Mclaren, Mercedes, Ilmor......AMG?

[kensei]

Ok...Why does Mercedes use Ilmor for their F1 engine design/production? I know DailmerChrysler owns Ilmor (or a massive share of them) but their track record with F1 engine design is rather sad.

When Mercedes has the proven engine development of AMG inhouse...why don't they use them for F1? AMG is their "racing" arm...right? Evn if Merc built the engine inhouse and AMG simply tuned it that would be better than what they have now.

This morning's news about McMerc needing to run V10s in testing now and the halfa@$ed reasons why are just sad.

McLaren is SO screwed this year. I doubt they will even finish in the top 5, honestly.

 

[Poverty]

Can anyone spread some light onto this topic?

 

[Lee]

Can anyone spread some light onto this topic?

Yeah sure lemme just go find my lamp...

I have no idea to be honest, it would seem like a great idea but maybe manufacturing costs are pretty steep or something...

 

[kensei]

...maybe manufacturing costs are pretty steep or something...

Ya, so...it's F1. Mercedes is a major auto-make...who has a pathetic track record in F1 thus far. I know McLaren and Merc are "partners"...but frankly anything good the team has done in the past 10 years has been more Mclaren than Merc....

Make's use racing, mainly F1, to highlight the brand. What Merc is highlighting now is nothing to be proud of...that is not being able to figure out how to build an engine.

Why isn't AMG involved? They have such a massive record of race success and engine tuning/development....

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Ya, so...it's F1. Mercedes is a major auto-make...who has a pathetic track record in F1 thus far. I know McLaren and Merc are "partners"...but frankly anything good the team has done in the past 10 years has been more Mclaren than Merc....

Make's use racing, mainly F1, to highlight the brand. What Merc is highlighting now is nothing to be proud of...that is not being able to figure out how to build an engine.

Why isn't AMG involved? They have such a massive record of race success and engine tuning/development....

Maybe this is exactly why they use Ilmor. Maybe Merc wants to be able to say "it´wasn´t our engine that failed, it was built by Ilmor, with whom we have very little to do, other than financially".
And to be honest here, Mercs rep is not the best for the roadgoing cars either, due to bad manufacturing and rust. I don´t think they will be in F1 for much longer. A year or two, tops.
Or, if we are lucky, maybe Merc will make use of AMG, once they have decided Ilmor is not up to the task! In a Year or two...

 

[Kylehnat]

Ilmor has been involved in racing for years, building engines for CART and IRL. It makes sense to use them, since they have experience building high-output, high-revving, small-displacement engines. AMG does not (the smallest engine they make is 50% higher displacement than F1 rules allow this year). Starting an F1 engine program at AMG would take several years, and the whole company would have to be expanded. And more likely than not, it would just turn into Ilmore II.

 

[Brett]

Maybe this is exactly why they use Ilmor. Maybe Merc wants to be able to say "it´wasn´t our engine that failed, it was built by Ilmor, with whom we have very little to do, other than financially".

But the team name of the McLaren F1 team is NOT West McLaren Ilmor, it is West McLaren Mercedes. I would say a lot of people do not realize that it is Ilmor that it is building the McLaren. I know myself the majority of the time forget that Ilmor is the one designing and building the engines. So instead of blaming Ilmor, I blame Mercedes.

Ilmor has been involved in racing for years, building engines for CART and IRL. It makes sense to use them, since they have experience building high-output, high-revving, small-displacement engines. AMG does not (the smallest engine they make is 50% higher displacement than F1 rules allow this year). Starting an F1 engine program at AMG would take several years, and the whole company would have to be expanded. And more likely than not, it would just turn into Ilmore II.

Mercedes does have experience building small displacement high-revving engines. How about the 190 Evo that ran in DTM in (I think) earlier 90s? It ran something around a 2.0 liter four cylinder engine that had a pretty high amount of revs.

 

[Blake]

But the team name of the McLaren F1 team is NOT West McLaren Ilmor, it is West McLaren Mercedes.

Sorry to be a smart-ass, but West is no longer the title sponsor, so atm it’s just McLaren Mercedes.

 

[Appie]

its the same

 

[GilesGuthrie]

Mercedes does have experience building small displacement high-revving engines. How about the 190 Evo that ran in DTM in (I think) earlier 90s? It ran something around a 2.0 liter four cylinder engine that had a pretty high amount of revs.

I'm fairly (about 80%) sure that that engine was built by Cosworth.

Ilmor is 100% owned by Mercedes.

Building F1 engines is a highly-specialised task, and just because you can build one form of racing engine does not automatically mean you can build another type. Also, the installation of the engine is highly specialised. Ilmor have recently changed (at McLaren's behest) the mounting strategy for the V8 to optimise it for the MP4-21. This means that there are no V8s compatible with the MP4-20, and there's very little point in trying to fabricate an installation for the off-season testing. It's not the absolute best situation for sure, but it must be the best way for McLaren to proceed at this time.

Historically, Ilmor has been highly susceptible to dropping the ball during change. There have been a number of instances where they've been hobbled by something that outsiders would consider to be relatively minor. However, they do always come back, and an oft-overlooked point in 2005 was that the McLaren was often (usually) fastest in the speed traps. Those with their own preconceptions immediately forgot about power and put this down to aero. In fact, the Mercedes was definitely in the first division of power for most of '05.

 

[Brett]

Sorry to be a smart-ass, but West is no longer the title sponsor, so atm it’s just McLaren Mercedes.

Darn you! :Shakes Fist: That's not the point though. The team name is still not McLaren Ilmor, it is McLaren Mercedes. I just figured that the team would still be West McLaren Mercedes until next year when Vodafone takes over.

I'm fairly (about 80%) sure that that engine was built by Cosworth.

Ilmor is 100% owned by Mercedes.

Historically, Ilmor has been highly susceptible to dropping the ball during change. There have been a number of instances where they've been hobbled by something that outsiders would consider to be relatively minor. However, they do always come back, and an oft-overlooked point in 2005 was that the McLaren was often (usually) fastest in the speed traps. Those with their own preconceptions immediately forgot about power and put this down to aero. In fact, the Mercedes was definitely in the first division of power for most of '05.

That's fine on the engine being built by Cosworth, but Mercedes should be getting on Ilmor case a little harder. It does not reflect very well on Mercedes and their image. Not too mention the fact that Ilmor's poor job on producing a reliable car has cost the McLaren team the shot of winning championships.

The Ilmor engine may have been in the top division of producing power last year, but the sacrifice of reliability is not really something that is going to work very well. Also with reports of every V8 being tested having gone kaboom, it is starting to look like McLaren is going to have another year of blown up engines.

 

[Blake]

Not too mention the fact that Ilmor's poor job on producing a reliable car has cost the McLaren team the shot of winning championships.

Yes, and on that note, I think this is very rich comming from Mario Illien. 👎

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Yes, and on that note, I think this is very rich comming from Mario Illien. 👎

From his point of view, he´s right, I´m sure, but as for the rest of us? I blame the engines...

 

[Brett]

From his point of view, he´s right, I´m sure, but as for the rest of us? I blame the engines...

"Räikkönen retired three times while leading the race, but it was never down to engine problems. Losing the constructors' championship was down to Montoya who in my opinion should have brought home more points win the championship,"

This is the key quote of the link. It says Kimi retired three times while leading a race. It does not say anything qualifying or when Kimi was trying to make his way through the field, only when leading a race.

 

[The Internet]

So we've determined that Ilmor needs to make a reliable engine, McLaren needs to make a reliable drivetrain, and JPM needs to stop cutting off/running into backmarkers/JV and playing tennis.

 

[McLaren]

Maybe Mercedes doesn't use AMG, because Mercedes isn't the one who builds the cars.

 

[Brett]

So we've determined that Ilmor needs to make a reliable engine, McLaren needs to make a reliable drivetrain, and JPM needs to stop cutting off/running into backmarkers/JV and playing tennis.

Yep, that is pretty much it so far.

 

[Blake]

Link:

Contrary to popular belief, Ilmor Engineering no longer builds Formula 1 engines for Mercedes-Benz. Last summer Ilmor changed its name to Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd. Soon afterwards Ilmor founder Mario Illien started a new company called Ilmor with members of the original Ilmor's special project group.

 

[TheCracker]

I'm fairly (about 80%) sure that that engine was built by Cosworth.

Ilmor is 100% owned by Mercedes.

Building F1 engines is a highly-specialised task, and just because you can build one form of racing engine does not automatically mean you can build another type. Also, the installation of the engine is highly specialised. Ilmor have recently changed (at McLaren's behest) the mounting strategy for the V8 to optimise it for the MP4-21. This means that there are no V8s compatible with the MP4-20, and there's very little point in trying to fabricate an installation for the off-season testing. It's not the absolute best situation for sure, but it must be the best way for McLaren to proceed at this time.

Historically, Ilmor has been highly susceptible to dropping the ball during change. There have been a number of instances where they've been hobbled by something that outsiders would consider to be relatively minor. However, they do always come back, and an oft-overlooked point in 2005 was that the McLaren was often (usually) fastest in the speed traps. Those with their own preconceptions immediately forgot about power and put this down to aero. In fact, the Mercedes was definitely in the first division of power for most of '05.

Cosworth did design the four-pot Merc 190 engine (or modified it in the same way that they did the old pinto engine for the Sierra Cossie)

Didn't Ilmor build the ultra successful merc engines that powered Mika to a couple of world championships?

 

[Brett]

Link:

Good information.