Load Cell vs Spring mod

[Ktrain89]

Sorry if this has been covered, but I searched the forum and didn't find any threads that discuss this explicitly.

I am new to sim racing, and don't play that "often" compared to most I assume. I do, however, enjoy this realistic driving experience as I play Gran Turismo 6. I have read up on brake mods for Logitech pedals, and there seems to be no consensus on an aftermarket spring vs load cell.

I was wondering if those who have used both can chime in and share your thoughts and opinions on them.

 

[Azure Flare]

A load cell will better replicate a real brake pedal as it measures force applied to the pedal, rather than a potentiometer, which will measure distance traveled.

Since you have decided on a Fanatec CSR, I would recommend at least the Fanatec CSR elite pedals it they have a load cell in them. If you can afford the extra $100, go for the Clubsport V2 pedals.

I'm a recent convert from the T500RS, and I think the Fanatec pedals blow them away.

 

[LeMansAid]

Seems @Ktrain89 is likely getting a deal that includes v1 Clubsports. For the record it's the CSR Elite pedals that have the load cell. The standard CSR pedals no not.

 

[Ktrain89]

Thanks guys...but please don't consider my Fanatec setup to be finalized until it is in my hands! With my luck, something may happen between now and Friday (when I am supposed to meet the seller to pick it up) and I will lose out on it!

Since that possibility exists, I am still interested in the differences between these aftermarket springs and load cell options. It seems that some say the load cell isn't worth the price difference, while others swear it is a must-do upgrade.

 

[bumer]

It seems that some say the load cell isn't worth the price difference, while others swear it is a must-do upgrade.

It is something you have to feel for yourself. Having used load-cell pedals for 5 or more years now, I would never go back. If I have the money, I would always buy clubsport pedals (preferably v2 now) or whatever is above it.
As for other options, I wouldn't pay 150 to get just a loadcell for thrustmaster pedals, or 200 (or whatever the perfect pedal costs) for g25/27 pedals, because you would then have a good brake pedal, put clutch and accelerator would still be quite crappy. I would better still pay a bit more and get all-around better pedals. But as always, there are as many opinions as there are persons. So you still need to make a decision yourself.
You said that you are after a more realistic experience and a load-cell is closer to real feel than regular potentiometer-based pedals.

 

[CC570]

Apelectrix load cell for the G25/27 pedals.👍👍👍

 

[oqvist]

As long as brake pedals have travel there is no way you can say that using a loadcell to register your pedal efforts give you a more realistic brake pedal. It´s the rubbers and springs that create the feel not what is used to measure it.

For a loadcell to be an absolute superior you need no travel. Then a potentiometre for example would not work properly.

T500RS with bushings have a more realistic brake feel then the Clubsports IMO. It certainly give more progressive resistance so I can rely more on my muscle memory with it and have to work harder to keep the tires locked . But I can´t say I am faster with one or the other they both do the job good.

 

[bumer]

For a loadcell to be an absolute superior you need no travel. Then a potentiometre for example would not work properly

That is where clubsport brake pedal design and sensitivity comes in. You can adjust it so that most of the braking is done by pedal travel or most of the braking is done by force where there's almost no travel at all (mainly load cell deflection) and you can adjust it on the go.

 

[lemansfanatic]

load cell vs spring mod vs hydraulic mod. Heres one for the G27 that adds an external reservoir that measures pedal pressure like a load cell, but this goes one step further by adding realistic hydraulic pressure like a real car:
http://www.totalspanishsimulator.com/wp/en/reviews/mod-brake-g25g27-insidesimracing/

 

[ROB 256R]

A potentiometer does measure distance travelled but if you have a setup which uses a progressive rate spring or something like the excellent basherboards brake mod for T500 you can get the impression of a pressure based system. Ok, so it still generates the braking values from a potentiometer but the way the pedal becomes stiffer the further into it you get, really doesn't make you feel like it's based on distance travelled.

Plus my T500 brake with basherboards mod travels the same max distance every time i calibrate it because there is a physical end point to the pedal's travel. I push it to this point every time and so my brake calibrates the same every time.

When you calibrate a load cell pedal there is a variance in what max pedal force is depending on whether you pressed the pedal slightly harder or less hard that particular time when calibrating. To me this is a major flaw with a load cell pedal. It means on any given day it's highly unlikely you will have calibrated it the exact same way as on any other day.

 

[bumer]

When you calibrate a load cell pedal there is a variance in what max pedal force is depending on whether you pressed the pedal slightly harder or less hard that particular time when calibrating. To me this is a major flaw with a load cell pedal. It means on any given day it's highly unlikely you will have calibrated it the exact same way as on any other day.

It seems to me like many of you are robots or just hypersensitive. It kind of looks like you know that you need to brake to this corner with this car applying precisely 55.127 kgf and you do that every single time, but this time calibration is a bit off and computer sees you applying 56 kgf and your wheels lock up and your whole racing season is ruined. Don't know about pedal calibration, but if you tell me to push my leg with 40kgf, I'm pretty sure I don't know exactly how strong I need to push.

Everybody of course is different. Some are a lot quicker than me while using a keyboard and a mouse for racing and this way brakes are either on or off but still know how to brake. Human gets used to everything.

 

[oqvist]

A potentiometer does measure distance travelled but if you have a setup which uses a progressive rate spring or something like the excellent basherboards brake mod for T500 you can get the impression of a pressure based system. Ok, so it still generates the braking values from a potentiometer but the way the pedal becomes stiffer the further into it you get, really doesn't make you feel like it's based on distance travelled.

Plus my T500 brake with basherboards mod travels the same max distance every time i calibrate it because there is a physical end point to the pedal's travel. I push it to this point every time and so my brake calibrates the same every time.

When you calibrate a load cell pedal there is a variance in what max pedal force is depending on whether you pressed the pedal slightly harder or less hard that particular time when calibrating. To me this is a major flaw with a load cell pedal. It means on any given day it's highly unlikely you will have calibrated it the exact same way as on any other day.

On PC you can calibrate pedals once and be done with it so it doesn´t change for every new boot up. Maybe this is not possible on console? If so yes would be a drawback you want the pedals to be persistent so you really can learn them. I have no idea how precise you can be though would been killer to have a possibility to see on a display how much brake pressure I apply. As in not the pedal input in game but the actual pressure I put on the load cell.

Personally I have a bit of a wooden legs which explains why I am so slow

 

[mrbasher]

I think what bumer means here:

It seems to me like many of you are robots or just hypersensitive. It kind of looks like you know that you need to brake to this corner with this car applying precisely 55.127 kgf and you do that every single time, but this time calibration is a bit off and computer sees you applying 56 kgf and your wheels lock up and your whole racing season is ruined. Don't know about pedal calibration, but if you tell me to push my leg with 40kgf, I'm pretty sure I don't know exactly how strong I need to push.

Is that a person should be able to sense when lockup is starting to occur and maybe not remember the exact pressure required. Unfortunately it came across a bit abrasive... Though I do agree with it.

However, I also agree with Rob on the benefit of consistent calibration. If the pressure required to achieve 100% braking varies from day to day, it's going to be that much more difficult to develop the necessary memory. Fanatec's load cell offerings actually don't require calibration. In fact, the knob for sensitivity seems to be there partly to overcome the necessity of calibration on the brake. The knob can actually be adjusted such that you cannot reach 100% no matter how hard you press. (on some sets I have tested)

All that said, I have gone back and forth on "pressure sensitive" (load cell/hydraulic) vs potentiometer for the last few years. I've tested many of the offerings out there, some the public has never seen or yet to be released. Some of my own creation. I have come to realize a few things:

First, both potentiometer and "pressure sensitive" options out there are actually pressure sensitive. Don't believe me? How do you think a spring scale works? It's measuring pressure sensitivity no? But it's also measuring distance, isn't it... Just like a spring scale, a pot brake is measuring pressure. However, they are notoriously light when compared to a load cell brake. This is part of what has caused confusion since the beginning. That said...

The pot brake has one fatal flaw in its typically used configuration. The pot directly coupled to the pedal via linkage or gearing. This has the affect of then coupling pressure with pedal position and therefor feel vs. output is coupled.

A pressure based brake has the advantage of decoupling this relationship between distance traveled and pressure applied. This allows the feel of the brake and travel to be adjusted independent of output.

I'll try to give an example...

With a pot brake, 1 inch of travel will always equal a given percentage of output. You can change how much pressure that takes and that is all. You can use a progressive rubber or spring, but it still requires 1 inch of travel to reach that percentage. (using the conventional design)

With a load cell, 1 inch of travel might equal 50% output with a given material or spring between the pedal and load cell. If if a stiffer material or spring is used between the two, 1 inch might now equal 100% output. Odd shapes can be used here to create difference "curves" etc.

This effect becomes especially apparently at the extents of pedal travel and is most noticeable in the 0 to 25% range as you are coming off the brake in situations such as trail braking. (Edit: but ONLY if a non-linear material or spring is used between pedal and pressure sensor)

That said, a simple design like that employed by Fanatec doesn't really create some of the dynamic feel characteristics that many higher end pedal designs do. This is because it's simply compressing a piece of foam material, the relationship here being relatively linear. Distance required for specific output is directly coupled to the sensitivity setting and pressure required. Replacing that material with something else might be interesting... *wink* Anyhow, this is why many people using my T500RS brake mod state the two aren't much different in the end.

I hope that helps. It probably didn't... lol

 

[Blkout]

Coming from someone that has a two sets of pedals that I use regularly, the T500RS pedals with Basher brake mod, and Fanatac CSR Elite with load cell, my braking preference is the T500 pedals with Basher brake mod, it just gives a better feel to me than the Fanatec load cell and in the end will be more reliable since there's no load cell to wear out. That being said, I do prefer the Fanatec Elite CSR gas and clutch pedal to the T500's, but that's mostly due to more travel and more stiffness. Ultimately, I think people are splitting hairs when they talk about the accuracy of a load cell vs a pot brake with a bushing mod. From an electronics standpoint, I really don't think there's much to be gained in accuracy, what everyone is trying to accomplish is pedal feel which is achieved by both a load cell and a bushing mod. The bushing mod if I'm being completely honest is quite brilliant when you consider its design and cost. I think the mentality is that you must have a load cell to get proper braking simply comes from the past when that was the only way to get the pedal pressure desired short of exotic hydraulic designs. When Basher's bushing mod came along, Jon basically did in effect what a load cell was doing but much cheaper and more reliable. Jon should be flattered that Thrustmaster actually started using a bushing mod for the T3PA pedals. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[bumer]

in the end will be more reliable since there's no load cell to wear out.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have changed load cell only once in over 5 years and even that was because I ripped the wire off myself. (People also buy them from ebay paying $10 or so for 4) Industrial load cells like Bodnar use for t500, you won't probably break it in your lifetime. Probably this foam in clubsport pedals wears out before load cell, although I still have the original (though haven't taken it out for years to see how worn it is) and brake is still very good.
I believe there are a lot more problems with potentiometers going bad or gettong dirty than with load cells.

 

[Blkout]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. I have changed load cell only once in over 5 years and even that was because I ripped the wire off myself. (People also buy them from ebay paying $10 or so for 4) Industrial load cells like Bodnar use for t500, you won't probably break it in your lifetime. Probably this foam in clubsport pedals wears out before load cell, although I still have the original (though haven't taken it out for years to see how worn it is) and brake is still very good.
I believe there are a lot more problems with potentiometers going bad or gettong dirty than with load cells.

I'm sure of the fact that I've seen plenty of people talking about them dying and having to replace them. I think its wonderful that some people get 3+ years out of them but you will never destroy Basher's bushing mod, so in this case never having to replace the bushing as opposed to sometimes having to replace the load cell, the bushing wins for reliability every time.

 

[bumer]

I'm sure of the fact that I've seen plenty of people talking about them dying and having to replace them. I think its wonderful that some people get 3+ years out of them but you will never destroy Basher's bushing mod, so in this case never having to replace the bushing as opposed to sometimes having to replace the load cell, the bushing wins for reliability every time.

Of course they are dying because they are rated to some value. I don't know whether it is 25kg or 50kg, but everything breaks if excessive force is constantly used (fatigue is probably the reason). It is useless to compare only bushing with load cell, because bushing isn't a sensor (potentiometer is) and load cell is too. So you basically want to say that load cell is a weakest link for pedals that use load cell and pedals that have potentiometers are totally reliable.

 

[RacingManiac]

I had the APElectrix setup on my G25 before and my biggest problem with using it on PS3 was the inconsistent calibration day to day. It also seems(I am not sure if it is the case) that if at any point after you first calibrate it that you exceed the original max the max is then moved to the new point. So it was kinda hard on the consistency. When I move to T500RS with the basher mod, the feel is stiff enough that its comparable to loadcell, but since its still a pot, a max is max and it just easier to be consistent with it. I don't know if on PS3 you can get a more consistent loadcell based setup. I know on PC its possible.

 

[Blkout]

Of course they are dying because they are rated to some value. I don't know whether it is 25kg or 50kg, but everything breaks if excessive force is constantly used (fatigue is probably the reason). It is useless to compare only bushing with load cell, because bushing isn't a sensor (potentiometer is) and load cell is too. So you basically want to say that load cell is a weakest link for pedals that use load cell and pedals that have potentiometers are totally reliable.

The pots in the T500 pedals are much more reliable than the load cells in the Fanatec pedals. If you don't know that, you haven't been around sim racing hardware long enough or maybe you're just not willing to admit it to justify your point. I see where you're trying to go with your argument but you're really throwing pretty well accepted statistics out of it to get there.

 

[bumer]

The pots in the T500 pedals are much more reliable than the load cells in the Fanatec pedals. If you don't know that, you haven't been around sim racing hardware long enough, or maybe you're just not willing to admit it to justify your point.

Well, I've never owned or thought about buying Thrustmaster stuff, so no point in constantly reading about it. Using only Fanatec and Logitech stuff and read a lot about having problems with Logitech pedals pot.

 

[Blkout]

Well, I've never owned or thought about buying Thrustmaster stuff, so no point in constantly reading about it. Using only Fanatec and Logitech stuff and read a lot about having problems with Logitech pedals pot.

Fair enough, I'll just say TM's pots haven't been an issue. I certainly won't rule out that all pots are not the same as are all load cells not the same either. I honestly had no idea we were going to get into a debate on load cell vs pots reliability other than the statement I made in regards to Fanatec's load cells vs T500 pots. My original post was about the feel between them but I simply added that in my opinion, the nod to reliability would have to go to the T500 pedals, as long as they aren't the old torsion springs version.

 

[bumer]

Well, forum is for communicating/debating.
Ktrain89 was looking to buy used logitech or fanatec stuff anyway if his other thread is to be believed. Logitech pedals are different, there probably isn't any good bushing mod like T500 has (not sure though). Don't know if there is any stiff enough progressive spring for it to use high enough force to get as good feeling as load cell has.

 

[Blkout]

Well, forum is for communicating/debating.
Ktrain89 was looking to buy used logitech or fanatec stuff anyway if his other thread is to be believed. Logitech pedals are different, there probably isn't any good bushing mod like T500 has (not sure though). Don't know if there is any stiff enough progressive spring for it to use high enough force to get as good feeling as load cell has.

I honestly haven't followed much on Logitech's stuff since I sold my G27 but there seems to be quite a few spring mods but I doubt any of them would give the same pressure as Basher's bushing mod or a load cell as you stated, but there are load cell mods for the G27's and even a hydraulic mod if I remember correctly but that won't be cheap.

 

[Ktrain89]

Thanks for all the info! It really is interesting reading all your guys' thoughts and opinions on this stuff... Hopefully I will finalize my deal that will include ClubSports, but in case it doesn't this thread has given me lots of info to ponder over.

 

[Jet Badger]

We've had this discussion some time ago. Good read for anyone interested as alot of good points regarding sim brakes have been said there

 

[LeMansAid]

We've had this discussion some time ago. Good read for anyone interested as alot of good points regarding sim brakes have been said there

Reading through a bit of that thread I'm reminded of the argument that a sim's physics cannot be properly judged when using any non-wheel input method. That some people think that somehow the sim cares how it receives it's data to process. Steering angle x is the same for the sim from a wheel or a gamepad. It cares not. Now achieving precisely value x on a wheel vs gamepad? Different story in terms of difficulty but not in terms of possibility, and the same sort of deal as with our load cell, pot, or hydraulic scenario. It's the human that needs the help.