

[OoNismoO]

what about quater mile times? the fastest time ive seen for the is300 was 15.3, but that was the 5 speed automatic version. the fastest ive seen for the 330ci was 14.8, but yea its the coupe version. 0-60 was 6.2. overall steering ratio is something like 15.5:1. the interior of the bmw looks really nice.

the reason why the is300 got my attention was because of its double wishbone suspension all around, other wise id get the beemer. its easier to tune a double wishbone suspension, struts can perform just as good, but it takes more effort, like stiffer springs, more negative chamber. plus the double wishbone suspension will still have a more linear chamber change.

 

[1X83Z]

what about quater mile times?

I don't waste my time with quarter mile times - 0-60 is much more real-world applicable, and it provides the same sort of information.

 

[///M-Spec]

the fastest ive seen for the 330ci was 14.8, but yea its the coupe version.

The E46 coupe and sedan are mechanically identical. The coupe is no quicker or better handling than the sedan. In fact, because the sedan's unit body is stiffer, it is *slightly* better ultimately. However, the coupe body has a smaller frontal area and less drag.

the reason why the is300 got my attention was because of its double wishbone suspension all around, other wise id get the beemer. its easier to tune a double wishbone suspension, struts can perform just as good, but it takes more effort, like stiffer springs, more negative chamber. plus the double wishbone suspension will still have a more linear chamber change.

Yes, but on a street car, the difference is largely academic. Double wishbones look really good on paper, but a good strut front suspension can perform just as well. Consider the following cars that have front strut type suspensions: 911, GT-R, M3, Evo, STi. They are all pretty good handling cars, no?

If you want more negative camber on a strut car, just change out the struts or relocate the stock struts with camber plates. Many of them are adjustable. If you are on a budget, an $8 factory crash bolt can provide up to a degree of camber adjustment. That's what I did on my E-street prepared M3. I got static -2.0 degrees after slipping in the threaded bolt and a good alignment.

Even in near-stock racing series like Speed World Challenge, the strut cars don't really give up much to the wishbone cars. It is only after you leave the realm of production based cars and get into purpose built racers where you stop seeing struts being remotely competative.

I don't waste my time with quarter mile times - 0-60 is much more real-world applicable, and it provides the same sort of information.

Not really. 0-60 can be grossly affected by traction and gearing, where as quarter mile times --and especially trap speed -- can give you a much better indication of power/weight ratio.

A stock Evo 8 can probably hold off a C5 Vette until 60 mph (they are both ~4.8) if the Evo gets a good AWD launch and the C5 a mediocre one. But after a while, the C5's superior power/weight means it will pull steadily away. Looking at the trap speeds for both cars (Evo ~103, C5 ~108) and you will see it is a better number to look at. Note to Evo fan boys: don't get excited and post about cheap bolt ons changing the results-- its just an example.

Besides, when it is the last time two guys pulled up at a light and one said to the other : "I'll race you to 60!"


M

 

[1X83Z]

Besides, when it is the last time two guys pulled up at a light and one said to the other : "I'll race you to 60!"

But not since "The Fast and The Furious" did two guys pull up at a light and have an entire quarter mile ahead of them.

0-60 is still the better statistic for real-world use - it can be affected by traction, but not if you're intelligent, and so can the quarter mile. And it can be affected by gearing, but manufacturers know 0-60 is a common statistic and frequently put the upshift at 63 or 64mph. Even if they don't, good automatic transmissions and good drivers make it a non-issue.

A stock Evo 8 can probably hold off a C5 Vette until 60 mph (they are both ~4.8)

I've got the Evo 8 at 5.4, the C5 Corvette at 5.1, and the STi at 5.3. 4.8? You sound like an Evo fanboy.

 

[///M-Spec]

But not since "The Fast and The Furious" did two guys pull up at a light and have an entire quarter mile ahead of them.

Unfortunately, that's just not true. Read through the "Kill stories" or "Street Encounters" forum at most enthusiast sites and there is plenty of action going on out there well past 60.

0-60 is still the better statistic for real-world use - it can be affected by traction, but not if you're intelligent, and so can the quarter mile. And it can be affected by gearing, but manufacturers know 0-60 is a common statistic and frequently put the upshift at 63 or 64mph. Even if they don't, good automatic transmissions and good drivers make it a non-issue.

I disagree. 0-60 can lead people to think some cars are equal in performance when they are not. Look at my Evo vs. C5 example.

Here's another example. In my young and crazy days, I raced an LS1 Z28 in my E36 M3 3.0. It was from a stop. I got a good launch and held him off until about 70. After about the middle of third gear, he just walked away from me. 0-60, we were dead even ; but the LS1 simply crushed me at higher speeds.

I've got the Evo 8 at 5.4, the C5 Corvette at 5.1, and the STi at 5.3. 4.8? You sound like an Evo fanboy.

Well everyone knows turbo 4 cylinders are faster than V8s.

Road and Track has the Evo 8 doing 60 in 4.8 seconds in their 6/03 issue. I don't have my R&T going back to '96, but I do remember reading they got their C5 getting to 60 in 4.9 or 4.8. I know it was less than 5.0 seconds.


M

 

[OoNismoO]

heres a comparison of a jaguar double wishbone front vs wrx strut front suspension.

jaguar Starts at -0.5 static chamber at 0 bump

SusProg3D jaguar.s3d Front Roll and bump

Chassis roll values calculated every 1.00 degrees. Right hand turn.
Semi dynamic roll centre. Roll starts at 0.787 bump.
Toe variation has NOT been calculated.

Outer wheel (LH) roll centre
............chamber caster kpi scrub tramp toein offset height fvsax
0.00 roll -1.66 5.14 11.483 0.084 0.012 0.039 0.000 2.441 37.700
1.00 roll -1.41 5.21 11.231 0.083 0.019 0.039 -1.364 2.442 36.293
2.00 roll -1.19 5.28 11.008 0.080 0.027 0.039 -2.692 2.447 34.913
3.00 roll -0.99 5.35 10.816 0.075 0.034 0.039 -3.950 2.456 33.562
4.00 roll -0.83 5.42 10.657 0.069 0.041 0.039 -5.110 2.472 32.243
5.00 roll -0.71 5.49 10.531 0.062 0.048 0.039 -6.147 2.496 30.956
6.00 roll -0.62 5.56 10.443 0.053 0.055 0.039 -7.042 2.532 29.704
7.00 roll -0.56 5.62 10.392 0.044 0.061 0.039 -7.784 2.583 28.488
8.00 roll -0.55 5.68 10.381 0.034 0.067 0.039 -8.370 2.650 27.310

-----------------------------------

wrx -1.0 static chamber at 0 bump (stock)

SusProg3D Subaru.s3d Front Roll and bump

Chassis roll values calculated every 1.00 degrees. Right hand turn.
Semi dynamic roll centre. Roll starts at 0.787 bump.

Outer wheel (LH) roll centre
............chamber caster kpi scrub tramp toein offset height fvsax
0.00 roll -1.68 5.18 15.000 0.129 0.011 0.000 0.000 3.586 70.413
1.00 roll -1.06 5.28 14.358 0.123 0.018 0.000 -5.203 3.447 75.677
2.00 roll -0.41 5.37 13.686 0.108 0.025 0.001 -10.530 3.022 82.382
3.00 roll 0.27 5.48 12.981 0.087 0.033 0.003 -16.115 2.287 91.219
4.00 roll 0.98 5.59 12.240 0.065 0.040 0.007 -22.126 1.199 103.397
5.00 roll 1.74 5.70 11.461 0.049 0.047 0.012 -28.782 -0.316 121.248
6.00 roll 2.53 5.83 10.639 0.045 0.054 0.020 -36.402 -2.376 149.933
7.00 roll 3.36 5.96 9.771 0.061 0.061 0.031 -45.479 -5.172 203.574
8.00 roll 4.25 6.10 8.850 0.109 0.068 0.046 -56.835 -9.033 339.694

this doesnt mean cars with double wishbone will handle better than cars
with struts, but when tuning, its gonna require more effort to make it peform as good, and as you can see on those numbers, the double wishbone suspension will naturally have a more linear chamber change when compressed. also, not all double wishbone, and strut suspensions will perform the same, but generally the double wishbone design is favored over struts for better overall performance.

Double Wishbone > Macpherson Strut for asphalt

 

[1X83Z]

Unfortunately, that's just not true. Read through the "Kill stories" or "Street Encounters" forum at most enthusiast sites and there is plenty of action going on out there well past 60.

Do you have those?

The thing is, 0-60 is a much better measure for me because I get to see how fast cars are when they're just crusing around. For performance driving and racing, if you're into it, quarter-mile is a decent statistic - but I don't do any of that, and the vast majority of people don't either.

0-60, we were dead even ; but the LS1 simply crushed me at higher speeds.

Fine - if you go high speeds. But if I want to know how quick a car is going to be passing, or accelerating off stop lights to the speed limit - I look 0-60. I couldn't care less about quarter-mile.

Road and Track has the Evo 8 doing 60 in 4.8 seconds in their 6/03 issue. I don't have my R&T going back to '96, but I do remember reading they got their C5 getting to 60 in 4.9 or 4.8. I know it was less than 5.0 seconds.

Road & Track I believe even less than Car & Driver.

 

[Mike Rotch]

A shot in the dark, but arent acceleration times in 3rd, 4th and 5th a better indication of performance yet?

I remember thinking "well, with a V8, the S4 must be quite a monster in the overtaking stakes", until I saw the STi was much faster in 80kmh-120kmh acceleration tests in 3rd and 4th. I dont have my car mags at work with me, otherwise I would quote the actual times

 

[Josh]

I couldn't care less about quarter-mile.

Thus the reason you suck so much! Who gives a crap about 0-60? If we did we'd all be riding sportbikes. 50-150+ is where it's at, biotch.

 

[boombexus]

Lexus sucks.

However, contrary to Douglass's popular belief, I was looking at the BMW 330 at the same time I was considering the IS300. I just couldn't justify spending an additional $4000 just to have the BMW name. Essentially the BMW 330 and the IS300 are a very, very close comparison and it's only on paper where the BMW edges out the IS3.

Plus, "Lexus" just has a better ring to it.

 

[1X83Z]

50-150+ is where it's at, biotch.

For many of the people who frequent this forum, yes. For 90% of drivers, myself included ... no.

I just couldn't justify spending an additional $4000 just to have the BMW name.

Exactly. Though it would've meant a manual transmission.

I think the 3-series has become less popular recently for non-serious drivers because of its popularity in the past and the fact that the segment is practically flooded now. In essence, I think many people are buying Audi and Lexus just so they have something a bit different.

 

[boombexus]

Exactly. Though it would've meant a manual transmission.

True, I might have to use those silly buttons on my steering wheel, but I'm $4000 richer than those BMW owners.

I think the 3-series has become less popular recently for non-serious drivers because of its popularity in the past and the fact that the segment is practically flooded now. In essence, I think many people are buying Audi and Lexus just so they have something a bit different.

You think? The IS300 is a pig of a seller. Now Audi on the other hand, at least where I live, is a lively seller. I mean they are all over the place up here. Suppose for the AWD.

I have also driven the 330, the one that is AWD, and it's a pig compared to the IS300. But that's not really saying much as the IS300 really sucks ass in the snow. But nobody has a 330 AWD up here.

It's kinda cool to have a BMW test drive center at the place I work. I've driven the X5, the X3 and the 330ix AWD(???)

 

[///M-Spec]

heres a comparison of a jaguar double wishbone front vs wrx strut front suspension.

<SNIP>

this doesnt mean cars with double wishbone will handle better than cars
with struts, but when tuning, its gonna require more effort to make it peform as good, and as you can see on those numbers, the double wishbone suspension will naturally have a more linear chamber change when compressed.

You have this sort of data laying around, but you have trouble finding basic performance stats for a 325i and IS300?

I never denied that wishbones are superior to struts. I said that when you are shopping for a street car, I think the difference amounts to very very little. We're talking tenths of tenths here. Are you building a race car? I suspect not. And if you were, a near-luxury sedan is not exactly a good place to start. If you want total performance, you should be looking at a real sports car. Sedans are already deeply compromised as performance vehicles anyway.

Its up to you. If you want the simple satisfaction of knowing that your suspension geometry is less affected by body motion, go for it.


M

 

[///M-Spec]

True, I might have to use those silly buttons on my steering wheel, but I'm $4000 richer than those BMW owners.

Yes, but we get the $ back when its time to trade in or sell. Its like having it in escrow

I have also driven the 330, the one that is AWD, and it's a pig compared to the IS300.

Aw man, that's not really fair. The AWD cars don't come with sport suspension, come with crappy tires and sit 1.5 inches higher off the ground. And they understeer like mad. Try a 330i sport (ZSP) or better yet, a 330i ZHP.


M

 

[OoNismoO]

You have this sort of data laying around, but you have trouble finding basic performance stats for a 325i and IS300?

I never denied that wishbones are superior to struts. I said that when you are shopping for a street car, I think the difference amounts to very very little. We're talking tenths of tenths here. Are you building a race car? I suspect not. And if you were, a near-luxury sedan is not exactly a good place to start. If you want total performance, you should be looking at a real sports car. Sedans are already deeply compromised as performance vehicles anyway.

Its up to you. If you want the simple satisfaction of knowing that your suspension geometry is less affected by body motion, go for it.


M

well actually i got that from an engineering buddy of mine. i know you didnt deny that double wishbone was better, but just showing you that the difference is still there on street cars, the difference is really small, but its still there modified or stock.

another thing, im not gonna choose a car because of its suspension, i was just showing the difference between strut, and double wishbone. but yea, the difference is barely there.

 

[pimp racer]

Base on the IS300 (215bhp) is $29400; it's $28100 on the 325 (184bhp) but $35200 on the 330 (225bhp) so neither comparison is equal, but the 325 comparison is probably closer because despite the smaller engine it still performs acceptably and the 330, though a closer performer, is way too expensive.

In this class, I'd rather have the Lexus than any BMW, but I'd rather have the Mitsubishi Galant GTS, Infiniti G35 Leather sedan, Nissan Altima SE, Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, Acura TSX, and Mazda 6s than anything else.

Hey what do you think about th 04 TL?

 

[1X83Z]

Hey what do you think about th 04 TL?

I love it - it would be next to appear on that list. It's also the second-quickest front-drive car on the market. But I'd rather have the Galant GTS, G35 Leather sedan, Altima 3.5SE, Grand Prix GP, TSX, or 6s.

You think? The IS300 is a pig of a seller. Now Audi on the other hand, at least where I live, is a lively seller. I mean they are all over the place up here. Suppose for the AWD.

Well, I probably phrased it wrong - not just Lexus and Audi. Acura, Infiniti, Volvo, Mercedes, and Jaguar, too. They're all beginning to come up with lines that are nearly as complete as BMW's, though BMW is still king there - 2.5 coupe, 2.5 sedan, AWD 2.5 sedan, 2.5 convertible, 2.5 wagon, AWD 2.5 wagon, 3.0 coupe, 3.0 sedan, AWD 3.0 sedan, 3.0 convertible, performance coupe, performance convertible.

Lexus, Jaguar, and Acura don't have very full lines, but Audi's in competition with BMW's entire line except the coupes, and Audi makes up for it with an AWD convertible to compete with the 3.0 and a performance sedan and performance wagon. With a new all-wheel drive sedan, Infiniti now has a competitor for every 330 except the convertible, and between the S60, C70, V70, and new S40, and S50, Volvo competes with BMW's entire 3-series line except coupes and a performance convertible - though they too make up for it with a performance sedan and a performance wagon. Mercedes, meanwhile, practically mirrors BMW's 3-series line.

My point is that, unlike how it used to be in the early 1990s and even in the late 1990s (before Lexus, Jaguar, Acura, and Volvo were in the segment and before the A4 got a more full product line) there's lots of competitors to BMW, and lots of people are choosing competitors over the BMW.