Luxury Sedan comparo

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jeffgoddin

jeffgoddin

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hmm... limited myself to cars over 29000cr and 1340kg but the field is still pretty broad in terms of performance, not going to be able to compare a 740i with the XJR for instance because fully tuned the 740i is still weaker than the XJR stock.

Well, I'll start with a list, feel free to vote any of the following out of the comparo:

Chaser TRD Sports X30
GT-R 4Door R33
Aristo V300
NISMO Autech GT-R 4door R33
Audi S4
AMG C43
XJR Vehicle
Galant VR4 '99
Galant Super VR-4 '98
Altezza 280T
Chaser Tourer V '96
XJSport 3.2
AMG E55
Lexus IS200
Alfa 166 3.0 V6
Laguna V6
328i
Lexus GS300
Lexus GS400
Taurus SHO
Accord Type R
Audi A4
Xantia
Vectra GSi
406 Sedan
740i
528i

That was in order of ultimate kg/hp.

Evidently there are four categories of luxury: entry level from 29,000 up to 40, mid from 40 up to 60, high end from 60 up to 100, and ultra high end over 100. We have only 3 ultra high end, and one is the deadbeat 740i so I'd hate to exclude it if there was some way I could find anything good to say about it. We even only have 3 high end, again one of which is the deadbeat 528i. What's up with that? PD harshing on BMW? It's not until we look at midrange and entry level options that we find the top performers start to show up.

I could up the minimum weight to like 1500kg if that feels more like what a luxury sedan should have, that would only knock out the Chaser TRD among the top ultimate performers and would narrow the field considerably.

Any thoughts?
 
Once I made a similar thing, but only considered European Sedans: tested these:

BMW 528i (138hp, multiplied to 192), Cr 61,500
Alfa Romeo 166 2,0 TS (148hp), Cr 40,850
Alfa Romeo 166 2,5 V6 (208hp), Cr 46,210
Alfa Romeo 166 3,0 V6 (243hp), Cr 51,000
Citroen Xantia 3,0 V6 Exclusive (190hp), Cr 39,225
Audi A4 2,8 quattro (191hp), Cr 50,525
Opel Vectra 2,5 V6 GSi (191hp), Cr 36,750
Jaguar XJ 3,2 V6 Sports (237hp), Cr 61,540
Renault Laguna V6 (190hp), Cr 36,550

The fastest seemed to be the Alfa 166 3,0V6 (At Seattle Short), but I suspect the Jaguar could be a little better only trying more times. I had also multiplied the power of the 528 in order to get its original power (never understood why in GT2 it has that shameful 139hp).

The Laptimes were:
Alfa 166 3,0 V6 1'09.04
Jaguar XJ6 1'09.81

The other ones were above 1'10; the BMW and the Audi proved to be the slowest ones, while the 166 2,0 and the Xantia were simply too underpowered; the best-buy should be the Laguna, which is the 2nd cheaper car in the lot and delivers good performances, and it's also quite funny to drive.
I remember from the last years I liked the C43 and hated the 740 (also, I've never understood why they didn't put, for example, the 850CSi instead of the 840 and the 760i instead of the 740: the V12 version of both was a lot more powerful than the V8 one...)

I'd say that the best in the 29-40k class would be the Laguna, and, in the 40-60k, the 166 3,0. Don't know the other ones very much.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience, Patruck. Makes sense to look at the European luxury sedans, they pretty much had the corner on the market. According to wikipedia, Americans pretty much dropped all their luxury models in the 80's, and the Japanese never really got into the super high end.

I've looked over these candidates and have broken up the field into four levels of luxury.

The Gentlemen's Club of elite luxury vehicles has four representatives:

Mercedes Benz AMG E55 - most expensive
BMW 740i - heaviest and still very expensive
Mercedes Benz AMG C43 - still over 100,000cr
Jaguar XJR - still very heavy and just under 100,000cr

I ran four time trials with them, stock at red rock, fully tuned at Trial Mountain, and tuned to adjusted weight to power ratios of 4.22 kg/hp at 1550kg at SSR5 and 3.43 kg/hp at 1500kg at Seattle.

Stock, the E55 was the fastest by a small margin over the XJR. Fully tuned, the C43 was the fastest by a wide margin over the E55 with the XJR not too far behind that. Tuned to 4.22 kg/hp the E55 was again fastest by a small margin over the C43, with the 740i also slightly faster than the XJR. At 3.43 kg/hp the C43 gained the advantage over the E55, with the XJR slowest and the 740i not able to compete.

The XJR suffers from an engine with no real powerband, but it handles pretty well in general. The C43 becomes somewhat frantic at full tuning but has the best potential performance of the lot, yet the E55 has better stock performance and is much heavier and more expensive. Given that the 740i has more right to claim a top position as a luxury vehicle (being heaviest and very expensive) and since it did beat the XJR in the one tuning state where it could compete on an even basis, I'm going to have to rank the top four as follows, in terms of both performance and luxury:

1) E55 (five stars)
2) C43 (four stars)
3) 740i (two stars)
4) XJR (one star)

This is just the gentlemen's club, more to come, including overall best in class eventually.

Executive's bracket next:
XJSport 3.2
528i
Aristo V300
NISMO GT-R Autech 4Door R33
Lexus GS400

Middle management:
Alfa 166 3.0 V6
Lexus GS300
328i
GT-R 4Door R33
Audi S4
Xantia

Aspiring interns:
Chaser TRD Sports X30
Taurus SHO
Audi A4
Galant Super VR4
406 Sedan
Chaser Tourer V '96
Laguna
Galant VR4
Vectra GSi
Accord Type R
Alfa 156 2.5 V6
Lexus IS200
Altezza 280T
 
Brilliant thread :) I never liked those luxo barges, but you managed to make these comparos interesting. Props to both of you 👍

I quite liked the 740i. Looks unique out of all the BMWs. I agree that it's turns like the Titanic.
 
And not only it doesn't turn, but it's not as powerful as an E55 AMG. When you try to drift that car, it doesn't want to, because at high revs it doesn't breathe, and because at low revs there's not enough torque to compensate the weight. I don't know why they chose the 740 instead of the more powerful 750...
 
Worked through the Executive's bracket. Decided to skip the 528i, really an astoundingly poor performer, couldn't compare it fairly. Here's how the rest fared:

1) Lexus GS400: what an engine! Best showing stock and tuned, though ultimately the rest of the pack will leave it in the dust as for some reason nobody wants to tune it over 421hp. Naturally aspirated Toyota 4000cc V8 is the real star here. Handling can be a little funny with weight transfer at times but overall consistent. Actually produced a best in show lap time at Seattle, beating out the E55 and C43, was third to them at SSR5, and was third to the E55 and XJR stock. Good job Lexus, and at less than half the price! Plus it looks like a luxury car.

2) Autech/NISMO Skyline GT-R R33 4 Door - soild performer, consistent handling, but more peaky V6 engine means less power delivery on average than the Lexus. Was the second best performer in all trials, behind the Lexus stock and at tuning states for SSR5 and Seattle, and behind the Aristo V300 at ultimate tuning. And as opposed to the Lexus, this doesn't look like a car you'd be comfortable loading your kids and dog into... ie not really luxury class, more sport sedan.

3) Aristo V300 - nice car, with only slightly less oomph than the Skyline, but eventually it gets more power and will be among the best sedans with full tuning (best ultimate tuning lap time at Trial Mtn so far by 1.5 secs over the Skyline, with the C43 a second behind that!) Takes R mod, too.

4) Jaguar XJ Sport 3.2 - what a laggard. Even without looking at the 528i I'm tempted to say that it couldn't be worse than this rotten performer. Crappy powerband, peaks above redline, small V8. Pretty consistently rotten handling, too. Good thing I'm not a Jaguar fan, or I'd be seriously disappointed.


Went back and looked at engines for the luxury sedans. Everything in the Gentlemen's brackets is V8, and I learned than Mercedes uses displacement in its nomenclature (E55=about 5500cc's, C43=about 4300cc's). I now see why the E55 is such a beast. As mentioned above, the Executive's bracket is split between V8's and V6's (Aristo being a V6, too.) But beyond that, only the Taurus will be a V8 (and a smallish one, though larger than the XJ Sport), and in the aspiring intern's bracket we even get a number of I4's down to 1998cc's. So, barring miraculous engineering, I'm guessing that the absolute best luxury sedans have already been covered, since the rest of the pack will be a lot more peaky in power in all probability with their much smaller displacement engines. But we shall see (eventually...)
 
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jeffgoddin
Worked through the Executive's bracket. Decided to skip the 528i, really an astoundingly poor performer, couldn't compare it fairly. Here's how the rest fared:

1) Lexus GS400: what an engine! Best showing stock and tuned, though ultimately the rest of the pack will leave it in the dust as for some reason nobody wants to tune it over 421hp. Naturally aspirated Toyota 4000cc V8 is the real star here. Handling can be a little funny with weight transfer at times but overall consistent. Actually produced a best in show lap time at Seattle, beating out the E55 and C43, was third to them at SSR5, and was third to the E55 and XJR stock. Good job Lexus, and at less than half the price! Plus it looks like a luxury car.

2) Autech/NISMO Skyline GT-R R33 4 Door - soild performer, consistent handling, but more peaky V6 engine means less power delivery on average than the Lexus. Was the second best performer in all trials, behind the Lexus stock and at tuning states for SSR5 and Seattle, and behind the Aristo V300 at ultimate tuning. And as opposed to the Lexus, this doesn't look like a car you'd be comfortable loading your kids and dog into... ie not really luxury class, more sport sedan.

3) Aristo V300 - nice car, with only slightly less oomph than the Skyline, but eventually it gets more power and will be among the best sedans with full tuning (best ultimate tuning lap time at Trial Mtn so far by 1.5 secs over the Skyline, with the C43 a second behind that!) Takes R mod, too.

4) Jaguar XJ Sport 3.2 - what a laggard. Even without looking at the 528i I'm tempted to say that it couldn't be worse than this rotten performer. Crappy powerband, peaks above redline, small V8. Pretty consistently rotten handling, too. Good thing I'm not a Jaguar fan, or I'd be seriously disappointed.


Went back and looked at engines for the luxury sedans. Everything in the Gentlemen's brackets is V8, and I learned than Mercedes uses displacement in its nomenclature (E55=about 5500cc's, C43=about 4300cc's). I now see why the E55 is such a beast. As mentioned above, the Executive's bracket is split between V8's and V6's (Aristo being a V6, too.) But beyond that, only the Taurus will be a V8 (and a smallish one, though larger than the XJ Sport), and in the aspiring intern's bracket we even get a number of I4's down to 1998cc's. So, barring miraculous engineering, I'm guessing that the absolute best luxury sedans have already been covered, since the rest of the pack will be a lot more peaky in power in all probability with their much smaller displacement engines. But we shall see (eventually...)
Click to expand...

Are you talking about the Autech/Nismo Stagea?
 
Autech and Nismo also teamed up on the 4 door sedan Skyline GT-R R33 40th Anniversary prize car. A used version by Autech but without the additional Nismo tuning is available in the used lot, and promises more ultimate hp.
 
Have been working through these again, and just realized I'm done with the middle management category.

Many of these could not be compared beyond a moderate tuning state so it was hard to make an overall judgement but I think I won't hear too much disagreement with this:

#1) Chaser TRD Sports X30 - wait, I thought X30 was the chassis code for the '70's Chasers, wouldn't this be more like X100? great moderately tuned, just behind 328i, and with more reliable handling than the GS300 and 328i. Second best under heavy tuning, pretty close behind Alfa. At full tuning, again it's just behind somebody else, 1:19.542 at Trial Mountain, but also again with better handling.

#2) Lexus GS300 - best time with moderate tuning, that's worth something

#3) 328i - really just behind GS300 with moderate tuning

#4) S4 - unremarkable with moderate tuning, still unremarkable with heavy tuning, but somehow comes to life ultimately, because at full tuning including R mod, it's the best I've seen so far, pulling 1:19.415 at Trial Mountain. Maybe it was just meant to be fully tuned...

#5) Alfa 166 3.0 V6 - worst performance moderately tuned, but actually rises to the top of the pack under heavy tuning, beating out the Chaser TRD, S4, and GT-R 4 Door at Seattle Circuit. Six gears can make a big difference.

Audi A4 - middle of the pack with moderate tuning, but with better than average handling.

Xantia - fat engine produces solid performance, just behind A4 with moderate tuning. Inability to perform at high levels and so/so performance at moderate levels drag the Xantia and A4 down towards the bottom of the pack.

GT-R 4 door R33 - unremarkable with moderate tuning, and becomes worse with more tuning, worst of the 4 tested at heavy tuning by far. At full tuning, no R mod available, pulls in 1:21.663 at Trial Mountain, just behind the Nismo GT-R Autech 4 door R33, despite having more hp per pound, and far behind the S4 and Chaser TRD, also the Aristo V300. In its favor it's easy to handle, just don't expect any blazing times.

In terms of Absolute rankings, the GS400 is still on top along with the E55 and C43 behind it. The Chaser, GS300, and 328i, Aristo V300, Nismo GT-R, and S4 are pretty much the rest of the top 9, in pretty much that order.
 
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That's amazing the Skyline got one of the worst ratings, lol. I would have guessed the Audi would certainly be amongst the best, as is shown in the results.
 
Yeah, the NISMO version of the R33 sedan is clearly better than the one you can buy in the used car lot, even though it looks like it ends up with less power at full tuning.
 
Yeah, I'm surprised the Skyline doesn't rank higher. Maybe it's that one model Kaz had a bad experience in? :sly:
 
Well, took one last look at lux sedans to finish reviewing the "aspiring interns" category, and here's the results, somewhat surprising that all the 4 cylinders finished above all the 6 cylinders. V8 still on top. Had to remove the Vectra since I realized it's a liftback.

tested at SSR5 tuned to (adjusted) 4.22 kg/hp at 1550kg as above, with sport suspension, brakes, custom tranny, and hard slicks

#1) Taurus SHO - very consistent fast times, 1:27.586 best lap at SSR5
#2) Accord Type R - not as consistent but still great best lap, 1:27.673
#3) Altezza 280T - had some spinout issues, but great potential, 1:27.734
#4) 406 Sedan - 1:28.205 - big drop in time, but respectable
#5) Lexus IS200 - 1:28.383

from there another big drop in time:
#6) Alfa 156 2.5V6 - powerband peaking at redline is no good, but 6 gears is...
#7) Chaser Tourer V '96
#8) Galant VR4 '99 - big disappointment - more for rally?
#9) Galant super VR4 '98 - not very super, but I guess that refers to trim not performance...

and finally just for reference, since SSR5 tuning was the only one where everybody but the 528i could compete, here's the overall best performers (out of 23 tested):

#1) Lexus GS400 by far at 1:26.694
#2) AMG E55 at 1:27.356, big engines are nice
#3) AMG C43 at 1:27.476
#4) Lexus GS300 at 1:27.539, guess Lexus makes 'em good, best 6 cylinder
#5) Taurus SHO at 1:27.586, best FF
#6) 328i at 1:27.606
#7) Accord Type R at 1:27.673, best 4 cylinder, and a FF!
#8) Chaser TRD Sports X30 at 1:27.729
#9) Altezza 280T at 1:27.734
#10) NISMO GT-R Autech 4Door R33 at 1:27.963

biggest underachiver award goes to XJR Vehicle probably, fat engine, 8 cylinders, but way at the bottom of the pack...

and similarly biggest overachiever would have to be the Accord Type R, 2.2L I4 engine with FF layout, amazing that it can compete with the big boys!
 
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Some very interesting results there. I guess SSR5 is too power oriented (the front straight is HUGE!). Maybe on a more technical track the lower powered but lighter cars will be able to perform better.
 
Yeah, you need power to get top speed out on the straight, but overall I feel that SSR5 is a very balanced track. You've got to be able to hold speed around the first two corners, get around a very tight 120 degree, hold speed again through the downhill S, navigate a tight 180, dance through the right-left-hard right, and most critically hold/maximize speed around the last long, fairly tight uphill corner so you can get back onto the main straight going as fast as possible. Light nimble cars definitely do better through all these technical sections, offsetting the advantage the heavier more powerful cars have on the one very long and two medium straights that allow you to get up to speeds where drag becomes an issue.

Also, keep in mind that I use an adjusted weight to power ratio. Roughly my rule is this: pick an anchor weight and divide it by 30 (say 1200kg and divide by 30 equals 40kg.) For every 40kg (in this example) your car is above or below the anchor weight, increase or decrease the target weight to power ratio by 1%. For this comparo, I had a target weight to power ratio of 4.22kg/hp with an anchor weight of 1550kg. Using a couple of extreme examples, the 740i was tuned at 1828kg so the adjusted weight to power ratio I used to determine hp was 4.51kg/hp, yielding 405hp as a goal, instead of the 433hp which you'd get using 4.22kg/hp. On the other hand, the Accord Type R was tuned at 1276kg, so its adjusted weight to power ratio was reduced to 3.93kg/hp, telling me I should tune it to 325hp instead of the 302hp that would give me a 4.22kg/hp ratio. Through testing this rule over a half dozen times now I'm 100% confident it's more fair than tuning everybody to the same weight to power ratio regardless of weight. Of course, though I feel this rule is close to being ideal, I'm not saying it is perfect or scientifically proven, it's just what I tried that seems to work very well.
 
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I'll revive this, so recent arrivals can see, but also to add, after doing this (like a year and a half after) I realized that I wasn't tuning 4WD suspensions right (they need very different settings, like MR, while FF and FR are more like how cars come stock, so easier to tune.) So, S4, and 2 GT-R's might do better than I tested if I tried them again knowing what I do now about suspension tuning for 4wd's.
 

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