Muscle Car Wars Go to NASCAR? Well, For Dodge Anyway...

[YSSMAN]

Many lament the days when stock cars were actually based on production cars, rather than the new NASCAR Nextel Cup Car of Tomorrow vehicles that merely wear stickers bearing the headlights and grille of their production counterparts. While production-based stock cars will likely never happen again, word is that the NASCAR Busch Series will switch to cars based on the Ford Mustang, Chevy Camaro, Dodge Challenger and yet-to-be-determined model from Toyota as soon as the 2009 season.

Thanks for the tip, John R.

[Source: SpeedTV]

The world of NASCAR is divided into three series, which include the NASCAR Craftsman Truck Series, NASCAR Busch Series and NASCAR Nextel Cup Series. The Busch Series has had a bit of an identity crisis lately, though. Meant to be a stage for a up and coming drivers in NASCAR, seasoned vets have taken to racing in the Busch Series as well as the Nextel Cup and usually dominate the podium of the former. While switching to pony cars won't chase away the experienced drivers, it will give the Busch Series a new hook to attract viewers.

Insiders say the plan is ideal since the new race cars will be built on the older NASCAR Nextel Cup chassis, of which there are plenty lying around after the premiere series switched to the much derided Car of Tomorrow. In fact, we surmise that with a line up of Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers and whatever Toyota wants to offer, coupled with young talent reaching for the brass ring and pros looking to sharpen their skills, the Busch Series might become more entertaining to watch than its big brother.

Hell yes!

There was a time, a long, long time ago when Camaros and Mustangs did run in NASCAR, which I believe was the moder-day equal to the Bush Series as we see it today. I have to say its a good idea, maybe not necessarily for NASCAR and the given companies for having to design a new body to run the cars with, but to maybe reel NASCAR back into the production-based racers like they should be. Although, you do have to wonder what Toyota would bring to the show...

 

[TopHat]

Toyota would probably run a Solara or something.



This would almost get me to watch NASCAR.

 

[Dougboy]

So if the cars are based off production cars, then will Toyota be running a FWD racer?

 

[High-Test]

So if the cars are based off production cars, then will Toyota be running a FWD racer?

Ah, why not. All the torque steer may help out. Just hope the car pulls to the left and not the right.

 

[Syxx_Killer]

That would be sweet! I have been thinking about this the other day. It sure will be cool to see cars like these on the tracks! 👍

 

[Kent]

Interesting.
What's also interesting about this is the idea that Toyota will have to come up with something to use and according to the rumors, there is a new RWD Toyota in the works, is it possible a new RWD Toyota will be more likely due to this sort of change?

In any case, it should be interesting to see what they do with the series.
Personally, I'd love to see cars a bit closer to stock. 👍

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, Toyota in theory should have a RWD chassis to play with once the LF-A hits the streets, but this being said, my guess is that chassis will be far too expensive to be any good at anything in a "poor man's" Toyota. Then again, I could be wrong, but I just suspect a Cadillac-like chassis-hoarding...

Getting the Camaro, Challenger and Mustang together ensures fun, if you ask me. There is still the rumor going on around whether or not they will be racing together in a newly-minted Trans-Am series again; Spurred of course by the Ford FR500GT. It should be fun, the whole thing really, and I'm still willing to bet cash on the Chevrolet or Dodge dominance out on the track...

God knows what the hell this will mean for us performance guys... Resurfacing of "true" SS or Z/28, BOSS or Mach 1, and T/A or R/T models? Hell yes!

 

[Philly]

I like this whole Toyota getting into redneck American sports thing. Maybe it has to do with their failure in F1 so they are looking for something they can keep pace in. It just seems random. Toyota doesn't have ANYTHING that would fit the mold of the Mustang, Challenger and Camaro.

As for the American 3, this sounds pretty cool. It might give me a little more respect for the sport. My only questions: Will the body shapes be based off of these cars or will everybody be running the same body with stickers tacked on to resemble a particular muscle car? Will the bodies be recognizable as the cars they are supposed to represent?

 

[Syxx_Killer]

As for the American 3, this sounds pretty cool. It might give me a little more respect for the sport. My only questions: Will the body shapes be based off of these cars or will everybody be running the same body with stickers tacked on to resemble a particular muscle car? Will the bodies be recognizable as the cars they are supposed to represent?

Boy, I hope so! I am so sick of seeing the current cars in NASCAR. Those stickers are awful. The shapes of the cars are horrid (COT is ok, but still not what I would like to see). Additionally, I am so sick of seeing them race sedans like the Fusion, Impala, Corolla, and Avenger. I wish they would race cars that resemble what SCCA GT uses (don't have to be Vipers or Corvettes, though).

 

[ND4SPD]

Well anyone remember the Nascar Goody's dash series? They were running celica's well before they entered the truck, busch and nextel cup series. Maybe they'll enter a scion or something.

 

[3-Wheel Drive]

Maybe they'll enter a scion or something.

But can they get a box to do 200mph?

And this is good news. Stock cars used to be based off of performance cars. Whose decision was it to switch to family sedans?

 

[YSSMAN]

To answer a few questions at once:

Q: What bodies will they run?

I honestly don't know. It would be outstandingly cool to seem them use the stock bodies from the vehicles we can buy on the road, much like how it was before the Lumina and Thunderbird went to a similar shape. None of the three are really all that aerodynamic to begin with, so I'm sure there would be a lot of tinkering done to get it right. Then again, you never really know with NASCAR. Keep your fingers crossed for stock bodies, and it could very well happen...

Q: Remember Goody's Dash?

Yes, I do in fact. I also remember that Toyota wasn't too incredibly successful, but ran Celica bodies nonetheless to a few wins over a couple of seasons. Interestingly enough, there was never really any "fanfare" to speak of.

Q: Why the switch to family sedans?

It was the evolution of the cars that were formerly used that eventually got us to where we are today. At least in the case of Ford, Thunderbird -> Taurus -> Fusion. For Chevrolet? Monte Carlo -> Lumina -> Monte Carlo -> Impala, basically a dance through the W-Body after the end of the G-Body.

The Monte Carlo was the last coupe, after they killed the Solara and never made Fusion Coupe plans official.

 

[niky]

It's going to take a lot of work to make those retro-bling mobiles work on a high-speed track... but it'd be fun to watch. The current shape of NASCAR, with essentially identical cars underneath nearly-identical fiberglass shells, using engines and suspensions from the stone-age, just isn't good for racing.

Well, it's good for close wheel-to-wheel racing, but it's in desperate need of some fresh tech.

 

[Jim Prower]

Hm, It's interesting...

ON TOYOTA'S CAR:
My bet: Toyota'll either try harping the IS-F or Scion tC, If they're even allowed, as both cars are worlds away from Challenger, Mustang and Camaro. the tC is slightly closer aerodynamically from a looks standpoint...

ON BODYSTYLES USED IN GENERAL:
I seem to remember NASCAR's old "GT" series, which the BGN series replaced. the cars were...(This is so Poetic) Mustang, Firebird, and Camaro. More likely than not, the cars will be sheetmetal/fiberglass over tube frames (All the lower series other than street stock are, so why not this one?)

Interesting note...Could Pontiac forseeably throw a GTO into the mix? Just for the hell of it?

 

[Philly]

Interesting note...Could Pontiac forseeably throw a GTO into the mix? Just for the hell of it?

I was thinking that there could be more options, but it might not make total sense for GM to have two cars running. I can easily see them sticking with just the Camaro, at least for now.

 

[YSSMAN]

My guess is that Pontiac wouldn't field a car, as it would essentially just run Chevrolet bits and pieces anyway. Keep in mind that while GM does want most of their brands to go racing, they've split up the programs quite heavily.

Chevrolet
- NASCAR: Impala SS -> Zeta Impala + Zeta Camaro?
- ALMS: Team Corvette (may be disbanded, may move down to GT2 from GT1)

Pontiac
- Formula D: Solstice GXP (also does hill-climbs)
- Rolex Daytona Prototypes: Pontiac power
- Rolex GT?: GXP.R (Pontiac G6 racecar)

Cadillac
- SCCA GT: Team Cadillac CTS-V (future somewhat uncertain)

Saturn?
- Astra may go racing in US (given VXR/OPC success)

 

[Tornado]

So, what. It'll be more like the IROC series still is? Awesome.

 

[ND4SPD]

Hmm, I've always wanted to see those IROC Firebords get more exposure.

 

[harrytuttle]

I don't see how whether Ford puts the Mustang or Taurus on the road is of any relevance. They're both just going to be tube-frame chassis with fiberglass shells and stick-on headlights. They're not cars, and hardly resemble the "stock car" part of NASCAR. Why not go back to how it was in the 70's, where they not only resembled the real car, but pretty much were? That should encourage some inventive design, both on- and off-road, and boost sales immensely. I don't watch NASCAR anyway, but it might hold my interest at least from a technical standpoint.

 

[YSSMAN]

My guess is that NASCAR does sympathize with you, as there are many fans who quite critically go against NASCAR's moves to make everything "even" between the cars. The question largely is over whether or not NASCAR wants to force the companies to use "stock" cars again, and furthermore, if the safety of the cars can come anywhere close to whats needed in a 200 MPH world.

...Then again, if they keep the speeds down (say, a manageable 160-170 MPH), they may have a bit more success like they did in the 1960s and 1970s...

 

[Jim Prower]

Thing is, then you get what effectively is a Touring Car series on ovals, and the technical requirements of the cars would be very difficult to regulate. besides, Ford couldn't participate if the formula was FR V8 4-door car, unless they were allowed to import the Falcon for a few years until they develop a FR 4-door of their own. If we based 'em on truly stock cars, we might as well just adopt the V8 Supercar and Supertouring 2000 formulas...which, I believe, would alienate NASCAR's more traditional fans.

On the other hand, WTCC and BTCC drivers could hop across the pond...

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, its all dependant first and foremost on what the fans want, what NASCAR wants, and what the automakers are willing to do. I'd bet pretty good money that they wouldn't dump the carburetors, but then again, I could be mistaken. Using off-the-shelf rolling chassis really would change the game, and in the long run, would probably give Ford an advantage on the oval tracks (in most cases), but overall, my guess is that Chrysler or GM would win-out with their respective vehicles.

The thing is, I'm just not sure how they would go about modifying these cars to do this simply because they really don't exist... And while the Mustang is in fact here, its presumably switching to the Falcon's Orion chassis come 2009/2010.

 

[Duphman]

I believe Toyota would most likely use the production version of the FT-HS concept (still hoping they call it the Supra). They seemed to have a lot of money behind that project so I wouldnt be surprised.

 

[Philly]

The FT-HS/Supra is such a different car though. It is a tuner "Slap a bigger turbo on" car while the Mustang, Camaro and Challenger are more muscle "no replacement for displacement" cars, not to mention blockier and probably less aerodynamic styling.

 

[Duphman]

But thats the only vehicle that Toyota could possibly put up. The Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are as close as the Detroit Big 3 can come to reasonably priced sports cars (maybe not the Challenger). I cant really think of a blocky high powered 2-dr from toyota, unless they make a coupe fom the Lexus IS-F.

 

[Philly]

But thats the only vehicle that Toyota could possibly put up. The Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are as close as the Detroit Big 3 can come to reasonably priced sports cars (maybe not the Challenger). I cant really think of a blocky high powered 2-dr from toyota, unless they make a coupe fom the Lexus IS-F.

That's really the problem. It's not that Toyota lacks any cars like them, it's that Toyota just doesn't fit in. Dare I say it's like bringing a Veyron to a track day of Saleens, Mostlers and other things like that? Different cars for different purposes.

 

[YSSMAN]

But thats the only vehicle that Toyota could possibly put up. The Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger are as close as the Detroit Big 3 can come to reasonably priced sports cars (maybe not the Challenger). I cant really think of a blocky high powered 2-dr from toyota, unless they make a coupe fom the Lexus IS-F.

Actually, you forgot about the GM Kappa Cars (Solstice, Sky, GT) which will be adding a hard-top coupe by the end of 2008... Long before Toyota will have their "AE86-successor" ready. Considering that the Solstice coupe should go for less than $20K to start, I'd call that an "affordable sports car."

Plus, this doesn't include the upcoming Alpha-based Pontiac G5 and G6 (think BMW 3er-sized coupe and sedan) of which I assume, at least in G5 form, should retail for not much more than $20K with a V6 and a stick.

 

[Duphman]

Whoops I forgot about the Kappas and the Dodge Hornet (whatever its called). Any who it still stands that the IS-F is a close as Toyota can come to a musclecar. Unless they bring back the Celica name and attempt to make it in the same vein as the original (a Japanese "muscle" car).

 

[frestkd]

I have an idea for Toyota to make their own muscle car use the engines and transmissions out of the Tundra Trucks, and with live rear axle design like in the 4Runner SUVs in a Solera Unibody converted to fit a front engine rear wheel drive. They would sell like hot cake on a cold winter morning.

 

[YSSMAN]

TALK ABOUT A DEAD THREAD COMING BACK!

We reported last year that the next battle in the Muscle Car Wars (patent still pending) might play out on the oval tracks of Nascar's Busch Series. We were only partially right, as testing of the Nationwide Series (formerly Busch Series) 2009 Car of Tomorrow began yesterday at Richmond International Raceway. Dodge showed up at the test with their new Dodge Challenger — with more than a mere sticker set for the headlights and grille. Thanks to NASCAR's decision to relax a-pillar-and-forward "manufacturer identity" modifications there's actually a Challenger inset grille and what appears to be raised hood areas — just like the real car! Shoot, it's the closest thing we've seen to a realistic-looking stock car out of a NASCAR league in decades. Unfortunately, they're looking to be the only muscle car on the track as Ford'll be running a Taurus (weird decision, we know) rather than a Mustang, Chevy will be running a we-don't-know-what (we're told it's not going to be the Camaro) and Toyota will have themselves another Camry with stickers.

Its a little sad that GM and Ford won't play ball with the Camaro and the Mustang, but who knows, maybe they can add them next-next year? Either way, its an awesome move on Chrysler's behalf!