Marvel vs DC

[Terronium-12]

I feel like I've created this thread once before, but in any case DC seems to be in an ever-revolving slump with their recent movies, with only Batman and Superman having success and even then both of those franchises have suffered from less than lackluster movies. There's a very easy way to turn this around though.

At least in theory, that is.

Currently, plans call for the DCU to ultimately combat the MCU with JLA Parts 1 and 2 and while I'm moderately excited I don't think this is the way to go. Marvel is banking on what's essentially a two-part film adaptation of the Infinity Gauntlet to cement their comic book film dominance and it works because the Infinity Gauntlet, for better and worse, changed the Marvel universe. What could DC do to combat this?

Again, in theory, it's extremely simple: Crisis. On. Infinite Earths. I cannot express how badass it would be, perhaps more so than seeing Thanos wreck any and everyone with absolute ease, to see Anti-Monitor absorbing and abolishing entire universes. It would absolutely involve having to reboot old characters, introduce a slew of new characters, and create a rich movie-friendly lore that works within the story. It can be done and the proof of that is Marvel doing it with the eventual payoff in Infinity War. and they're both of arguable scale.

DC, please!

 

[JKgo]

...A leaked scene from BVS.

Okay, so here's my two cents. The more I read/hear about DC's plans to counter MCU, the less interested I become. And this is coming from a DC guy. So far, I feel they got the castings right (yes, even Luthor and W.W.) but when I heard David Ayer doing a Suicide Squad movie...hmm...

Then there is Zack Snyder....sigh. I haven't seen a movie from him that made me 100% happy. 300 was...forgettable (yes, there I said it!!), Sucker Punch....let's not mention that, and even Watchmen....sigh.
He didn't do Supes any favors with MoS.
But seeing that even Brian Singer stumbled with the property, so I guess he gets a pass on that one....

 

[sems4arsenal]

People will see any movie with Batman/Superman in it, DC's main job is making Heros like the Flash, Green Lantern, etc appeal to the casual movie goer in the same level as Cap or Thor for example.

Either way they'll get all the money from their movies even if they are average.

 

[FoolKiller]

I feel like I've created this thread once before,

I remembering discussing Iron Man vs Batman at one point.

Currently, plans call for the DCU to ultimately combat the MCU with JLA Parts 1 and 2 and while I'm moderately excited I don't think this is the way to go. Marvel is banking on what's essentially a two-part film adaptation of the Infinity Gauntlet to cement their comic book film dominance and it works because the Infinity Gauntlet, for better and worse, changed the Marvel universe. What could DC do to combat this?

I think you are jumping the gun here. So far DC is in the stage where Marvel was after Iron Man came out. They have built on to that for seven years now. Marvel has had two phases before truly building up to Thanos. The new Batman isn't directly tied to the Nolan films (supposedly), so we are just at the very beginning of Phase 1 for DC. I honestly believe that the DC is making, and you and other fans are pushing for it, is rushing to bring it all together. Instead of letting each character kind of build their own mythos first they are bringing at least three of them in on their second film.

Again, in theory, it's extremely simple: Crisis. On. Infinite Earths. I cannot express how badass it would be, perhaps more so than seeing Thanos wreck any and everyone with absolute ease, to see Anti-Monitor absorbing and abolishing entire universes. It would absolutely involve having to reboot old characters, introduce a slew of new characters, and create a rich movie-friendly lore that works within the story. It can be done and the proof of that is Marvel doing it with the eventual payoff in Infinity War. and they're both of arguable scale.

If DC can pull this off this quickly it is purely because Marvel setup the audience for the whatever gets thrown their way. That said, their TV shows are kind of setting a precedent, even if they aren't direct tie-ins. We can see the DCU in its glory in Flash and Arrow.

But that creates a new issue. Not bringing the TV versions into the films means that Crisis is already being done on TV. "Flash Disappears in Crisis."

And that is where I think DC has already stumbled. Why reinvent Flash and Arrow? They exist. They make small references to the JLA and other characters, as well as some universe spanning storylines. Fans of the show will see them in the movies and question every tiny difference. Why change it? It worked as it was. In fact, it will get bigger with a Legends of Tomorrow series spinning off from Arrow and The Flash.

Add in to the CW DC universe that there will be a Supergirl show on CBS and Titans on TNT. Supergirl will include Superman, but not the movie Superman. Titans will have Robin, who was trained and worked with Batman, but not the movie Batman. Just to make it even more confusing, Supergirl is not in the same universe as Titans and not in the same universe as the CW trilogy.

I'm leaving out Gotham because it takes place as an origin story to whatever version of Batman you want it to be and nothing in the show will ultimately affect any other show or movie.



Some Marvel characters are separated by studio deals from MCU, but only Quicksilver has the risk of cross-brand confusion so far, and the two versions take place so far apart in time and space that they seem like completely different people. And it is possible to do TV shows that are part of the canon but not a part of the story. Marvel is doing it with The Defenders. Daredevil vaguely references the attack on New York, but no one is expecting to see Iron Man go flying overhead.

DC will need to be redundant or find new stories on the scale of Crisis. The Flash created a whole new problem with DC. It is arguably one of, if not the greatest comic book TV show ever. It has taken on concepts that you would expect to only find in films. And Arrow is a part of that, not to mention the moment a Lazarus Pit came into play we were in movie-quality territory. Now, a couple of writers are working on a Flash film. Their biggest competition? The Flash. What can be done in 2-2.5 hours that will make us accept it as equals to a 22 hour story? Likely twice that much by the time the movie comes out. Who in Flash's Rogue's gallery will be big enough to be just a single big screen challenge on par with Reverse Flash, Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Firestorm, The Trickster, Boomerang, Grodd, etc.?

DC's biggest challenge is their own success. With the TV shows doing extremely well and the one movie they have so far leaving a bad taste in some fans' mouths as well as a new casting decision that has caused some controversy, the films have an uphill battle to meet the quality the TV shows have fans expecting.

Maybe if the movies struggle they will fall back on TV. Even The New Adventures of Lois and Clark had a favorable fan following.

I would love to see a culmination of JLA members in their own TV shows with a group JLA miniseries over the summer every year.

People will see any movie with Batman/Superman in it, DC's main job is making Heros like the Flash, Green Lantern, etc appeal to the casual movie goer in the same level as Cap or Thor for example.

Flash, Green Arrow, and the Atom already do, along with side heroes like Arsenal, Red Arrow, Firestorm, and Black Canary. Their TV versions have opened their worlds up to the general audiences.

Either way they'll get all the money from their movies even if they are average.

I am/was a lifelong, die hard Superman fan. There are video and pictures of five-year-old me at my birthday party in a Superman tank top with a Superman hat having a Superman birthday party. I looked up to Superman so much that when he became Evil Superman in Superman III I cried. After MoS I am not sure I am willing to pay theater money to see BvS.

 

[sems4arsenal]

Flash, Green Arrow, and the Atom already do, along with side heroes like Arsenal, Red Arrow, Firestorm, and Black Canary. Their TV versions have opened their worlds up to the general audiences.

Have they said that they'll be bringing them to the big screen?

I am/was a lifelong, die hard Superman fan. There are video and pictures of five-year-old me at my birthday party in a Superman tank top with a Superman hat having a Superman birthday party. I looked up to Superman so much that when he became Evil Superman in Superman III I cried. After MoS I am not sure I am willing to pay theater money to see BvS.

Interesting, I thought MOS was not bad but I understand your point, I think BVS shall fix whatever was wrong with it though.

 

[FoolKiller]

Have they said that they'll be bringing them to the big screen?

Flash, yes. Green Arrow, no. A Flash film is in preproduction right now, as they try to get the script together.

This is the lineup for Justice League.

Green Lantern will need a big push to get us past the previous atrocity. Aquaman has been hyped so much since Entourage that it will guarantee butss in seats. Cyborg...eh, that will be a struggle as most average people have never heard of him. If I had to guess I would say they were probably worried that Martian Manhunter and Vision were too similar, but they needed someone to act in a similar role.


Ultimately, the point I was making is that DC has shown the world the kinds of characters that you were talking about in a way that fans can get on board with. The bigger question is if the way Hollywood works will ruin it.

Interesting, I thought MOS was not bad but I understand your point, I think BVS shall fix whatever was wrong with it though.

Even Alan Moore (you know, the guy who wrote Watchmen and V for Vendetta) gets it. Like I said, Evil Superman in Superman III made me cry and all he did was create dangerous mischief and try to kill Clark Kent (It's a ridiculous movie worth skipping, if you haven't seen it). In MoS he recklessly destroys half the city and takes actions so risky for wiping out all of Metropolis that his snapping Zod's neck almost felt mundane.


I don't feel as if I watched the first movie in a Justice League series. I feel like I watched the first movie in an Injustice series. And from what I have seen of BvS so far, it seems to kind of be on that path.

Hey, maybe Supes turns it around and becomes the truth, justice, and the American way guy and the big threat for the JLA is an Injustice storyline where another Superman never stops killing. Or maybe at the end of the film Batman creates an interdimensional portal and finds the real Justice League, where superheroes don't only work at night and on cloudy days (DC movie heroes are apparently vampires). It would be kind of like when Dorothy steps through the door of her house and into Oz. Then the Justice League films are about stopping killer Superman and ending his tyranny.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I remembering discussing Iron Man vs Batman at one point.

Now this would make a LOT more sense to me instead of Batman vs Superman. I have not read any comics and trying to comprehend Batman fighting just boggles my mind. That aside..

Batman vs Ironman seems like it would be a comparable battle. Both billionaires along with both building their own suits (well Ironman a much better engineer than batman but that also aside). This battle at least seems somewhat plausible. Batman vs Superman I cant wrap my head around at all. I realize this was somewhat explained in the other thread, but it still doesn't make any sense.

I do enjoy these comic book movies and find them very entertaining. Still very skeptical about Batman vs Superman. Will be interesting to see how all these movies start pulling together.

 

[FoolKiller]

Now this would make a LOT more sense to me instead of Batman vs Superman. I have not read any comics and trying to comprehend Batman fighting just boggles my mind. That aside..

Batman vs Ironman seems like it would be a comparable battle. Both billionaires along with both building their own suits (well Ironman a much better engineer than batman but that also aside). This battle at least seems somewhat plausible. Batman vs Superman I cant wrap my head around at all. I realize this was somewhat explained in the other thread, but it still doesn't make any sense.

I meant we were debating which movies were better, but yes, it would be a very cool battle.

I do enjoy these comic book movies and find them very entertaining. Still very skeptical about Batman vs Superman. Will be interesting to see how all these movies start pulling together.

The real question is: How does anyone from Earth battle Superman without sporting a chunk of kryptonite?


Comic book trivia: Batman keeps a piece of kryptonite on him at all times...as insurance. Superman gave it to him.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

The real question is: How does anyone from Earth battle Superman without sporting a chunk of kryptonite?


Comic book trivia: Batman keeps a piece of kryptonite on him at all times...as insurance. Superman gave it to him.

Also to answer the original question, I seem to enjoy the Marvel movies more than the DC movies. Even though I did enjoy Man of Steel and Batman The Dark Night. Also enjoyed the Netflix Dardevil series so far.

 

[FoolKiller]

So, I will just drop this here:


SPOILER WARNING: The cliffhanger at the end of Season 2 of Arrow is explained, as well as direct ties into the end of The Flash's first season.

Spoiler

I am going to give DC credit where it is due. I pick relentlessly at their movies. When it comes to TV, DC has got it figured out. Marvel seems on the correct path for their Netflix series as well, but they have tied it in pretty well. I can only hope that when Agents of SHIELD has Skye developing her own team (I'm still expecting Secret Warriors) it will look this good.

 

[05XR8]

Crazy bump, because, after just watching Black Adam.., that’s how anyone from Earth battles Superman without sporting a chunk of kryptonite!

I know I should probably post in the movie review thread, but what we got to see in that movie was some awesome fight scenes. More polished than BvS and JL. Gotta bring up my wife totally enjoying the fight scenes. She mentioned how it was better than current Avenger battles. As she really enjoyed the first Avenger movie. Then, she felt, it died down through the other movies. Black Adam fights were about something at its core(you’ll understand when watching the movie).

The way I saw it, Black Adam(and support cast super heroes), were doing what we want to see Superman do. Heck, it’s like Batman, Wonder Woman and Aquaman, are allowed to fight harder than Superman. Anyway, next time we see Superman, we need to see Superman unload for real.

Last point are the build up of characters. Marvel has that won, but what The Rock put together/restarted through Black Adam, I feel we’ll start seeing even better things. I enjoyed the Suicide Squad reboot and the Peacemaker series. So, that’s also been moving things along for the better. Black Adam is just adding more of that quality over quantity. As in setting future things in motion. I’ve got more to say, but I’ll see if anyone else have their views on the DCU.

 

[persimmontaxi]

Assuming this thread is about the MCU and the DCEU, The Dark Knight remains the best movie by far that any of these powerhouses has yet been able to produce. That's an objective opinion - based solely on its qualities as a story and the message it's been trying to convey. So, I would've ranked it that way, even if Batman wasn't the main character.

Other good movies from the DC pile are, of course, the rest of Nolan's trilogy, The Batman, Joker, Batman v Superman, Justice League (the Snider Cut), and the latest Suicide Squad. Everything else is drivel, IMO.

As for Marvel, I think Sam Raimi's Spiderman 2 will always remain the pinnacle. As for the later years, Marvel is definitely at their best when they go all-out on humor. They simply can't make a good, hard-hitting drama setup. Hence, their best outings are Guardians of the Galaxy 1&2 and Thor: Ragnarok. All others are 'meh' or less than 'meh' IMO...

They've been focusing far, far too much on fan service and the goal to create that comfort zone where youngsters go to a cinema not to get shaken but to experience those same tropes, only this time with better CGI. What Marvel is doing most of the time is the exact opposite of art, IMO, and I think M. Scorsese and F.F. Coppola were right to bash this trend!

 

[UKMikey]

Assuming this thread is about the MCU and the DCEU, The Dark Knight remains the best movie by far that any of these powerhouses has yet been able to produce. That's an objective opinion - based solely on its qualities as a story and the message it's been trying to convey. So, I would've ranked it that way, even if Batman wasn't the main character.

Other good movies from the DC pile are, of course, the rest of Nolan's trilogy, The Batman, Joker, Batman v Superman, Justice League (the Snider Cut), and the latest Suicide Squad. Everything else is drivel, IMO.

As for Marvel, I think Sam Raimi's Spiderman 2 will always remain the pinnacle. As for the later years, Marvel is definitely at their best when they go all-out on humor. They simply can't make a good, hard-hitting drama setup. Hence, their best outings are Guardians of the Galaxy 1&2 and Thor: Ragnarok. All others are 'meh' or less than 'meh' IMO...

They've been focusing far, far too much on fan service and the goal to create that comfort zone where youngsters go to a cinema not to get shaken but to experience those same tropes, only this time with better CGI. What Marvel is doing most of the time is the exact opposite of art, IMO, and I think M. Scorsese and F.F. Coppola were right to bash this trend!

"Objective opinon" seems to me to be an oxymoron, but there was very little comfort zone about Infinity War or Far From Home. There wasn't much comfort zone about Dark Knight Falls or BvS either but for different reasons. For me the MCU was an antidote to the previous Nolan era of superhero movies that were ashamed to be superhero movies. Their movies may not be critical darlings like TDK or Joker but it's ironic your preferred answer to "more of the same" seems to be Batman movie after Batman movie.

Hopefully Gunn and Safran can break this trend and improve the largely abysmal quality of DC's slate of late but as I said on the MCU tv thread it seems like they have a lot of work to do. Snyder's movies seem to lack heart or logical progression and instead focus on the next cool shot or sneery attitude. That to me is fan service, but not to the kind of fan I'd like to hang around with. New Line's latest offering Black Adam certainly looked nicer than most MCU movies but in plot and characterisation wise it's a long way behind.

It's too bad the studio seems to have come under the control of a paymaster who seems to be interested in cutting genuinely good DC TV content like Young Justice and Stargirl and whose stated aim is to use the money saved to make more cheap, unscripted reality shows which are much, much closer to the definition of drivel.

 

[Dave A]

"Objective opinon" seems to me to be an oxymoron, but there was very little comfort zone about Infinity War or Far From Home. There wasn't much comfort zone about Dark Knight Falls or BvS either but for different reasons. For me the MCU was an antidote to the previous Nolan era of superhero movies that were ashamed to be superhero movies. Their movies may not be critical darlings like TDK or Joker but it's ironic your preferred answer to "more of the same" seems to be Batman movie after Batman movie.

Hopefully Gunn and Safran can break this trend and improve the largely abysmal quality of DC's slate of late but as I said elsewhere it seems like they have a lot of work to do. Snyder's movies seem to lack heart or logical progression and instead focus on the next cool shot or sneery attitude. That to me is fan service, but not to the kind of fan I'd like to hang around with. Black Adam certainly looked nicer than most MCU movies but plot and characterisation wise it's a long way behind.

It's too bad the studio seems to have come under the control of a paymaster who seems to be interested in cutting genuinely good DC TV content like Young Justice and Stargirl and whose stated aim is to make more cheap, unscripted reality shows which are much, much closer to the definition of drivel.

I would say both DC and Marvel movies have stagnated and not been very good for a while with the odd exception. Whether you prefer a light hearted superhero romp or one with more emotional gravity attached to it will be a personal choice. I like the more grounded stuff more, but I can accept a more comic-booky approach, but it should still have good character depth and emotional investment to be a good film. Films like Thor 4 were just a headache inducing mess with shallow characters, no depth and loud everything, music, visuals, goats, and it wasn't better for that combination.

DC's best offerings have been standalone affairs or film series not connected to a larger unirverse of superhero movies. They were late to the party on that and tried to rush full steam ahead into the Justice League, which was a shame as there was a lot of potential there, but they didn't plan well enough and what they had planned they were too willing to scrap rather than to fix.

 

[UKMikey]

One swallow doesn't make a summer. There's plenty of room for both franchises to grow and in MCU's case I suspect it's way too soon to write it off after a couple of substandard movies. Knowing the potential of the source material this seems more like a lull than a major directional misstep, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[UKMikey]

Double post. Fat fingers, sorry!

 

[Dave A]

One swallow doesn't make a summer. There's plenty of room for both franchises to grow and in MCU's case I suspect it's way too soon to write it off after a couple of substandard movies. Knowing the potential of the source material this seems more like a lull than a major directional misstep, as far as I'm concerned.

One swallow doesn't, but I've not enjoyed Dr Strange 2, Thor 4, Wakanda Forever wasn't great either and the TV shows have been hit and miss, some good like Loki and then you get the absolute bottom of the barrel below the barrel you thought was at the bottom with She-Hulk.

I've enjoyed plenty of MCU stuff to date, but the current shows and films just aren't resonating with me. I'm not saying that's it, I'm not watching anything else again, just that they're on a poor run at the moment. Of course that can change again, Phase 2 was notably worse than Phase 1 afterall and Phase 3 picked things up again.

 

[UKMikey]

One swallow doesn't, but I've not enjoyed Dr Strange 2, Thor 4, Wakanda Forever wasn't great either and the TV shows have been hit and miss, some good like Loki and then you get the absolute bottom of the barrel below the barrel you thought was at the bottom with She-Hulk.

I've enjoyed plenty of MCU stuff to date, but the current shows and films just aren't resonating with me. I'm not saying that's it, I'm not watching anything else again, just that they're on a poor run at the moment. Of course that can change again, Phase 2 was notably worse than Phase 1 afterall and Phase 3 picked things up again.

Things may not be to your personal taste right now, but judging by how well the She-Hulk series was received here and elsewhere I think you may just have to accept that until they change the name of the franchise to "Dave A Cinematic Universe" your assessment of its overall quality may just be something of an outlier.

Personally I'd agree with the Metacritic scores and say this is more of a 6 or 7/10 phase than a 3 or 4/10 phase but I don't think Feige is going to make any sweeping course corrections until people start expressing dissatisfaction with the project by withholding their bucks.

 

[Dave A]

View attachment 1211879

Things may not be to your personal taste right now, but judging by how well the She-Hulk series was received here and elsewhere I think you may just have to accept that until they change the name of the franchise to "Dave A Cinematic Universe" your assessment of its overall quality may just be something of an outlier. I'd agree with the Metacritic scores and say this is more of a 6 or 7/10 phase than a 3 or 4/10 phase but I don't think Feige is going to make any sweeping course corrections until people stop supporting the project with their bucks.

Oh of course, it's a cash cow and the cash cow will keep rolling and they're trying to appeal to as many people as they can if that includes me or not so be it. But I'm curious about how She-Hulk was reiceved in, I asusme the UK? Becuase that's where I happento be too, and I don't know anyone in person who enjoyed it, I do know one person who didn't think it was as bad as most but still thought it was poor overall.

Additionaly on IMDB it's currently sitting at 5.2/10. Each to thier own and all of that, but it's certinaly not Dave A v the MCU because I dislike She-Hulk and found Phase 4 underwhelming overall. There's 161,000 ratings of She-Hulk on IMDB to give it that average, compare that to Andor which was fantastic and is sitting at 8.4/10 with 75k ratings, so I don't see my view being an outlier here. There's clearly a lot of people who disliked it and I find the manner in which you are defending it curious as we're not questioning life choices here, just how good a few TV shows and films are.

I don't want to dwell on She-Hulk much longer, that's a single show in a very large portfolio of shows and movies, but it doesn't appear to be appealing to nearly as many people in the wider world compared to say Loki or Wandavision which were both much better received. I think Phase 4 was a miss overall personally, and I'm definitely not alone on that when you look at the tv show and films scores on IMDB (not a science of course but a decent general gauge of public response towards a series or film).

Ms Marvel has 6.2/10 from 102k ratings, Wandavision has 7.9 from 332k ratings, Loki has 8.2 from 314k ratings. Going to films, Dr Strange has 7.5/10 from 741k ratings whilst it's sequel has 6.9/10 from 407k ratings, Thor 4 has 6.3/10 from 315k ratings compared to Thor 3 which has 7.9/10 from 749k ratings. So I'm clearly not the outlier here no matter how much you say that must be the case. But as I said, I thought Phase 2 was poor compared to 1 and 3 as well, so we'll see where the next phase takes us.

 

[UKMikey]

Oh of course, it's a cash cow and the cash cow will keep rolling and they're trying to appeal to as many people as they can if that includes me or not so be it. But I'm curious about how She-Hulk was reiceved in, I asusme the UK? Becuase that's where I happento be too, and I don't know anyone in person who enjoyed it, I do know one person who didn't think it was as bad as most but still thought it was poor overall.

Additionaly on IMDB it's currently sitting at 5.2/10. Each to thier own and all of that, but it's certinaly not Dave A v the MCU because I dislike She-Hulk and found Phase 4 underwhelming overall. There's 161,000 ratings of She-Hulk on IMDB to give it that average, compare that to Andor which was fantastic and is sitting at 8.4/10 with 75k ratings, so I don't see my view being an outlier here. There's clearly a lot of people who disliked it and I find the manner in which you are defending it curious as we're not questioning life choices here, just how good a few TV shows and films are.

I don't know a single person in this country who disliked the show until I read your posts. 5/10 suggests a middling show rather than a bottom of the barrel one which a lot of people disliked to me. I'm not defending life choices here either, just trying to guess where the MCU is going next. I had a good time with the GOTG Holiday Special and don't think the MCU's quite done yet. Things could be better but I'm pretty sure they're far from the total failure your earlier posts appear to describe. I'm not a Star Wars fan but having enjoyed Multiverse Of Madness and Far From Home, I'll wait to see whether Fantastic Four, Born Again and X-Men are major disappointments before writing the whole thing off.

 

[Dave A]

I don't know a single person in this country who disliked the show until I read your posts. 5/10 suggests a middling show rather than a bottom of the barrel one which a lot of people disliked to me. I'm not defending life choices here either, just trying to guess where the MCU is going next. I had a good time with the GOTG Holiday Special and don't think the MCU's quite done yet. Things could be better but I'm pretty sure they're far from the total failure your earlier posts appear to describe. I'm not a Star Wars fan but having enjoyed Multiverse Of Madness and Far From Home, I'll wait to see whether Fantastic Four, Born Again and X-Men are major disappointments before writing the whole thing off.

Maybe we simply agree to disagree then, if I rate a movie 5/10 then to me that means I don't like it. 6/10 is poor but had some enjoyable moments/characters, a film or TV show starts to be good with a 7/10 and goes from that was ok at 7 to brilliant at 9, very few films deserve a 10. That's how I view the ratings of course, not everyone else will view them the same as is evident with yourself.