Mercedes F1 - Playing by the rules?

  • Thread starter Thread starter FlyingFox
  • 23 comments
  • 1,748 views
Messages
3,372
United Kingdom
St Helens. MSY
Messages
FlyingFox_85
Taken from Sky Sports F1 site.

The secret of Mercedes' current domination of F1's new turbo era has been made public after Sky Sports F1's Mark Hughes revealed intricate details of how the Silver Arrows are packaging the hitherto-dominant W05.

Sky F1 analyst Hughes has learnt that, in a highly complicated engineering feat, the team have successfully packaged their turbine and air compressor at either end of the W05's engine.
The innovative design - which, like the best ideas, sounds simple, is vastly complex and brilliantly effective - is believed to have been conceived over two years ago.

The revelation is also the best explanation yet for why the W05 has so far proved unbeatable in 2014, with Nico Rosberg's cruise to victory in Australia followed by Lewis Hamilton scoring F1's version of a hat-trick - pole position, the fastest lap of the race and victory - in Malaysia on Sunday.
Hughes has learnt that the Brackley team's ties with Mercedes High Performance Engines gave them a critical headstart at the start of F1's new turbo age.

Looking to achieve the most aerodynamically efficient car possible, the Mercedes team had significant influence over power unit design created at the German manufacturer's engine base in Brixworth.
Writing in Motorsport magazine, Hughes discloses that Mercedes' breakthrough 'innovation is having the turbo's compressor at one end of the engine and the turbine at the other, linked by a long shaft through the vee of the engine'.

The 'trick turbo layout' triggers a series of critical performance benefits. As the air is not travelling through as much pipework, a reduction in turbo lag means less power needs to be be harvested from the car's ERS unit to keep the turbine spooled off throttle. That in turn improves the efficiency of the car, with more power reserved for performance gain and less fuel consequentially used up.
Mercedes' customer teams all have the same advantage. However, because McLaren, Williams and Force India only took delivery of their power units relatively recently, they have had less time to work the layout into their respective car designs.

Hamilton's biggest chance
But for the works outfit, the benefits of the W05's innovative layout has proved multifaceted.
With the compressor further away from the turbine - which is spun by hot exhaust gases - the W05 has a smaller intercooler, meaning Mercedes are running with smaller sidepods which boost aerodynamic performance.

Furthermore, with the compressor in front of the engine, Mercedes have also moved their car's gearbox forward, improving its centre of gravity and therefore, in theory, its handling.
But while Mercedes' rivals are aware of the championship leaders' secret, they are essentially powerless to react. The engines for 2014 are now in lock-down, with February 28 marking the agreed homologation date by which all the teams had to register their design for the new season with the governing body, the FIA.

"We're talking about 2014's double diffuser with the exception that you can't copy it this year," Hughes said during Sky F1's live coverage of the Bahrain GP.
"Its impact is maybe not quite as big as active-ride, but it's certainly a major technical advantage that they've engineered themselves for the rest of the season."

The Mercedes power unit has been widely credited as being the critical performance differential in their victorious start to the new season. Red Bull boss Christian Horner claimed in Malaysia that his team was one second slower along the straights, with trackside observers estimating that the Mercedes unit boasts anything between 50 and 70 extra horsepower over the rest of the field.

This begs the question; if the ERS motor connected to the front half of the turbine to harvest energy can also be used to spool up the turbo to eliminate turbo lag, would this not be classed as a supercharger as the turbine is being driven at times from an external source and not exclusively by the exhaust gasses?
 
Given that this information will not be news to the other teams (They find out what each other are doing long before the press does) I doubt there is any real question of it's legality. If there was, there would be an official protest by now.
 
No. It isn't being driven by the crank.
Besides all the turbos run like that. The ERS is used to keep the turbo from dropping off throttle and once the throttle is back on the exhaust gasses drive it. Mercedes is no different in that regard.
 
It was discussed during the weekend that all Mercedes powered teams have this configuration. It's a Mercedes engine design, not a Mercedes F1 team thing.

First thing is first, Mclaren should be very dissapointed in their results so far.

Secondly with all Merc enigned teams perfecting the design over time, it seems their advantage will only increase.
 
See, this is the kind of engineering brilliance that should be encouraged.

The problem is that the other engine manufacturers can't compete because of the stupid engine freeze. The FIA froze the engine designs one or two years too early I think, if they are going to have an engine freeze at all. I can see why they have the engine freeze, they don't want the cars to be too fast, but freezing the engines in the first year of the new engine formula is just stupid I think. :lol:
 
I don't like the engine freeze either, but it "reduces costs". If anything, they should only be allowed to further develop the engines for purposes of being more economical, but teams would find loopholes to that. On the other hand, I'm ok with it because it means there's no silly "Balance of Power" adjustments, and teams have to change aerodynamics to make up for any shortcomings of their engine.

Mercedes hit it perfectly with their engines, while Renault's engine is the weakest of the 3 current manufacturers. Will be interesting to see how good the Honda engine is next year, and possibly Ford's as well if the rumors of that being the engine for the Haas team come to fruition.
 
I can see why they have the engine freeze, they don't want the cars to be too fast, but freezing the engines in the first year of the new engine formula is just stupid I think.
They don't want it to turn into a spending war.

Also, these are extremely complex engines. An early freeze gets everyone to the point where they have to have the same thing, and nobody feels the pressure of constant development. Look at Renault - they need time to figure out what is wrong, but with free development, they could make things worse for themselves and waste billions.
 
An early freeze gets everyone to the point where they have to have the same thing

Clearly Ferrari and Renault don't.
A freeze on major config maybe, but not development of what you have got established.


and waste billions
That's a bit dramatic mate.:rolleyes:
 
Clearly Ferrari and Renault don't.
They have a Power Unit that consists of five parts that all work in unison. Which is more than what Renault had in pre-season testing.

Remember, it was Renault who pushed for these engine regulations. They insisted the engines had to be smaller and road-car relevant. If Mercedes started development sooner (and spent more money) and have been rewarded with a superior engine, then full credit to them. The need for a new formula was first floated in 2009, and the regulations published in 2011.
 
So are the other teams using the Merc engine have the same configuration? (smaller side pods, narrower rear? )

As far as I know, no. The engine was built and delivered to the other teams before Mercedes came up with this idea so I can only imagine that other Mercedes powered teams will follow this configuration.
 
Mercedes Benz MUST supply the same engine layout to all teams, factory or customer run. The difference is that the Mercedes team developed the car knowing what the engine would be. McLaren, Force India and Williams would all have been given details (such as mounting points and weight) but not specifics. The first they will know of the turbo placement is when the units got delivered at the end of last year. By then it is too late...

Mercedes advantage is such because the entire car is designed with the specifics in mind. Slimmer bodywork over the engine, smaller sidepods, better radiator configuration, better gearbox design (lower, more central centre of gravity). The other teams will need to make significant changes to better suit the car to the engine, most of which are not allowed within the rules.

My question is whether Honda may be able to copy the design. The Ferrari and Renault power units are homologated, but when does the Honda design have to be development locked?

Final point - a team having a massive advantage like Mercedes does not automatically mean they are not playing to the rules. Seems to be the way nowadays that we are looking for someone to be breaking the rules rather than innovative.

Ferrari are actually more borderline than Mercedes with engine design, as they haven't put a specific ballistic cover over the turbo like Mercedes and Renault have. It's a grey area in the rules that states that if a failure occurs, the failed parts must be contained within a ballistic cover. Ferrari's turbo is exposed, and instead claim that the engine cover itself is what means they are complying to the rules. The cover is a weight saving of around 3kg.
 
Last edited:
Taken from Sky Sports F1 site.

The secret of Mercedes' current domination of F1's new turbo era has been made public after Sky Sports F1's Mark Hughes revealed intricate details of how the Silver Arrows are packaging the hitherto-dominant W05.

Sky F1 analyst Hughes has learnt that, in a highly complicated engineering feat, the team have successfully packaged their turbine and air compressor at either end of the W05's engine.
The innovative design - which, like the best ideas, sounds simple, is vastly complex and brilliantly effective - is believed to have been conceived over two years ago.

The revelation is also the best explanation yet for why the W05 has so far proved unbeatable in 2014, with Nico Rosberg's cruise to victory in Australia followed by Lewis Hamilton scoring F1's version of a hat-trick - pole position, the fastest lap of the race and victory - in Malaysia on Sunday.
Hughes has learnt that the Brackley team's ties with Mercedes High Performance Engines gave them a critical headstart at the start of F1's new turbo age.

Looking to achieve the most aerodynamically efficient car possible, the Mercedes team had significant influence over power unit design created at the German manufacturer's engine base in Brixworth.

Writing in Motorsport magazine, Hughes discloses that Mercedes' breakthrough 'innovation is having the turbo's compressor at one end of the engine and the turbine at the other, linked by a long shaft through the vee of the engine'.

The 'trick turbo layout' triggers a series of critical performance benefits. As the air is not travelling through as much pipework, a reduction in turbo lag means less power needs to be be harvested from the car's ERS unit to keep the turbine spooled off throttle. That in turn improves the efficiency of the car, with more power reserved for performance gain and less fuel consequentially used up.
Mercedes' customer teams all have the same advantage. However, because McLaren, Williams and Force India only took delivery of their power units relatively recently, they have had less time to work the layout into their respective car designs.

Hamilton's biggest chance
But for the works outfit, the benefits of the W05's innovative layout has proved multifaceted.
With the compressor further away from the turbine - which is spun by hot exhaust gases - the W05 has a smaller intercooler, meaning Mercedes are running with smaller sidepods which boost aerodynamic performance.

Furthermore, with the compressor in front of the engine, Mercedes have also moved their car's gearbox forward, improving its centre of gravity and therefore, in theory, its handling.
But while Mercedes' rivals are aware of the championship leaders' secret, they are essentially powerless to react. The engines for 2014 are now in lock-down, with February 28 marking the agreed homologation date by which all the teams had to register their design for the new season with the governing body, the FIA.

"We're talking about 2014's double diffuser with the exception that you can't copy it this year," Hughes said during Sky F1's live coverage of the Bahrain GP.
"Its impact is maybe not quite as big as active-ride, but it's certainly a major technical advantage that they've engineered themselves for the rest of the season."

The Mercedes power unit has been widely credited as being the critical performance differential in their victorious start to the new season. Red Bull boss Christian Horner claimed in Malaysia that his team was one second slower along the straights, with trackside observers estimating that the Mercedes unit boasts anything between 50 and 70 extra horsepower over the rest of the field.

This begs the question; if the ERS motor connected to the front half of the turbine to harvest energy can also be used to spool up the turbo to eliminate turbo lag, would this not be classed as a supercharger as the turbine is being driven at times from an external source and not exclusively by the exhaust gasses?

First off it's not a supercharger and even with the external help that isn't how superchargers work so...no it's an innovative turbo just like VNT/VGT and HTT. This is what F1 is about innovation. I was waiting for someone to post this or making a comment in the F1 threads regarding the dominant winner. People should have prepared for this like Mercedes warned back in 2012 that they were building for 2014 and Ferrari said the same, but we see who did the better job.

And this is why I believe that RBR actually knew good and well that their fuel flow was faulty and giving them extra power and thus they kept going. Because they didn't have any other chance of keeping up with Mercedes GP. This is also why they're irritated with Renault being behind the ball on this.

I think I'll trust these guys:

Formula 1
With turbochargers set to re-enter Formula 1 in 2014, teams are working with Honeywell to optimize not just the power benefits of engine boosting but to exploit the potential to recover wasted energy by marrying the turbo to electric motors and generators. This concept, tying in closely with industry-wide interest in energy efficiency, is also under close consideration by the governing body of the Le Mans Series.

Honeywell’s innovation in racing has led to the development of turbochargers that optimize power, performance and reliability. This focus on succeeding through technology also drives its partnerships with auto manufacturers, delivering turbo solutions that save fuel and reduce emissions without compromising engine performance.
 
Last edited:
Mercedes Benz MUST supply the same engine layout to all teams, factory or customer run. The difference is that the Mercedes team developed the car knowing what the engine would be. McLaren, Force India and Williams would all have been given details (such as mounting points and weight) but not specifics. The first they will know of the turbo placement is when the units got delivered at the end of last year. By then it is too late...
McLaren, FI and Williams will be able to develop their aero and cooling packages to fit better around the Merc engine. The Renault runners are up the creek without a paddle because of the engine freeze. They cant improve what is painfully apparent as their weak point. They are at a huge disadvantage until the engines un-freeze or the formula changes again. Unless they can sell improvements as a reliability upgrade.
 
None of the other teams have made even the slightest noise that they don't think the Merc is legal. They have all the motivation in the world to try and find something illegal about it, and all the expertise in the world available to do so, but three races in and not a peep.

The Mercedes is just a better car. Sorry, sometimes it happens. They designed a good car, and now they're reaping the benefits.
 
And Mercedes have sunk years and hundreds of millions of dollars into developing the engine. There is no way they would risk wasting all of that with an illegal engine configurationm

Certainly, I imagine they were very, very careful about clearing it with the FIA before they went anywhere near building the thing.
 
I will see them this November at COTA.

Kinda glad I was able to see them live the past 2 years because people are saying these new engines dont sound nearly as good as the old ones.

They have a contractual requirement to supply them the best engines possible. They can't just fob them off with duds because the deal is coming to an end.

Yeah, but the factory team always has an advantage no matter what way you put it.

Mclaren used to be the flagship mercedes team.
 
Mercedes aren't in F1 to tootle about, Germans are too sensible. Their insistence that their engine team favour the works team goes back quite some way and was, supposedly, the reason the McLaren re-courted Honda when it was clear they would no longer be the Mercedes "A" Team.

I saw Totenwulf saying that without the new reg changes Mercedes wouldn't be in F1 - they see the new tech as the pinnacle of future road-auto development. They're in a position to make a bit of hay while Red Bull are thrashing around outside Bernie's motorhome but it also makes perfect sense.

Germans* are very deep people, they're super-calibrated engineers, very exact and correct but also feel a huge amount of social responsibility to each other and the planet. I think the weight of that image will actually help F1 to survive a season where the two "noisiest" teams (Fez'n'Bull) are talking the sport down in favour of some rules they can win with.

*Potentially generalising
 
Last edited:
Back