lift-off vs left foot brake

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nomis3613

nomis3613

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Hi, after years of driving with analogue sticks, I've just started using L2 and R2 for brake and accelerate. This opens up the door to left foot braking, but I'm not sure how to use it properly:
1) in what situations should I hold the throttle flat and left foot brake to wipe off a few km/h (as opposed to just lifting the throttle)?
2) when braking, should I make sure the throttle is released before braking, or should I start by braking then quickly release the throttle?

(I'm not worried about tyre wear. Or mechanical sympathy for my virtual cars...)

Thanks.
 
I don't get on with the L2/R2 setup so I've stuck with the sticks, but I remember than when I used to use a NEGCON on the PS1 its analogue face buttons meant I did a lot of "left foot braking". Very useful with to trim the cornering line if you set brake bias towards to back end, especially with FWD cars.
 
the way I know it is to build up the revs, so as you enter the corner you have low acceleration with your brakes, build up to te apex. So when you release your brake youre not waiting to pick up speed.
 
It's not going to be to your advantage to brake while flooring (or finger-pressing) the throttle, you're just making the brakes less effective.

When you want to keep a bit of throttle (a bit, not very much) is when you are driving a car that is prone to lift off oversteer, as keeping some power going to the wheels helps to keep it in check. It's also useful to drag the brakes on dirt/snow to give you a bit more control, but I would avoid it on tarmac.

Also, I know you say you aren't worried about tire wear or damage, but it does you no good to build bad habits. It will just make it harder to adjust if you decide to play using tire wear and damage, or if/when a more robust damage system is introduced.
 
The only time I know of pressing (tapping) the brakes and gas at the same time gives you an advantage is rally races usually on dirt. This will shift just enough weight toward to front to cause some over-steering while keeping the car's rpm up.
 
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To brake or accelerate efficiently you should have only one foot down at a time, just convert this to your fingers.
 
In real life the advantage is that you can make the shift to deceleration and back to acceleration softer. But you are not supposed to use the brakes and accelerator simultaneously.

Only situation in real life where you might want to apply brakes lightly while accelerating is if you need to build up brake temperatures before a corner at the end of a long straight. Not relevant in GT5 though...
 
I've found in rare situations that the car seems to stabilise if braking and accelerating at the same time. For example the Ferrari 512 on IC-10 into turn 1, very prone to spinning under braking as it's such a twitchy car under braking and the slight right hand kink in the braking zone on the approach to the turn really unsettles it when braking hard, but for some reason when I've used both throttle and brake in the braking zone the car seems more stable. It's limited to only that corner in my opinion, but I've noticed it in the odd corner with other cars too, although it's quite rare, and it could just be in my mind I guess. I don't normally do it, but occasionally I'll experiment with it if I'm really struggling with something.

The other random thing I've noticed is changing gears right at the turn in point of the corner seems to stabilise the car somewhat, again, I'm not sure if thats actually in my mind or if there is something to it, but with certain cars in certain corners I'll occassionally delay the gear change down under braking till the turn in point to stabilise the car on the entry.
 
schuey87
The other random thing I've noticed is changing gears right at the turn in point of the corner seems to stabilise the car somewhat, again, I'm not sure if thats actually in my mind or if there is something to it, but with certain cars in certain corners I'll occassionally delay the gear change down under braking till the turn in point to stabilise the car on the entry.
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I've found that if I'm running a bit wide, shifting down brings the speed down a bit tightening the turning circle. I think that's what you're referring to.
 
"Left foot braking" doesn't really cover the full range of usefulness you can get by overlapping the controls. Most have been touched on already, and I personally mainly use it to offset the lift-off oversteer common in rear-wheel drive cars, or to pull the effective brake bias forwards a touch to prevent oversteer under braking (alone) in a rear-wheel drive car. Most of the time, "left foot braking" is meant to cover a combination of these two effects. Another thing is that applying the throttle puts the differential in its "acceleration mode", instead of deceleration, which can be beneficial depending on the diff (limited slip) and its setup. In a front-wheel drive car, "left-foot braking" can induce oversteer into a corner, great for certain nose-heavy cars, or for scrubbing speed off into long sweepers. Four-wheel drive cars are a hybrid depending on the differentials.

Keeping the throttle floored and just tapping the brake is a good way to get a bit of extra grip onto the front wheels without compromising control or speed too much. Useful for fast kinks or sweepers. As others have said, overlapped brake and throttle really comes into its own on slippery surfaces. Go out on an ice circuit (in the game) in a low-ish powered car of a given drivetrain layout and see what effects overlapping has for yourself. Then you can think of ways these behaviours can be useful in the general case. GT5's ABS may mask some of the effects, though.

This is a great video showing, in the second half, left-foot-braking in a mini on a loose surface. Obviously in this case oversteer is desired for most corners.
 
If you watch the in car telemetry from a LOT of GT5 AI laps, you'll see braking and throttle inputs at the same time. As has been said, it helps stabilize RWD cars a lot, and helps prevent oversteer. It needs a delicate touch, nothing like the floored accelerator and THEN brake approach by the OP, but it is effective.

One of the challenges that benefit enormously from this technique is the infamous Top Gear Lotus challenge, almost impossible to complete without aids unless you employ this trail-braking technique.
 
Left foot braking can also be used to minimize understeer caused by wheelspin in FWD vehicles. Also, it is useful to minimize turbo lag in vehicles where it is a concern when only a minor reduction in speed is required.* This of course causes excessive brake wear (since you are actively fighting the braking mechanisms), but brake heat/fade/wear isn't modeled in the game so it's not much of a concern.

An interesting point of note is that many vehicles are now coming with electronic controls to inhibit (if not outright prevent) throttle application when the brakes are depressed, in the aftermath of that whole "unintended acceleration" fiasco that Toyota went through, which prevents left foot braking all together.

*This doesn't apply to the game so much as it does in the real world, since very few vehicles demonstrate any sort of turbo lag whatsoever.
 
Thanks everyone! I've got plenty of suggestions to try out. Think I'll start with MR cars, since a lot of people are saying that's where it's most useful.

I've just noticed that almost everyone near the top of the GT Academy uses left foot braking, from what most people here are saying it's not just the benefit of less "dead time" between pedals (eg time for the foot to move from one pedal to another, which is not relevant when using the right analogue stick for throttle and brakes).
 
I usually overlap my throttle and brake applications a bit. I almost never brake when flat on the throttle. I think it's better to just lift a little bit. In some corners it is advantageous to have "dead time" between the throttle and brakes. On the Suzuka esses, for example, I can go through them faster if I simply lift off and let the engine slow me down.
 
nomis3613
Hi, after years of driving with analogue sticks, I've just started using L2 and R2 for brake and accelerate. This opens up the door to left foot braking, but I'm not sure how to use it properly:
1) in what situations should I hold the throttle flat and left foot brake to wipe off a few km/h (as opposed to just lifting the throttle)?
2) when braking, should I make sure the throttle is released before braking, or should I start by braking then quickly release the throttle?

(I'm not worried about tyre wear. Or mechanical sympathy for my virtual cars...)

Thanks.
Click to expand...

1) imho in fast corners that can't be flat out, with soft suspensions: a lift off should unbalance the car.
2) start pushing brakes as hard as you can, and release throttle as faster as you can at the same time, but it is humanly impossible.
 
I pretty much always race with my right foot only so any sort of left foot braking is foreign to me. I have lots of trouble with the Ferarri 512BB though and adjusting the brake balance doesn't seem to cure it's tendency to oversteer and spin in circles when I brake while turning. I think I'll try a little left-foot-braking on my trouble corners (mulsane on circuit de la sarthe, turn 1 on rome reverse, etc).
 
You should only be use one pedal (or in this case, trigger) at a time. Just make sure you are smooth in the transition from no brake to brake, especially with MR cars. Same goes for no throttle to throttle.

Rally drivers often dab the brakes to tip the car into a corner (usually on gravel) whilst keeping the foot on the accelerator to keep the front wheels driving, but it's less common in racing. All you do is increase fuel consumption and reduce braking efficiency.

The idea of left foot braking is just to reduce the amount of time it takes to get from one pedal to the other. I've done a bit of open wheel driving where you have no choice but to left foot brake and it is very fun once you get the hang of it. It just gives you so much control over the car and you can be very precise
 
CarreraGT
You should only be use one pedal (or in this case, trigger) at a time. Just make sure you are smooth in the transition from no brake to brake, especially with MR cars. Same goes for no throttle to throttle.

Rally drivers often dab the brakes to tip the car into a corner (usually on gravel) whilst keeping the foot on the accelerator to keep the front wheels driving, but it's less common in racing. All you do is increase fuel consumption and reduce braking efficiency.

The idea of left foot braking is just to reduce the amount of time it takes to get from one pedal to the other. I've done a bit of open wheel driving where you have no choice but to left foot brake and it is very fun once you get the hang of it. It just gives you so much control over the car and you can be very precise
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What about the effect of keeping the throttle on whilst braking, to keep the diff in "acceleration" mode? That can really stabilise a rear-wheel-drive car under braking, depending on the diff and brake bias.
 
In that case you might keep a bit of residual throttle but not many drivers do it. You're better off just trying to get your braking done in a straight line. And yeah as you say, stability can be taken care of by diff and brake setup
 
I use both feet and often at the same time. The FGT @ Suzuka for example. When going through the esses I find a constant speed and use the brake at the apex to turn the car. Just a slight squeeze of about 10% brake will really bring the front end around. I also use it to stabilize on long high speed areas that aren't perfectly straight, like many parts of the ring. You drop way too much speed by getting out of the throttle. I want to transfer weight to my steering tires and drop 5-10 mph at most, not a 30mph drop with less weight transfer. It takes practice and touch but it's worth learning.

I guarantee people that say this technique has no merit are slower than me. :)
 
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Sounds like a challenge haha. You're probably right though, driving an F1 car requires a totally different driving approach. Unfortunately, I can't afford the FGT and haven't driven an F1 car in real life (what are the odds).

If anyone wants to gift it to me I would be more than happy to give it a try :)
 
CarreraGT
Sounds like a challenge haha. You're probably right though, driving an F1 car requires a totally different driving approach. Unfortunately, I can't afford the FGT and haven't driven an F1 car in real life (what are the odds).

If anyone wants to gift it to me I would be more than happy to give it a try :)
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The FGT is great fun but does require a different approach. Lots of early breaking and driving through the corner that takes getting used to. It's the really the only car I use both feet at the same time a lot except for the long straights on the ring, then I do it for most every car. Give it a try when driving something fast on the ring. The left kink @ the bridge on the long straight right before the start/finish line is a common spot. Keep the gas to the floor and just squeeze the brake gently to keep it under control.

Other times it comes in handy is a quick tap before cresting a hill before a turn, also happens often on the ring. It keeps the front end down and helps prevent understeer caused by the car being light.
 

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