Lotus. Future secure?

obsessive rules

obsessive rules

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warmachine277-
Lotus is in deep financial debt so they have shown all manor of cars ranging from the esprit supercar to the ethos city car. However this year just 155 cars have been sold worldwide and lotus have lost money due to a recent change of owners. Dany Bahar, lotus CEO, said in 2010 "even if we only complete 50% of our plan it's better than the current situation." He also said he accepts DRB the new lotus owners could change the plan resulting in delays to the new line up. This will cause problems as the new cars are supposed to turn lotuses future round. Here's hoping the £10 million government grant turns into a secure future for the truly great British brand.
 
I just hope they can pull through. I've always loved the simplicity of Lotus, and I don't want them to die. After being owned by Proton, of all companies, I really hope the new owners can turn things round, even though the only car in the new range I'm looking forward to is the new Esprit. The original plan for it was to have a Toyota-Sourced engine, but now Lotus are developing their own V8. How they have the budget for this, however, is beyond me, as their best effort at Geneva was chopping the roof of the new Exige.
 
I'm still puzzled why Lotus never followed Porsche and produced an SUV to fund their sports cars.

Did they really think they could stay afloat only producing small 2 seater niche sports cars?
 
Adamgp
I'm still puzzled why Lotus never followed Porsche and produced an SUV to fund their sports cars.

Did they really think they could stay afloat only producing small 2 seater niche sports cars?
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I think Lotus's trouble was thinking they could stay afloat only producing small 2 seater niche sports cars but having massive overheads. After all, Morgan is a smaller company than Lotus and survives entirely on niche products (albeit some fairly high-end ones like the Supersports) and it's doing pretty well at the moment.

Though to be fair to Morgan, the head of the company isn't a nutter. Nor did Morgan propose six new expensive cars with no solid plans in place to produce them. Nor did they rope in a load of non-celebrities to endorse the non-products.

Lotus is essentially a collection of brilliant engineers completely undermined by some awful PR and a lunatic at the helm.
 
Morgan has nothing to do with Lotus. I know them, visited their factory, met Charles Morgan and even though Morgan is "special" for many reasons, they are keeping their feet well planted on the ground and their usual low profile way of doing business and selling cars. No "grandeur" illusions, they are what they are and have always been.

I recommend these 2 clips for anyone really interested in understanding what's life like inside the Morgan factory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fFToJm-fpo (Part 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6WmeXTWppk (Part 2)


As for Lotus ... I feel the (probable) pain of Lotus cars owners, Lotus cars enthusiasts and all Lotus (F1 and road cars) fans. What is Lotus now? The way I see it, the "branding" attitude in motorsports dilutes the quality of the name Lotus. Lotus used to be a F1 team that MADE THEIR OWN (usually brilliantly conceived) CARS. Nowadays, it "brands" a Genii car. Kimi's reply, or lack thereof, to Clarkson was funny, but almost painful to watch.

Than you have the Rebellion Toyotas using that iconic black/gold livery too. What? Why? What has Lotus to gain from that? As a brand, Lotus was never associated with LMP cars anyway. It doesn't add nothing now, in fact it dilutes the brand, the color scheme, on their way to becoming worthless, or worse, damaging.

Than you have the Indy near fiasco, both in the engine department and in the still to understand "will he?/won't he?" situation with Alesi at the Indy 500 race.

And the road cars? Well, apparently, nothing is happening. And I don't mean "nothing of what was announced", I do mean "nothing".

I hope I'm wrong but the future doesn't look bright for Lotus.
 
Yeah, Lotus is probably screwed. Announcing 6 cars, 5 of which no one cared about; the lunatic running the company saying Lotus could easily be positioned as a British Ferrari because they were always totally the same thing, really; and making it clear that no one there actually knew what they were going to do while they were developing all of these hypothetical cars no one cared about (Oops! You mean we're starting to run out of Celica engines?! Quick, shove Camry and Corolla engines in there instead!).



The second the deal with Toyota fell through they were done, because there was clearly never any money to make any of the cars beyond the Esprit when they did have engine sources. Mr. Crazy basically saying "Fine, we'll make our own engines... jerks!" didn't really add any credibility to it either.
 
Perhaps the best option is scale back production, restructure, and hopefully entice a buyer from a bigger company.

A lot manufacturers have Lotus do consultancy work, so Lotus should try to at least keep the engineering dept bring in the much needed cash.
 
Lotus has never fell short of ambition but, nihil novi sub sole. They need secure owners like Audi. If they can turn Lamborghini around. They can with lotus. They need to!
 
homeforsummer
I think Lotus's trouble was thinking they could stay afloat only producing small 2 seater niche sports cars but having massive overheads. After all, Morgan is a smaller company than Lotus and survives entirely on niche products (albeit some fairly high-end ones like the Supersports) and it's doing pretty well at the moment.
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Eh, well it was going ok prior to 2008. Sure, they weren't particularly profitable but they had steadily built a decent brand and reputation with the Elise. The Europa wasn't a blinding success it seems but the Evora was looking good (still is really). But that was only working because Proton were bank-rolling it all in an effort to improve their own image (which hasn't worked at all - barely anyone in the general public knows anything of the Malaysian connection).

The problem is they suddenly started hiring in new people, splash spending on motorsports and then trying to change their image from small-time sports car manufacturer to Ferrari-competitor. All still bank-rolled by Proton..or rather loans from the Malaysian government.

Clearly this wasn't going to last very long especially with the new models still in la-la land.

Basically the pre-2008 model wasn't sustainable but was seemingly an accpetable loss for Proton/Malaysia. Post-2008 the spending went to extremes (especially on motorsport sponsorship which has little to no immediate return) that now Lotus has made itself expenable.
 
obsessive rules
Lotus has never fell short of ambition but, nihil novi sub sole. They need secure owners like Audi. If they can turn Lamborghini around. They can with lotus. They need to!
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VW is kind of bloated already, and they are not showing signs of wanring to expand. A more prudent sale would be one to Toyota. Since Lotus have been customers to Toyota for engines, and with Toyota eager to get back into the sports car segment, a buyout of Lotus could at least give Lotus the financial backing.

Only worrisome part is the management, which at Toyota is still very traditional and very staunch on hybrids and anything that can sell cars to the bandwagon green craze. But if they made the GT86, then it's a sign they are tired being the old guy brand.

That, and Toyota is still reeling a bit from the economic collapse, so the purse strings are still tightened. If I remember correctly, the engineers at Subaru complained that they had to pry money out of Toyota.
 
Ardius
Eh, well it was going ok prior to 2008. Sure, they weren't particularly profitable but they had steadily built a decent brand and reputation with the Elise. The Europa wasn't a blinding success it seems but the Evora was looking good (still is really). But that was only working because Proton were bank-rolling it all in an effort to improve their own image (which hasn't worked at all - barely anyone in the general public knows anything of the Malaysian connection).

The problem is they suddenly started hiring in new people, splash spending on motorsports and then trying to change their image from small-time sports car manufacturer to Ferrari-competitor. All still bank-rolled by Proton..or rather loans from the Malaysian government.

Clearly this wasn't going to last very long especially with the new models still in la-la land.

Basically the pre-2008 model wasn't sustainable but was seemingly an accpetable loss for Proton/Malaysia. Post-2008 the spending went to extremes (especially on motorsport sponsorship which has little to no immediate return) that now Lotus has made itself expenable.
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Yep. Huge outgoings haven't helped at all.

Failure of the Europa wasn't such a big deal because it was entirely funded by Proton (it wasn't even originally going to be a Lotus). Expect Evora received plenty of dosh from Proton too. And it's a wonderful car by all accounts. And the Elise is no worse than it ever was, just a bit too expensive, and there are only so many derivatives of it you can make before the market goes stale.

But yes, there were just so many failings beyond the reach of what Lotus is capable of. That's why I brought up Morgan. Do one thing, do it well, and you'll prosper. Morgan hasn't put a foot wrong over the last few years and it's become arguably one of the most liked sports car brands as a result.
 
Preferably Lotus should also follow Morgan's example of still making lighweight cars..rather than the increasingly heavy cars they were planning to build. Though to be fair its because of a variety of reasons..but clearly making heavy GT cars really isn't their forte.
 
Ardius
Preferably Lotus should also follow Morgan's example of still making lighweight cars..rather than the increasingly heavy cars they were planning to build. Though to be fair its because of a variety of reasons..but clearly making heavy GT cars really isn't their forte.
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Agreed.

Lotus should go back to being Lotus.

The Elise saved the company back in the mid-1990s. It was hugely clever, brilliantly engineered, and a lot of good, old-fashioned fun.

Lotus probably has some of the best automotive engineers in the world. They need a free rein to come up with another "Elise" - not literally another mid-engined sports car, but another simple, genius idea at an affordable price that the market cannot live without.

Rather than a bunch of GTs that would no doubt be impressive, but a) aren't being built and b) would still struggle image-wise against Porsche, Ferrari et al.

Toronado
Morgan's even been doing something along the lines of fantastic (albeit in comparison) of late, haven't they?
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The three wheeler was a masterstroke, and anyone who's anyone seems to be buying one. It's had huge coverage on both sides of the pond, which isn't bad for a daft and very English 1930s-inspired sports car.

Then there are the Aero-based cars, which are all works of art and serve a purpose at the top end of the market, and of course they're still selling classic Morgans too, albeit ones with modern drivetrains.

They've essentially been producing the same cars for a hundred years but absolutely dominate that niche. The only difference really is that they now have an international audience.

That, and they're still family-run, which cuts out a huge amount of the Lotus-style BS. The company is really prospering at the moment, as far as I'm aware.
 
Not just Ferrari and Porsche, but even locally as a British manufacturer they'd be competing with Jaguar, Aston Martin and now McLaren as well. All of these are much more famous and have established brands already in the GT category.

Before Lotus were sort of filling a gap between kit cars and small companies and the Porsches, Jaguars, Ferraris, Astons, etc. So I think Lotus could still exist back in that market..but they've been attempting leave it.

Arguably Morgan or Caterham could move into that in-between market that Lotus had with the Elise - not that they need to though.
 
Ardius
Arguably Morgan or Caterham could move into that in-between market that Lotus had with the Elise - not that they need to though.
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Shhh ... don't spoil Morgan. Morgan is an oddity and must stay that way :D

I think Caterham is the most probable buyer (for 1 penny) of Lotus in a very bnear future. And I just hope the Hicom guys don't take the Lotus name from the UK and move it to China or Malaysia.

PS - If they do, however, we might even see a Caterham 111R next to the Seven in the near future.
 
Ardius
Arguably Morgan or Caterham could move into that in-between market that Lotus had with the Elise - not that they need to though.
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My last hope is that, if the worst happens and we lose Lotus, Caterham is able to buy the rights to the Elise. Guarantee they could keep selling that car for another 20 years with no problems. It's adaptable towards engines too, just like the 7 is - so they'd have little trouble slotting a Ford lump in there just as they do with the 7 currently.

Of course I hope Lotus doesn't fold, but I'd hate for their IP to disappear into the ether with them if they did go.

Like I say though, Lotus just needs a killer app. They need a sports car that nobody else could engineer, at the right price. The Elise was about £21k when it came out, which was something of a bargain at the time. An Elise now with only minor alterations for £28k is a bit steep when a Boxster is only a few grand more.

A Lotus MX-5 rival would sell. No doubt about it. Maybe bung an Omnivore engine in the back. Hell, even a range-extender. Really hit the market with something ahead of its time, but not so far that people get weirded out.
 
homeforsummer
My last hope is that, if the worst happens and we lose Lotus, Caterham is able to buy the rights to the Elise. Guarantee they could keep selling that car for another 20 years with no problems. It's adaptable towards engines too, just like the 7 is - so they'd have little trouble slotting a Ford lump in there just as they do with the 7 currently.
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I seem to remember the Dutch aluminium extrusion company will no longer able to produce the 111 chassis for Lotus or any other right holder. It is what made the car so amazing and relevant nearly 20 years since it was designed. This may have been because they would be unable to meet Lotus' production expectations for the platform, but a lower run licensee may get continued production.
 
The press release that attempted to put an end to the myths about Lotus' problems, which was sent out to the media and posted on their website and Facebook page on Wednesday evening, certainly doesn't give the impression of a company that's in control of itself. As Richard Porter (motoring journalist and the guy who runs sniffpetrol.com) has since blogged, it resembles "the wild-eyed, spittle-flecked ranting of a drunken 2am text from a bitter ex-lover." For those who haven't seen it already:
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Never let the facts get in the way of a good story….

Take a little look at what we found online. Don’t you think it’s funny? We do. We had a good old giggle. After all, we love a bit of self irony, just as well really. Although it’s funny, this one’s not accurate but then again, why let the facts get in the way of a good story? The inconvenient truth is – surprise, surprise – we have never said that there are no problems at Lotus.

So whilst lots of people obviously feel the need to comment on Lotus’ current situation in the absence of proper facts or evidence, we can’t ignore these particular mistruths any longer even if we would like to, so we have decided to turn a negative into a positive and use this hilarious piece of ‘art’ to set the record straight regarding the status quo at Group Lotus and try to return a little stability to a fast changing situation.

False rumour #1: Dany Bahar is no longer CEO of Group Lotus.
Fact: Rubbish – Dany Bahar still is.

False rumour #2: Dato’ Sri Syed is no longer Managing Director of Proton.
Fact: Again rubbish. He still is.

You can thank good old Tony Fernandes for these two. Don’t take everything he tweets too seriously – perhaps he’s still frustrated about owning Caterham instead of Lotus and the fact that he fights HRT and Marussia instead of Mercedes and Ferrari in F1.

And whilst we’re on the subject of jokes - do you know the latest F1 joke? Mike Gascoyne, Caterham Group’s Chief Technical Officer, has gone missing. Why? He’s looking for the 30 to 40 points he predicted for the last F1 season. Funny.

Speaking of F1: It seems that one special so called ‘independent’ source is at the root of the lion’s share of damaging rumours and misleading stories. The delightful Joe Saward which leads us nicely to….

False rumour #3: Joe Saward is JUST an independent journalist.
Fact: He is an active Director on the Caterham Group Board.

And unlike some, we don’t want to get too personal, so we’ll leave it to you to judge how ‘independent’ his stories about Lotus are.

False rumour #4: Group Lotus is no longer involved in F1.
Fact: Lotus F1 Team and Group Lotus have reshaped their commercial relationship earlier this year. The new governance agreement signifies the continued commitment of Group Lotus to the team and the sport.

Group Lotus’ branding and marketing rights and subsequent activities remain unaffected by the new agreement until at least 2017. Alongside continued branding and title partnership status, Group Lotus is also the exclusive master licensee for all Lotus F1 Team merchandise.

The new agreement was reached following Group Lotus owners Proton providing team owners Genii with a £30m loan which is repayable within three years. In order to secure the loan Genii used 100% of the F1 team’s assets as collateral meaning that under the conditions of the loan agreement Proton have been given full title guarantee to all plant, machinery, show cars, computers, office and the Lotus F1 Team headquarters.

In addition Proton retains the rights to purchase 10% of the F1 team. Another 10% share option will be activated if the team default on their loan obligations with Proton.

Again we leave it to your judgement how ‘bad’ Lotus’ current situation in F1 is. And speaking of bad situations…..

False rumour #5: Group Lotus is going into administration.
Fact: Rubbish. The takeover of our parent company Proton by DRB-HICOM couldn’t have come at a worse time, but up until that point Proton was (and still remains) fully committed to our five year business plan to create jobs and to expand the factory and business. With the takeover process the funding has been restricted and DRB-HICOM is taking time to understand what to do with the business. DRB-HICOM is currently in the middle of due diligence of Group Lotus and there have been and continue to be positive discussions between Group Lotus senior management and senior management at DRB-HICOM both here in Hethel and in Malaysia. At no point has DRB-HICOM indicated to Group Lotus that it intends to put the company into administration. The over-active rumour mill is seriously damaging our business reputation, image and credibility but it is what it is.

The simple fact is, and we haven’t denied this - Lotus is going through a very difficult phase at the moment but we are showing true fighting spirit every day in trying to keep this vision alive. This is also a fact – no matter what people outside of Lotus may say or tweet or blog.
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Richard's blog on the Evo site is probably worth a read, and I am largely of the same opinion that Lotus needs to expand, but their proposed 5 model plan was simply unrealistic at best and and at worst the cars went against everything Lotus stands for, obviously not a great way to secure their future.
 
Peterram430
Richard's blog on the Evo site is probably worth a read, and I am largely of the same opinion that Lotus needs to expand, but their proposed 5 model plan was simply unrealistic at best and and at worst the cars went against everything Lotus stands for, obviously not a great way to secure their future.
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Plus the v6 Elise/Exige. The Exige rally car. The evora. Etc. etc

Anyway it is ambitious, 5 cars on 20p and a shoestring? Naa. But DB said even if half the plan failed lotus would be in a better situation than it is now. Even if it's just
he ethos city car, it'll get more funds and proton could sell a cheaper version to make the costs up. Hopefully lotus survives and thrives. We need them, they are the greatest British mark. EVER.
 
I don't want to see Lotus fold - Morgan is an example of how to stay alive (but, as said before, with niche cars - which are absurdly cool, by the way.)

The Elise was what kept the company alive. They definetly need something like it (not a direct copy... But something... FUN.
 
Like Ardius said, secure their future for how long? The year before they burn through it and want more?
 
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Ardius
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-17720535

Nah, the government should put the money into Jaguar-Land Rover instead and make the most of a company who actually know what they are doing.
Besides, Lotus is going to need more than 10mil to "secure its future".
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Jlr doesn't need money. The rangie is a HUUUUUUGE success and jag are announcing a new offensive on the Germans. Lotus owners proton are successful so can inject more money into the company. The new owners of proton are deciding lotuses future, could be administration. Lotus could pull out of f1 and lm until it gets more money then decide to go back into the sport.
 
But the money was going to Lotus because they had created jobs, Jaguar-Land Rover have also just done that.

Putting money into Lotus appears to be just throwing money into a sinking ship. If I was the government, I'd wait (as they appear to be) until Lotus has secured its future properly.
At least putting money into JLR is clearly going to be money well-spent at the moment. I'm not sure they don't need it, certainly they are highly successful at the moment on their own, but I'm pretty sure 10mil could be useful somewhere.

Certainly I think 10mil would go further with JLR than Lotus at the moment. But lets not change this into a Group Lotus vs. Jaguar-Land Rover argument, the same principles applies to any other successful local business at the moment - the government should focus on supporting businesses that are already doing well just as much as it should help those that are struggling.

There is no point giving money out to businesses which clearly aren't inspiring a lot of future confidence. And before anyone says it, no 10mil wouldn't really secure their future...Lotus need far more than a few million to secure itself.
 
Let's not. Jlr have just announced new models so they obviously don't need money. Lotus NEEDS to be bought by vw or BMW or a very secure marque. Vw turned Lamborghini and Bentley around. Why not lotus?
 
VW don't need Lotus. I don't think another manufacturer necessarily needs to buy them, they just need a reasonable investor to put the money in and change the people at the top - because quite clearly the current Group Lotus management are the main problem.
I don't think money has really been the problem seeing as Proton bank-rolled everything before now and look where we are. Simply getting VW in to give them money doesn't change anything.

The only thing that changed since 2008 is the management direction with the car models and the huge step up in motorsport-sponsorship programmes. So what should Lotus do? Get rid of the sponsorship deals that they really don't need.
Why on earth are they sponsorsing teams and badging engines in America? Has it had any impact at all on their sales in that region?
Even worse than that, GP3 and GP2 sponsorship - does anyone outside of motorsport even know about this?
 
I think there are a few good reasons Lotus should get nothing from the government.

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Along with all the other re-brand jobs lately.

Who would have thought that spending what money you have left renaming race cars instead of ensuring your company is actually around in 5 years would backfire. I get advertising, but is there really any benefit having a car in LMP1, LMP2 and a GT car instead of just one class? Than there is the IndyCar thing which is a fiasco in itself as them having enough engines for the whole season is in doubt. Than to top it off they have perhaps one of the most confusing relationships with the Lotus-Renault F1 team(which only geniuses can follow at this point). I know there was also a planned rally team as well but I'm not sure what became of that as well as some teams in lower tier series'.

I almost wish that if they are going to die they would have done so quietly and not spending every last dime making sure people knew Lotus exists right before it doesn't.
 

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