Money vs Talent?

[Wilbur]

There are a few people that come to mind that have top rides who some don't think need to be there or have no talent (we know they have talent but not to the level where they should).

The two that really seem to come up alot as of late are Travis Pastrana and Danica Patrick.

TP is improving and seems to actually be doing decent considering he is having to relearn everything he knows as far as how to drive a car fast. I'm hard to call him out on just using his backing to get a ride without really having the talent to move forward. Overall I don't really expect him to blow anyone out of the water but it wouldn't shock me to see a win or two (with some luck possibly) but he has some strong runs at place but either bad luck or a rookie style mistake (that even the top guys make). One thing you don't see him doing is blaming anyone else for a wreck or mistake and he pretty much earned his money the hard way by actually winning or doing well.

Danica on the other hand can't even really keep up with the field, I've heard every excuse but the fact to me is her talent level isn't ever going to grow to where it needs to be to be fast. I don't have any idea if it's more of she is scared to some degree because cars move alot and don't handle super well compared to Indy, but she never really backed up much there either. I won't go out and bash her as far as not having any talent because there are worse drivers.

Another spin on this is family backing really is weird game to play because I would help my kid out til the day I die with their passion, so if that ment I could fund their ride then no big deal. People fail to understand that alot of that money goes through all the teams running out of that stable so it could be the different between finishing 30th or 15th based on resources available.

 

[Earth]

This is interesting, but Im not quite sure what you're trying to discuss

 

[Wilbur]

This is interesting, but Im not quite sure what you're trying to discuss

More or less folks have money to race with lack of talent to belong there.

 

[McLaren]

I'm trying to figure out why Pastrana is in this equation of money vs. talent.

The guy has proven he knows how to drive a car fast through some Rally America championships. And he has considerable success in Motocross so it's not like the team that signed him just picked up a nobody who had a fat checkbook. I think it's just a case of adjusting since this is what, his first full season as driver in the Nationwide series?

 

[Wilbur]

I'm trying to figure out why Pastrana is in this equation of money vs. talent.

The guy has proven he knows how to drive a car fast through some Rally America championships. And he has considerable success in Motocross so it's not like the team that signed him just picked up a nobody who had a fat checkbook. I think it's just a case of adjusting since this is what, his first full season as driver in the Nationwide series?

I've heard alot lately about him not being very good because people fail to actually know much about his rally success since RA isn't in the news at all.

There are a few others nascar related that come up from Menard, Scott, Wallace, Gaughan, Townley but out of all of those everyone has improved who still has a ride. Even with a check, you aren't going to be given unlimited rides without some results.

 

[McLaren]

I'm not sure what people are expecting from him. He's 14th according to their site out of a 100 names in the standings. Sounds like he's doing ok, esp. for running in a series that's really just the equivalent of the GP2 series to Formula 1.

And looking at those same standings, he's only 2 places behind Nelson Piquet Jr., a former Formula 1 driver & fairly successful GP2 driver.

 

[Tornado]

Wasn't Pastrana invited to RoC a couple times too?

 

[niky]

To get money, first you have to be good. The only problem is that said money is unevenly distributed. Which is why you might see a 17 year old Russian get a chance at a drive in F1, but not a 17 year old Albanian.

But while money can open up doors, you still need to perform to stay where you are. Patrick, for example, may not be doing so hot this season, but there are some big names down in the table around her, and they're not driving terrible cars. We'll see how it goes by the end of the season. I've always been of the opinion that she isn't untalented... merely overexposed.

Then again, media image is another KPI for drivers, nowadays, particularly since motorsports run on ad money. Which is why you'll see people like a past-his-prime Michael Schumacher get a shot at driving in F1 at a top team instead of an up-and-coming GP2 driver.

 

[Wilbur]

Wasn't Pastrana invited to RoC a couple times too?

Yes but after I think both Scott Speed/Jimmie Johnson had issues attending.

 

[lbsf1]

You need at least abit of both, you can be hugely skilled however without money you will not progress. However if you have lots of money you only need to be reasonably skilled.

 

[Carbonox]

I'm not sure what people are expecting from him. He's 14th according to their site out of a 100 names in the standings. Sounds like he's doing ok, esp. for running in a series that's really just the equivalent of the GP2 series to Formula 1.

And looking at those same standings, he's only 2 places behind Nelson Piquet Jr., a former Formula 1 driver & fairly successful GP2 driver.

You should remember that out of those 100 drivers, only 20 or so are doing a full-time campaign.

But while money can open up doors, you still need to perform to stay where you are. Patrick, for example, may not be doing so hot this season, but there are some big names down in the table around her, and they're not driving terrible cars. We'll see how it goes by the end of the season. I've always been of the opinion that she isn't untalented... merely overexposed.

Who are you referring to? All the people around Patrick in the standings are driving cars that are about two tiers below hers.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I'm not sure what people are expecting from him. He's 14th according to their site out of a 100 names in the standings. Sounds like he's doing ok, esp. for running in a series that's really just the equivalent of the GP2 series to Formula 1.

And looking at those same standings, he's only 2 places behind Nelson Piquet Jr., a former Formula 1 driver & fairly successful GP2 driver.

...So let me get this straight Open wheel drivers that come to Stock Car racing in American are the paragon of what aspiring drivers should race to be? Even though time and time again it has shown that just because you were fast in an open wheel car (I'd question you on Piquet Jr.) doesn't mean anything to Nascar. JPM has pretty good equipment and he can be fast at times but isn't anything to write home about compared to his other racing ventures.

I am one of those that thinks Pastrana is an average driver, and I'd say more of an entertainer than racer. At the same time I wouldn't put him in the same group as Patrick ever...

 

[Speedster7]

Also think about Robin Frijins in GP2, a proven winner who lost his race seat because of lack of funds... I think in high level Motorsport, money is more important than talent, because without money talent has an even smaller chance of being noticed by anyone important...

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Also think about Robin Frijins in GP2, a proven winner who lost his race seat because of lack of funds... I think in high level Motorsport, money is more important than talent, because without money talent has an even smaller chance of being noticed by anyone important...

To be honest I don't think the model works, I think greed is quicker payout than confidence, to most teams. If more people were willing to try a driver with little backing but the raw pace to be at the top, surely that would bring sponsors to the team. However, the safe bet is running a guy that has money to bring at the table no matter if it took him four years to win a GP2 title, or if the guy finished 6th in GP2. Another issue (which we saw with Caterham and Sauber) is that teams don't seem to make their PR departments work. I say this because instead of teams doing what teams should be doing like building, testing, and acquiring sponsers and having drivers drive the car to success. They rather have drivers do the PR work for them.

It's a win win situation, look at McLaren for example. Perez is quick and showed it at Sauber but this year McLaren doesn't have the car, and will probably lose money end of this year because of a low WCC standing but probably not have too much to worry about due to a paid driver.

 

[Bo]

I hate this kind of thing, I think Pastrana and Patrick can be good so I do not know why they have been brought up here, but the Frijns case made me feel sick. I have watched him through World Series and he was incredible, I find it so sad and shocking that motorsport has come to this. I used to get professionally tutored in karting, they saw I had a lot of potential and skill and I was told this, so obviously the next step would be to go racing. However, we have never had anywhere near the amount of money required to go racing, so that was out of the question. This was four years ago, and I am now 14, and my dream of racing seems to be getting delayed further and further. I will never give in, because I know I can get there, and my parents have promised me I will end up racing one day.

 

[Wilbur]

I hate this kind of thing, I think Pastrana and Patrick can be good so I do not know why they have been brought up here, but the Frijns case made me feel sick. I have watched him through World Series and he was incredible, I find it so sad and shocking that motorsport has come to this. I used to get professionally tutored in karting, they saw I had a lot of potential and skill and I was told this, so obviously the next step would be to go racing. However, we have never had anywhere near the amount of money required to go racing, so that was out of the question. This was four years ago, and I am now 14, and my dream of racing seems to be getting delayed further and further. I will never give in, because I know I can get there, and my parents have promised me I will end up racing one day.

At what year does talent need to show to prove the money is worth it? Let's take Paul Menard who has one win in Cup, he was at DEI during their falling out year, moved to Yates and closed shop. RPM was down hill too and now since joining RCR has show improvements yearly, but gets bad wrap because of family money,

How many times have top series changed cars to learn to adapt especially with the COT. So it's also something I take into the picture too. Granted some folks with money never run upfront no matter what car or track they are in.

We aren't talking about being young and getting started as that's another ballgame all together.

 

[McLaren]

You should remember that out of those 100 drivers, only 20 or so are doing a full-time campaign.

Did not know that.

...So let me get this straight Open wheel drivers that come to Stock Car racing in American are the paragon of what aspiring drivers should race to be? Even though time and time again it has shown that just because you were fast in an open wheel car (I'd question you on Piquet Jr.) doesn't mean anything to Nascar. JPM has pretty good equipment and he can be fast at times but isn't anything to write home about compared to his other racing ventures.

Not at all. What I'm saying is how can Pastrana be brought in an question of not having the talent to keep up in the sport if he's still managing to stay 2 places behind in the standings to a former F1 driver & successful GP2 driver. If Pastrana can't be given credit for that, then Piquet Jr. should be brought in as an example of money vs. talent as well.

Yes, being fast in open wheel cars doesn't mean much elsewhere, but of the 2 men, Piquet Jr. has considerable more experience in 4-wheel racing than Pastrana by miles, so Pastrana definitely has the talent needed for the sport to be doing just as well.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Did not know that.

Not at all. What I'm saying is how can Pastrana be brought in an question of not having the talent to keep up in the sport if he's still managing to stay 2 places behind in the standings to a former F1 driver & successful GP2 driver. If Pastrana can't be given credit for that, then Piquet Jr. should be brought in as an example of money vs. talent as well.

I already consider Piquet one of those money vs. talent guys, that was never out of the question. If this was GP2 or F1 and Pastrana was picked up and had comparable standings to Piquet Jr, I'd understand the comparison. However, NASCAR vs Formula 1 is night and day and keeping up with Piquet who hasn't been more than average isn't anything super amazing, I'd say it is somewhat good because Piquet has been doing it longer than Pastrana.

Yes, being fast in open wheel cars doesn't mean much elsewhere, but of the 2 men, Piquet Jr. has considerable more experience in 4-wheel racing than Pastrana by miles, so Pastrana definitely has the talent needed for the sport to be doing just as well.

Once again, if it were that black and white then Nelson would have come up to speed much faster. You could be a F1 WDC and still struggle to find pace and ability in a Stock Car on ovals, the talent needed is quite different. Like I said I give credit to Pastrana based on merit of Piquet's NASCAR experience only cause that's really all you can factor.

I think Pastrana is alright but I don't see him being more than mid-tier driver. I most definitely wouldn't compare him to Danica and those defending her pace need to reevaluate what they're saying and look at what she's done before Sprint Cup, meaning other Stock cars.

 

[Bo]

I think one thing that hasn't really helped Danica is moving to Cup this year, a few seasons of Nationwide would have allowed her to get at least 1 win and get settled in with stock cars. I think she has talent and she has showed it on numerous occasions, like Road America last year, but we all remember what happened in that race...