Little theory about brake turning mechanics derived from FGT.

[alilsneaky]

I was practicing with the FGT for several hours with brake bias set to 8/8 (don't comment on you shoulda woulda coulda, thats not the point here), and was very annoyed by the car's behavior in corners and when sliding.

As soon as any tyre would lose grip (e.g go red from taking a long corner at high speed, or hit a curb, or hit the grass ) and I was turning by even 1 degree, even at 25 km/h, the car would go in some kind of ridonculous (that's ridiculous to the power of 2)and violent spin.
This happens regardless of me applying the throttle (oversteer/weight shift) , braking (weight shift/brake turning) or not (so car being in neutral weight, only influenced by it's momentum ).
And felt really, REALLY off.

*the tyre overheating system is bonkers anyhow, try slamming into another car's back with TC to 2 (or 10 I assume, I'm just posting the setting I was using) and don't let go of the throttle immediately.
Both rear tyres will go dark red immediately despite them never skidding and they remain red for several seconds, that's some magical tyres right there, being able to overheat within 0.1seconds without even having to spin or produce any smoke(friction).*

After getting annoyed with the car's overzealous brake turning, I remembered reading about using brake bias to add or reduce it.
Set the bias to 8 front 4 rear, and lo and behold , what side effect appears?

Suddenly the car is stable when losing traction on a single (or more) tyres (so also when not using the throttle or brakes) and handles like one would expect.

I already felt that the brake cornering was WAY too overdone on one particular corner of the madrid course, always doing it, wether I was going for it or not, with any car. (which didn't hit home until that corner appeared in a licence test to demonstrate the mechanic).

The only conclusion I can take out of this, is that theres some kind of unified system to determine the car's behavior during sliding, way more basic than you'd assume it to be.
I probably just lost all the fanboys with that last sentence of 100 percent pure unadultered blasphemy (fanboys =/= fans).

Try it yourself if you don't believe me. Grand valley is a good track to test it with many slow corners, curbs to hit and long/narrowing corners.

 

[Buubar]

I don't really get what your trying to get at apart from the fact that you set your brake bias way too high and at even numbers. But then did what you are supposed to do in the first place and put more brake pressure to the front...?

What has this got to do with the game? The only problem seems to be your tuning "skills"

 

[magburner]

I haven't got an FGT, but I have noticed a similar ridiculous effect.

I have raced the ring a lot, and I occasionally (more than occasionally), get a single tire on the grass, and the car spins out wildly. I can understand why this might happen with FR and MR cars, but I have had the exact same thing happen with FF cars too. Something doesn't ring true there... 👍

 

[amar212]

I don't really get what your trying to get at apart from the fact that you set your brake bias way too high and at even numbers. Then realize what you are supposed to do in the first place and put more brake pressure to the front...?

Exactly

 

[alilsneaky]

And for that kind of OCD (no offense) , I put in the part between brackets about ignoring the usefullness of the brake bias settings.
Them being so extreme just made the car behavior when brake bias settings shouldn't be of influence all the more glaringly obvious.

 

[sideshowfrost]

I don't really get what your trying to get at apart from the fact that you set your brake bias way too high and at even numbers. But then did what you are supposed to do in the first place and put more brake pressure to the front...?

What has this got to do with the game? The only problem seems to be your tuning "skills"

What he's saying is that instead of a consistent physics engine that takes into account the values of front and rear brake strength the game actually does something like:


if brake balance set well then
....behave like a drivable car
else
....flip the **** out
endif


with 'set well' being some nebulous value only the game knows.

He's also saying there's a bug where tires gain temperature without moving.

The first point would be subject to the person drivings point of view, so would be harder to test objectively. The second point is easy to test (just do what he says he did). I've not tried either.

 

[profi]

I also felt there was something wrong with the FGT.

I'll try your suggestion (brake-bias) and hope it helps...

At the moment I have no chance to win any of the GT championship races with my sixasis.

 

[Lw_]

The tire model from GT5 was for me the biggest dispappointment in this game. I mean, you can't even say it is bad... it is just a complete joke.

This tyre model would make sense in mario kart but not in a so called simulation. you can have the best physics engine in the world if your tyre model is rubbish the whole game will be too.

I understand the necessity for GT5 to reach a greater number of player rather than just the hardcore simmers but this is going too far.
I would like pd to show me a tyre, even a material on this earth that would behave like the tyres in GT5.

Kaz takes pride in saying that you can learn driving with his game... I'm not so sure.

As a matter of fact the GT academy winner crashed last year when he was given the opportunity to drive a real GTR. hmm interesting.

On the other and you have gregor huttu, the winner of the iracing championship. He was given to drive a formula mazda as a reward. Much harder to drive and much faster than a GTR. Did he crash... no.
why ? because he 'learned' to drive on a proper simulator with a proper tyre model, not an arcade game with some eye candy and a 'driving simulation' disclaimer under the logo of the game.

 

[Blayney]

The tire model from GT5 was for me the biggest dispappointment in this game. I mean, you can't even say it is bad... it is just a complete joke.

This tyre model would make sense in mario kart but not in a so called simulation. you can have the best physics engine in the world if your tyre model is rubbish the whole game will be too.

I understand the necessity for GT5 to reach a greater number of player rather than just the hardcore simmers but this is going too far.
I would like pd to show me a tyre, even a material on this earth that would behave like the tyres in GT5.

Kaz takes pride in saying that you can learn driving with his game... I'm not so sure.

As a matter of fact the GT academy winner crashed last year when he was given the opportunity to drive a real GTR. hmm interesting.

On the other and you have gregor huttu, the winner of the iracing championship. He was given to drive a formula mazda as a reward. Much harder to drive and much faster than a GTR. Did he crash... no.
why ? because he 'learned' to drive on a proper simulator with a proper tyre model, not an arcade game with some eye candy and a 'driving simulation' disclaimer under the logo of the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_GT4_European_Cup_season

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_GT4_European_Cup_season

Are you talking about Ordonez. He won GT Academy, and competes in the Euro GT4 championship. You can't argue with his results.

 

[Stonemonkey]

*the tyre overheating system is bonkers anyhow, try slamming into another car's back with TC to 2 (or 10 I assume, I'm just posting the setting I was using) and don't let go of the throttle immediately.
Both rear tyres will go dark red immediately despite them never skidding and they remain red for several seconds, that's some magical tyres right there, being able to overheat within 0.1seconds without even having to spin or produce any smoke(friction).*

I could be wrong but I'd guess that if you slam into the back of someone then the speed of your car will reduce almost instantly but the momentum of the engine/drivetrain/wheels rotating will keep the powered wheels spinning for a little longer until they match the cars new speed, more if you keep the throttle open.

 

[slackboy72]

Do you have ASM on? That uses the brakes individually to correct the car's attitude (i.e. difference between direction of steering wheels and vector).

I suspect that what you are getting with these silly bias settings is a car that locks up the rear wheels when the ASM kicks in and will pivot around the front wheel thus exacerbating any error. So if you were oversteering on a left hand bend the ASM would lightly brake the right brakes. Your right rear locks up and the car will spin around the right front.

 

[LordSandwich]

The tire model from GT5 was for me the biggest dispappointment in this game. I mean, you can't even say it is bad... it is just a complete joke.

This tyre model would make sense in mario kart but not in a so called simulation. you can have the best physics engine in the world if your tyre model is rubbish the whole game will be too.

I understand the necessity for GT5 to reach a greater number of player rather than just the hardcore simmers but this is going too far.
I would like pd to show me a tyre, even a material on this earth that would behave like the tyres in GT5.

Kaz takes pride in saying that you can learn driving with his game... I'm not so sure.

As a matter of fact the GT academy winner crashed last year when he was given the opportunity to drive a real GTR. hmm interesting.

On the other and you have gregor huttu, the winner of the iracing championship. He was given to drive a formula mazda as a reward. Much harder to drive and much faster than a GTR. Did he crash... no.
why ? because he 'learned' to drive on a proper simulator with a proper tyre model, not an arcade game with some eye candy and a 'driving simulation' disclaimer under the logo of the game.

The 2009 GT academy winner finished 2nd in the 2009 GT4 Euro cup. He and the 2010 GT academy winner tied for 4th in the 2010 season.

 

[CSLACR]

Set the bias to 8 front 4 rear, and lo and behold , what side effect appears?

Suddenly the car is stable when losing traction on a single (or more) tyres (so also when not using the throttle or brakes) and handles like one would expect.

Not saying for sure I agree with him, I don't know yet, haven't tried it, but for the rubbish replies, see the part in bold, italic, and underlined.
"when not applying brakes"
"when not applying brakes.

Did anyone still miss the point?

He's saying by changing the brake bias, the cars handles better whether you're using the brakes ***or not***

 

[slackboy72]

Not saying for sure I agree with him, I don't know yet, haven't tried it, but for the rubbish replies, see the part in bold, italic, and underlined.
"when not applying brakes"
"when not applying brakes.

Did anyone still miss the point?

He's saying by changing the brake bias, the cars handles better whether you're using the brakes ***or not***

Well this is my point.
ASM applies the brakes automatically if you're attitude is out of kilter.
Unfortunately ASM relies on properly set-up brakes. With a crappy brake balance using ASM is asking for trouble.

 

[RC45]

Well this is my point.
ASM applies the brakes automatically if you're attitude is out of kilter.
Unfortunately ASM relies on properly set-up brakes. With a crappy brake balance using ASM is asking for trouble.

Many folks dont seem to understand that ASM is not some magic pixie dust, but rather just very well timed applicaiotn of the brakes - when the driver is NOT using the brakes.

 

[Xouved]

ASM and Skid Recovery control are good aids to have on. I use them when using the FGT because I normally use a DS3 and it's just to twitchy without it. Plus I can't do the best throttle control with the DS3.

I would recommend them, who cares if they're aids, they help you have more fun in a car like this. (From my experience at least).

 

[Luminis]

Well this is my point.
ASM applies the brakes automatically if you're attitude is out of kilter.
Unfortunately ASM relies on properly set-up brakes. With a crappy brake balance using ASM is asking for trouble.

ASM should apply brake pressure depending on the state of the car, individually per wheel and, therefore, shouldn't be influenced by the brake bias setting.
I mean, think about it. The system calculates how many brake pressure to apply to which wheel. If the brake bias had any influence on it, it wouldn't keep the car stable, it would probably turn it into a death trap.

While the ASM needs ABS to work, it shouldn't be influenced by the brake pressure settings. I, at least, have never heard of brake bias affecting any system that would be akin to the ASM in GT5.

The brake bias seems to have some influence on the cars behaviour at all times, even without any assists (exept for the obligatory ABS =1) and no input on either throttle or brakes. It's not that obvious on most cars, but quite easy to spot on the FGT indeed. If you're losing grip, even slightly, it will affect how drastic the reaction will be.

While it seems strange, it doesn't bother me that much, really. I'm not running cars with a strange brake bias, so I'm not really affected

 

[alilsneaky]

Do you have ASM on? That uses the brakes individually to correct the car's attitude (i.e. difference between direction of steering wheels and vector).

I suspect that what you are getting with these silly bias settings is a car that locks up the rear wheels when the ASM kicks in and will pivot around the front wheel thus exacerbating any error. So if you were oversteering on a left hand bend the ASM would lightly brake the right brakes. Your right rear locks up and the car will spin around the right front.

No ASM no nothing, just 1 ABS and in the case of the FGT also 2 TC (can't change the gears and it has too much wheelspin at high revs in low gears else)

It's comforting that atleast one person (CSLACR) is able to understand what I was saying.
And again, stop derailing this thread with an ASM discussion, ASM WAS OFF.

@Luminis: I don't normally run a weird brake bias either (the fgt one was an experiment as it didn't handle to my liking with the standard 5/5 either, best way to see how a cars behavior is changed by settings is by putting them on an extreme value) , but it does mean having to run a very conservative/careful set up on super fast cars like the fgt.

Also it kinda ruined the magic behind the physics system for me.
Again, generally the cars are fun to drive, but the fgt is not imo because of the weird over exagerated tyre overheating behavior (more so than the brake balance physics cop out) making the car unpredictable to the point where if driven on the edge, experience will often do me no good as it can go into it's no grip state in the blink of an eye (with no feedback or warning) at any time.
to clarify before someone says 'but f1 cars can go out of balance in the blink of an eye': I'm talking about being in a long fast corner, one tyre losing traction for 0.1sec, you correcting it , but the game going JK goodbye grip on all 4 and you lose the car because suddenly that short skid put the tyres in overheat mode and it's going too fast for the corner. (extreme case, but it does happen too often if you don't drive carefully).

I'm all for a long/steep learning curve and a challenge, but if a game thinks it has to overexagerate certain behavior just to drive the point home then it can suck the fun out of things at times.

Meanwhile the SLS in the events on nurburg totally disregards the laws of physics and momentum and handles like a sega arcade racer for example. (go over a bump in a corner, send the cars behind off the ground and starting to want to overtake the rest of the car, land gogo-gadget grip no problem it instantly loses that crazy rotating momentum, do the same with the FGT with above bias set up and the car goes spinning like a helicopter blade)

 

[tribolik]

I think youre the one thats not understanding it very well try it on a practice mode without assists and see if you still feel the same way. The assists kind of ruin the fisics of the game. sometimes one assist turns another one on without we knowing it..

 

[Luminis]

I think youre the one thats not understanding it very well try it on a practice mode without assists and see if you still feel the same way. The assists kind of ruin the fisics of the game. sometimes one assist turns another one on without we knowing it..

Seems like you're making that call based on the fact that some assists force others off. Namely, turning your ABS off will force ASM off as well. I haven't noticed one assists turning a different one on.

Forcing ASM off by turning ABS off is useful in the special events (NASCAR), where you can't turn ABS off otherwise. That's it.

 

[tribolik]

maybe thats what I noticed... but I kind of stopped using assists from that point on

I cant say I notice what you report on the FGT - what I notice is that it is the only car with ABS off that is quite hard to lock the breaks no matter I hard I break - so hard that I havent even changed the default brake balance

 

[Neenor]

The tire model from GT5 was for me the biggest dispappointment in this game. I mean, you can't even say it is bad... it is just a complete joke.

This tyre model would make sense in mario kart but not in a so called simulation. you can have the best physics engine in the world if your tyre model is rubbish the whole game will be too.

I understand the necessity for GT5 to reach a greater number of player rather than just the hardcore simmers but this is going too far.
I would like pd to show me a tyre, even a material on this earth that would behave like the tyres in GT5.

Kaz takes pride in saying that you can learn driving with his game... I'm not so sure.

As a matter of fact the GT academy winner crashed last year when he was given the opportunity to drive a real GTR. hmm interesting.

On the other and you have gregor huttu, the winner of the iracing championship. He was given to drive a formula mazda as a reward. Much harder to drive and much faster than a GTR. Did he crash... no.
why ? because he 'learned' to drive on a proper simulator with a proper tyre model, not an arcade game with some eye candy and a 'driving simulation' disclaimer under the logo of the game.

Wow!

1. Come out from under the stone you have been residing.
2. Learn the facts about GT Academy


I think the tyre model is excellent, I have iRaced for a while now and I think GT5 feels but much much better. That and the fact you don't have to re-mortgage your home to race.