MR2 setup

[Drift260Z]

hey. I've just recently made a setup for an MR2 tuned at the Nurburgring. I'm new to tuning, but not to the GT4. I've been playing the GT series for the past couple of years now (since GT3). I don't have a lot of tuned cars in my garage. I mainly just use stock cars, and improve my driving by driving around the cars' weakness. I'm looking to hear some responses on how you though the car was. also, I'd like to get some feedback on what you thought the car was doing through the corner. I tried to keep the car set-up medium stiff so it would be compliant enough to handle the bumpy surface of the track without it turning into a Rolls Royce into the corners.

car: Toyota MR2 GT-S '97
modifications: everything except nitrous (includes oil change, super soft racing slicks, and a wing)

tuning:
brakes: Front 18/Rear 5
transmission: 13 auto setting
Downforce: Front 30/Rear 30
LSD: IT 24/Accel 29/Decel 40
ballast: weight 15/balance -20

suspension:
spring rates: Front 4.0/Rear 6.7
ride height: Front 92/Rear 95
damper (bound): Front 4/Rear 10
damper (rebound): Front 2/Rear 5
camber: Front 3.5/Rear 2.3
toe angle: Front -3/Rear 1
stabilizers: Front 4/Rear 5



I was managed to run a laptime of 6:31.272 with this setup before my concentration fell to pieces. it was a joy to drive, but it still suffers from snap oversteer. but really, it was down to driver error. if I dialed in too much understeer, it would kill the turn-in which I prefer. so I just did my best to drive smoother. it's a pretty neutral setup that allows you to drive it a variety of ways, but it makes you mind your inputs. if you don't treat it right it will bite you.

imo, the car has great turn-in, maybe accompanied by turn-in oversteer. it is stable through the apex, and on it's way to exit, it blends from a neutral condition to mild understeer. the car is unstable under braking, so I get most of my braking done in a straight line, or with very smooth trail braking, but it is an MR platform, so that is expected. I tried my best to make it more stable when braking, but I couldn't go too far because I would lose my turn-in. I feel the car has responsive handling without being too unstable. that might be because of the relativly low spring rates and high damper bound setting in the rear. even though I tuned this specifically for the 'Ring, I feel this is a good setup for most of the tracks, but I haven't tried it yet because my concentration was waning after testing for so long. I would love to hear your opinions and critisicm because this is the first time tuning a car, and I want to learn how to do it properly. thank you.


rock.

 

[sucahyo]

I recently tried MR2, I definitely recommend using 1/10 1/10 or 1/1 10/10 damper (lower front bound, higher rear rebound) to cure throttle lift off oversteer. This car need high concentration when driving, although tuning do reduce the concentration level required.

I feel the car has a lot of oversteer at lift off throttle, slight understeer at push throttle, and moderate understeer at mid corner.

I see that your tuning also try to reduce throttle lift off oversteer. atleast the brake give me big hint .


This is my story for MR2:
I happen to have another chance to play GT4. This time I have to help my relative to win the beginner, roadster convertible race in Infineon. His car is lighly tuned MR2 (maybe spider). His problem is his car is slow on corner.

So, it is my chance to "show off" my skill. It doesn't need a lap to show my horrible handling . At least I can keep it on the road, maybe because his controller is better than what I used to. The car feel understeer at push throttle, and plenty oversteer at lift throttle.

I don't have much time, so I don't take this car to freerun mode, I just continue hitting retry again. It's a good thing that he already purchased FC suspension, so I can tune my now favorite part, stabilizer. I use my standard initial setting, then use 1/7 stabilizer hoping this will improve cornering ability, then 1/1 10/10 damper hoping to make on power more oversteer than off power, and lastly midrange ride height.

The car handle better now, it can out corner all the enemy if I can make a good corner entry (they all go so much wider, esp. 206 ). But the oversteer at throttle lift off still a problem, I spin at the second lap just after beating those fast red car (MX5?). So I try to do quick fix, using max front spring rate (rear is min) hoping it will make the front loose grip more during lift off throttle and some other changes (maybe ride height). The result is the opposite, the oversteer during throttle lift off is worse. The car want to spin on almost every corner.

So, I revert all back and apply the first tuning again. I finally can win the race after driving with more carefull control (release turn button before I lift off throttle).

 

[stig_beater]

I find that to make a neutral handling car you have to adjust the suspension acording to the weight distribution to keep roll where you want it. For example when I tune a civic the dampers and springs in the front are much stiffer then the rear. The idea behind this is that the front tires will both stay in contact with the road during hard cornering, but since the rear is softer one tire is allowed to leave the road giving you rear end rotation to cancel front wheel drive understeer both on and off power. You also have to realize that setting the springs on a car to 10 and 10 (just for reference) will not make the front and the back equally sprung. For a civic the front will be softer then the rear because there is more weight over the front and not the rear. So to fool the car into thinking it has a 50/50 weight distribution you adjust the springs and dampers accordingly. My civic runs 11.5 Fr. and 5.5 Rr. springs for the Ring. You having a MR layout car will have the oppisite setup but since your car is overall heavier you will need to raise the overall rate up a little. My NSX-R which is close in weight runs a 8.5 Fr. and 13.5 rear rate. The dampers are set 3 bound and 7 rebound in Fr. and 5 bound and 10 rebound in the rear. The NSX in a couple of laps almost managed to run under 6 min. on R3 tires. Try that setup once. I hope you get what I was trying to say. I race cars in real life so I know what I'm talking about here.

 

[Drift260Z]

I find that to make a neutral handling car you have to adjust the suspension acording to the weight distribution to keep roll where you want it. For example when I tune a civic the dampers and springs in the front are much stiffer then the rear. The idea behind this is that the front tires will both stay in contact with the road during hard cornering, but since the rear is softer one tire is allowed to leave the road giving you rear end rotation to cancel front wheel drive understeer both on and off power. You also have to realize that setting the springs on a car to 10 and 10 (just for reference) will not make the front and the back equally sprung. For a civic the front will be softer then the rear because there is more weight over the front and not the rear. So to fool the car into thinking it has a 50/50 weight distribution you adjust the springs and dampers accordingly. My civic runs 11.5 Fr. and 5.5 Rr. springs for the Ring. You having a MR layout car will have the oppisite setup but since your car is overall heavier you will need to raise the overall rate up a little. My NSX-R which is close in weight runs a 8.5 Fr. and 13.5 rear rate. The dampers are set 3 bound and 7 rebound in Fr. and 5 bound and 10 rebound in the rear. The NSX in a couple of laps almost managed to run under 6 min. on R3 tires. Try that setup once. I hope you get what I was trying to say. I race cars in real life so I know what I'm talking about here.

neat. what do you race? I race karts in real life, so I don't know much about "real suspension" settings aside from my limited autocross experience. at least I could tell that setting the fronts softer than the rear to counter the extra weight in the back was the proper thing to do. I was never really sure what to do with the dampers. I'm kinda lost when it comes to adjusting the bound and rebound. other than that, what did you think of the setup? also, what should I do with the stablizer bar settings and ride height settings?


rock.

 

[stig_beater]

Dampers are easy enough to understand if you try to keep things simple. The bound is the compression stroke. On the compresion stroke you want the car to be able to absorb all the bumps on the road. Setting the bound to low will make the car react slower upon corner entry. To stiff it will not absorb bumps. The rebound stroke is where the shock forces the tire back down to the tarmac. You want this to be at a higher setting so the tire can get back to the tarmac as fast as possible after the compression stroke. Fast up and fast down. Note that the same weight distribution formula is applied to the dampers as well. Like the settings I gave you.

For the rest of the suspension I would try ( and I know this goes against what everyone else on this forum would tell you) setting the camber at 3.5 to 4.0 degrees in the front and around 2.0 in the back. More or less in the rear for less or more rotation of the rear. Then I would suggest that you set the stabilizers at around where you feel comfortable. I set mine at 3 in front and 7 in back for my NSX but I don't mind a little rotation. So maybe just try 3 and 5 and see how it is. Normally the front would be lower but on MR cars I find that you want a little more front stabilizer to keep the car steady under hard and off camber or bumpy conditions. leave all the toe straight unless it is still twitchy at high speeds then add -1 in the rear. As for ride height the lower on a MR car the better. Keeping your center of gravity low on a unstable base platform such as a MR2 will go miles for ya. However putting the ride height as low as it goes on the ring is not advised ( too bumpy ). Try setting it 5-8 mm higher for Ring use. For ultimate performance set the rear ride height slightly higher then the front by say, 4 mm. Not 20 like some other people will tell you. Reset the ballast to zero and get a 1.5 way LSD, trust me that is where it is at. Good luck, I hope that works for you. That is just how I like it and you may have to do some tweaking to get it to match your driving stlye.

I autocross and road race. Right now I am working on a modified civic hatch for autocross and in the future time attack events.👍

 

[sucahyo]

Dampers are easy enough to understand if you try to keep things simple. The bound is the compression stroke. On the compresion stroke you want the car to be able to absorb all the bumps on the road. Setting the bound to low will make the car react slower upon corner entry. To stiff it will not absorb bumps. The rebound stroke is where the shock forces the tire back down to the tarmac. You want this to be at a higher setting so the tire can get back to the tarmac as fast as possible after the compression stroke. Fast up and fast down. Note that the same weight distribution formula is applied to the dampers as well. Like the settings I gave you.

I just create Viper Racing video explaining how damper work in Viper Racing which should explain how damper work better:
here is the video

if you can't see the video:
on the first segment I use 0/0 0/0 damper. This should emulate how car react with soft damper equipped. during start on viper racing car usually dropped from certain height. At this moment we can already see how car keep bouncing up and down because damper do not stop suspension from moving. When the car driven the bouncing still exist, when turning in add the boucing force at one side of the car making it bouncing left and right.

on the second segment I use 9/34 9/34 damper. This emulate how rebound usually stiffer than bound. during start we can see how car became quickly stable after dropped. when we launch the car, the body do not move too much and quickly stabilize by damper. During cornering you can see that car is stable too and you can clearly see how bad my driving skill is .


my comment:
- shock do not force tire to go back to it's place, it's spring job
- shock will try to deccelerate suspension movement speed, stiffer damper will make suspension slowed down faster. This means tire will go back to it's original position faster / fast up fast down (and possibly overshoot original position) when using softer damper.

I can make another viper racing video if needed.

For the rest of the suspension I would try ( and I know this goes against what everyone else on this forum would tell you) setting the camber at 3.5 to 4.0 degrees in the front and around 2.0 in the back.

This is also what I frequently use before I use stabilizer+damper combo to balance the car. balancing by make the car tire has less grip by using more value than neccessary.

I set mine at 3 in front and 7 in back for my NSX but I don't mind a little rotation. So maybe just try 3 and 5 and see how it is. Normally the front would be lower but on MR cars I find that you want a little more front stabilizer to keep the car steady under hard and off camber or bumpy conditions.

I use stabilizer differently, higher front value to make the car more understeer during steady (no load transfer happen) cornering. Usually not related to drive train.

Reset the ballast to zero and get a 1.5 way LSD, trust me that is where it is at.

1.5 LSD usually have the same value as 0/40/20 variable LSD (I know this from hacking GT4 memory).

 

[stig_beater]

suchyo you may have misinterpreted some of the things I was trying to explain.

 

[stig_beater]

As far as explaining the shock settings I was referring to the shock as if there was no spring to keep it simple. Also force may have been a bad word to describe the rebound stroke. However, it defenitly pushes the tire back onto the ground and so the tire doesn't bouce. You make it sound as though the spring does all the work. Sorry it doesn't.

As for the camber it shows more of a real world emphasis then video game. Besides I did a lot of testing one day and found that gran turismo physics don't have a lot of concern with camber until you go insane. What I mean is that I could have the camber set like everyone else here (ex. 1.5 fr 1.0 rr ) and pull almost the exact same lap times as my setup. It is a fact that until you get to like a stupid large amount of camber like 8.0 deg. does it affect the car greatly. In real life the difference in front camber from 1.5 to 4.0 is insane. Runing high camber(not too high) will gain you a second and in gran turismo you will be lucky if you get a tenth. ( i know gran turismo isn't real life )

We are decribing the use of stabilizers in the same way just in different senarios. Most people think that by putting a stabilizer on the front of a car that it will have the biggest affect on the front of the car. That would be wrong. A stabilizer has a much greater affect on the oppisite end of the car. This is because without a stabilizer the suspension works fully independent with no feedback side to side. So when you go into a hard left hand corner the weight of the car will all be on the right front tire and none on the left rear pulling it from the ground creating a lose effect. Go into the same corner with a big front stabilzer and all the weight will transfer to the front right through the stabilizer and to the left front to even roll (note: stabilizers aka anti-roll bars or sway bars ) between the left and right front. In turn making the left rear stay in contact or closer to contact then before making the car more stable, because the diagnol forces have been reduced and the front to back force has been increased. Although no matter how big of a stabilizer you have it will never cancel all the roll by itself so the diagnol force has like I said before only been reduced not eliminated.

Thank you for the LSD tip, that is very helpful. I was always wondering what the programming for the game 1.5 way was.👍

It is cool that you offer a video to explain stuff but if you're not that good of gran turismo driver like you said then your not going to be able to tell what small changes in the suspension really do either. Only large changes and anybody can do that.

You need a good driver and brains for a good suspension setup. I am an excellent driver and I know what I am talking about. I race real cars, not a video game, real! ( obviously I play GT4 as well ) I am sure your video is cool, but with out real experience or skill theory is just a dot in my rear veiw.

I am not trying to insult you. You sound very smart and cool for helping! Just that engineering and theory is different then real world applications or virtual applications. No hard feelings.

 

[Scaff]

@Stig_Beater

Your last post was a little strange, being just a repost of suchayo's previous post?

I can only assume something went wrong here.



@ALL
In regard to the subject of dampers and to ensure that Drift260Z's thread does not get hijacked I have reopened a thread on the subject of GT4 dampers as I feel its a more appropriate place to discuss the subject.

The thread in question was originally created b y suchayo to discuss the potability that GT4 damper settings were backwards, however it soon grew beyond that.

I feel that the Tuning and settings forum could do with a thread dedicated to the subject and have taken a bit of a risk in reopening it. I would strongly advise anyone new to the thread to have a read of the whole thing before posting. It should also allow a good number of us to discuss the subject without having to rewrite a lot or linking to a dead thread.

Any questions on it please PM me.

Link - GT4 Dampers

Thanks

Scaff

 

[stig_beater]

Sorry about that post. Got caught in the middle of somthing. I fixed though and I think that having a thread just for dampers and damper settings is a good idea scaff.

 

[Scaff]

Sorry about that post. Got caught in the middle of somthing. I fixed though and I think that having a thread just for dampers and damper settings is a good idea scaff.

No problem at all, but I would suggest having a read through it first, I know its quite a bit but it will give you a good background into what has already been discussed.

Oh could I also ask that you don't double post, but use the edit button to add to your last post if no one else has posted and it only been a short time since the last post.

I am not trying to insult you. You sound very smart and cool for helping! Just that engineering and theory is different then real world applications or virtual applications. No hard feelings.

Hey you don't just need to be a race driver to understand and be able to know what is happening. I myself have never raced competitively, but I have carried out countless hours of vehicle testing and have taught in this area.

Some of the finest minds in chassis tuning don't race, for example Nick Sampson, chief engineer for chassis design at Lotus.

We are decribing the use of stabilizers in the same way just in different senarios. Most people think that by putting a stabilizer on the front of a car that it will have the biggest affect on the front of the car. That would be wrong. A stabilizer has a much greater affect on the oppisite end of the car. This is because without a stabilizer the suspension works fully independent with no feedback side to side. So when you go into a hard left hand corner the weight of the car will all be on the right front tire and none on the left rear pulling it from the ground creating a lose effect. Go into the same corner with a big front stabilzer and all the weight will transfer to the front right through the stabilizer and to the left front to even roll (note: stabilizers aka anti-roll bars or sway bars ) between the left and right front. In turn making the left rear stay in contact or closer to contact then before making the car more stable, because the diagnol forces have been reduced and the front to back force has been increased. Although no matter how big of a stabilizer you have it will never cancel all the roll by itself so the diagnol force has like I said before only been reduced not eliminated.

I would have to disagree with some of what you are saying here.

Suspension without stabilisers is not working fully independent, as each suspension unit is linked to the chassis and as such will always have some effect on each other. It is very dependent on the nature of the suspension set-up. Systems such as McPherson struts are quite strongly tied to the chassis and will have a major effect on each other. Even push-rod set-ups are often directly linked (either to each other or to a common chassis member) by the lower arms. One common type of racing front set-up (common in Europe not the states) is the monoshock pushrod, as illustrated here on a Formula Renault.

It quite clearly shows how the lower control arms are directly linked, the upper control arms are mounted to a common structure and the push rods are mounted to the monoshock.

All without an anti roll-bar in sight; now the monoshock is an extreme example, but it does illustrate the point. Even so called independent suspension is not fully independent. Its more a case of degrees of independence.

In regard to the effect of stiffening front anti-roll bars (I prefer this term - its just an English thing) I would have to say that its (in the real world) a much more complex subject than being discussed here.

A nice basic piece on it can be found in Skip Barber's book 'Going Faster' (given his credentials as a racer I'm sure you trust what he has to say - not only that but it is backed up by the engineers at the Skip Barber Race School).

Let's say you have a car that understeers and you'd like to adjust it out by changing bar settings. You have two choices. You could adjust the front bar so that it creates less roll resistance (soften it) or you could adjust the rear bar so that it creates more roll resistance (stiffen it). Lowered roll resistance in the front would would force the the rear to resist the roll motion more, putting more of the lateral load transfer on the outside rear tyre.

Now that's not to say that problems don't exist by softening anti-roll bars, as it is very dependent on the set-up of the rest of the car, and in the real world the type of suspension system at both ends, the roll centres that result and the roll axis itself.

My main point here is that fitting (or stiffening existing) anti-roll bars makes the two sides of the car 'less' independent (not that they were ever truly independent).

Regards

Scaff

(BTW good to have you on board - welcome to GT Planet's Tuning section)

 

[stig_beater]

sorry about the bad posts

I didn't mean that you have to be a race driver to understand the effects of suspension. I was just trying to say that even the greatest engineers need feedback from the greatest drivers to make the greatest handling cars. Lotus did not just take the elise off paper and have a good car. Countless hours of testing and changes were made to get it right. Also what looks good mathimatically on paper no matter how good the engineer is it almost never will work as good as intended. No one is perfect.

On the matter of independent suspension on street cars and most race cars I was referring to independent as not having a solid axle setup (or monoshock) not that the suspension wasn't linked to any other part of the car. I am very aware of different style suspensions and the differences that they make. You can also disagree with me on stabilizers, but I speak from what I know as fact. You have to remember that when discussing suspension that everybody (even very smart racers and engineers) has different opinions and facts to make there own style otherwise nissans would handle and have the same balance as lotuses and corvettes would handle like 599 GTBs.

Thanks for the welcome!

-stig_beater

(BTW this thread got a little off topic I am done now. Sorry drift260z hope one of us completly answered your question.)

 

[Azuremen]

I may give this a shot. Trying to cure the snap oversteer of the MR2 though is impossible without killing its wonderful turn it. Then you start to suffer from both understeer and oversteer depending on inputs.

Only comment I have is on the toe, notably the front toe. I typically leave my alone to allow for a more natural reponse to transitions and such. Are you using the DFP or DS2?

I race an MR2 (mk1) in real life, and the over steer is just part of the car. You learn to steer in completely with the throttle and brake, and the steering wheel is used to just start the turn

 

[Scaff]

sorry about the bad posts
That's OK everyone's new here at least once.

I didn't mean that you have to be a race driver to understand the effects of suspension. I was just trying to say that even the greatest engineers need feedback from the greatest drivers to make the greatest handling cars. Lotus did not just take the elise off paper and have a good car. Countless hours of testing and changes were made to get it right. Also what looks good mathimatically on paper no matter how good the engineer is it almost never will work as good as intended. No one is perfect.

Oh I quite agree I've met some excellent drivers who have no idea about how set-up effects the car, just how to read the car.

The example I picked (Nick Sampson of Lotus) was a bit of a cheeky one, as he not only runs the chassis design department (as his father did before him) but he's also one of the main test drivers for the company (and a former Autocar drift champion), he's the man who signs off all Lotus cars.

On the matter of independent suspension on street cars and most race cars I was referring to independent as not having a solid axle setup (or monoshock) not that the suspension wasn't linked to any other part of the car. I am very aware of different style suspensions and the differences that they make. You can also disagree with me on stabilizers, but I speak from what I know as fact. You have to remember that when discussing suspension that everybody (even very smart racers and engineers) has different opinions and facts to make there own style otherwise nissans would handle and have the same balance as lotuses and corvettes would handle like 599 GTBs.

I agree and disagree with what you say here.

I would agree that every person has a unique preference when driving and set-up will differ according to that, what's neat and fast for one driver will be an understeering pig for another.

On the subject of differences between cars, well thats a whole other ball game, we would also have to discuss the intended purpose of the car, company ideals, price compromises, drivetrain layout, etc. far too big a subject for here and now, but in the future who knows.

What I would not agree with (and I'm not 100% sure you are actually saying it) is that the physics involved in what is occurring are up for debate. Its a pet subject of mine (as I used to teach vehicle dynamics in the motor industry) and a car will act the way it does in a certain situation in accordance with the laws of physics, its just at times it gets bloody complex (and that's the bit I must sadly admit I love).

I may give this a shot. Trying to cure the snap oversteer of the MR2 though is impossible without killing its wonderful turn it. Then you start to suffer from both understeer and oversteer depending on inputs.

Only comment I have is on the toe, notably the front toe. I typically leave my alone to allow for a more natural reponse to transitions and such. Are you using the DFP or DS2?

I race an MR2 (mk1) in real life, and the over steer is just part of the car. You learn to steer in completely with the throttle and brake, and the steering wheel is used to just start the turn

Azuremen I have to concur, too many times people try and dial out all the natural characteristics of a car and end up ruining it.

The Mk1 MR2 is a shortwheel base, light-weight MR car, as such its going to have a low PMI and be eager to change direction, but will bit back if you are not careful. The two go hand in hand, get rid of one (which is not always possible) and you lose the other. Not always a desirable situation.

The Yellowbird is another car that suffers from this fate, sometimes a driver just needs to learn to drive the car the way it needs to be driven.


Regards

Scaff

 

[sucahyo]

However, it defenitly pushes the tire back onto the ground and so the tire doesn't bouce. You make it sound as though the spring does all the work. Sorry it doesn't.

What I mean is, suspension without spring will have no power to rebounce it.

Besides I did a lot of testing one day and found that gran turismo physics don't have a lot of concern with camber until you go insane.

I feel the same too since I found out using 12.0 front camber on Supra RZ still can make it hugging inside corner at test course at 250mph.

Most people think that by putting a stabilizer on the front of a car that it will have the biggest affect on the front of the car. That would be wrong.

Agree, but I don't think GT4 has enough stabilizer tuning range that allowed that to happen easily. Even making the inside tire lift during steady cornering is very hard and need special car. When that happen, the car try to spin in GT4 not just more oversteer.

It is cool that you offer a video to explain stuff but if you're not that good of gran turismo driver like you said then your not going to be able to tell what small changes in the suspension really do either. Only large changes and anybody can do that.

In gran turismo, damper, stabilizer and spring rate tuning range is not as high as in Viper Racing, so I have to deal with small changes. I don't do car race, but I have good enough experience with car. Tarmac road is usually uneven in here, even the main road, bump is just bonus. I drove car with 7 passenger to mountain sometime.

my experience and little advertising for my country:
Indonesian Mount Bromo, used for Kasada ritual, have three mountain inside it's still active caldera. To reach the small mountain, you need to pass 3km of black sand either by using off road vehicle or by horse. Motorcyle can survive, but usually broken when gets home . In caldera, normal vehicle is forbidden to pass.

Before the caldera you must pass road build from rock with the size of head put together with road inclination can reach 70 degree. If you don't know how to use the clucth or throttle properly, you have really big problem. Either you will ruin the engine or fry the clutch. When you back down home you have to use engine brake or your brake will be wear out quickly. And you must certain that your car can survive rain.

Before reaching that road you have nice tarmac, but only big enough to fit two sedan. If there are truck or bus from opposite direction you must let your outside tire go off road. You must be carefull in corner, because not all corner have safety fence.

All that problem will be forgotten when you take a deep breath of fresh air and see the sun rising.........

Fog is covering the black sea sands

Just remember to spare your energy to drive safely home .

For damper experience, I have first hand experience riding bike with broken shock where shock oil drained empty. I know what the difference is when I take the same very bumpy corner. And my suggestion to my father to replace the damper of his car work just like expected (thanks to damper thread, I can confidently suggest this to my father). It really help stabilizing car at high speed on bumpy road, no more bump in the head for rear passenger .

About my tuning skill, I satisfied enough that some GT4 tuning competition judge give me good comment lately . Still a lot more to improve though.

 

[stig_beater]

You are very intelligent and I look forward to discussing suspension further with you and the others in the future.

 

[sucahyo]

I still learning . I look forward to it too .