N Class races in GT Sport

[J91patriz]

Hi all,

I was curios to see if I am the only one thinking that N races should be implemented in GT sport daily races.

I don’t get why it has to be Gr every day with sometimes mono brand races featuring random cars that at least in my case have 0% appeal.

There can be different solutions to this and shouldn’t be that difficult honestly, here’s one:

Keep your mono brand low power vehicle and add a n500/600 or higher race alongisde the usual gr races, so in total you would have 4 daily races. Possibly have 10 lap races WITH realistic settings for the n500+ cars and not the usual 4 laps.

We should also be able to use our own vehicles with customed tunes but this has already been discussed multiple times.

Curios to see what the community here thinks.

 

[Ecghteow]

Upping the number of daylies to 44and having one for N-classes sounds sweet. Maybe they are too afraid of fragmenting the playerbase too much, which would lead to smaller grids.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I read somewhere else that they did have N class dailies back then, but people just detuned M4s and it effectively became a one-make race. Afaik they didn't bother with the road car's BoP anymore, so the cars remain unbalanced.

 

[Ecghteow]

I guess that's why we don't get as many nice things we'd otherwise might.

 

[I-Runner]

I'd like to have for these races long tracks (nordschleife) also, not only the short ones (i.e. Suzuki east).

Some of the best races of my GT "life" were in Nordschleife with 250PP cars in the previous GT..

IR

 

[J91patriz]

I read somewhere else that they did have N class dailies back then, but people just detuned M4s and it effectively became a one-make race. Afaik they didn't bother with the road car's BoP anymore, so the cars remain unbalanced.

That’s why I think tuning must be left open. If you can set your car you could be competitive in areas where a stock won’t be.

I wasn’t aware of the M4 but it sorts of make me laugh to think that it would be the fastest option out there given what I see in lobbies. Surely it won’t be used in n500+ though. Only saw a few in the early months but then they disappeared

 

[snowgt]

I assume the reason for this is that they have their hands full with the BoP’s for Gr.3&4. The Early races in N-classes proved that the BoP was completely uneven, and the system for classifying the cars is flawed. The only(!) deciding factor currently is power, so you get cars that are massively overpowered for any class they race in. (KTM, S-FR Concept,...)

 

[Alpha Cipher]

That’s why I think tuning must be left open. If you can set your car you could be competitive in areas where a stock won’t be.

I wasn’t aware of the M4 but it sorts of make me laugh to think that it would be the fastest option out there given what I see in lobbies. Surely it won’t be used in n500+ though. Only saw a few in the early months but then they disappeared

I don't want to get in this mess that is whether or not to allow tuning so I won't say much, but I think in N500+ it's the Gr. 3/B cars that'd dominate instead of the M4

I assume the reason for this is that they have their hands full with the BoP’s for Gr.3&4. The Early races in N-classes proved that the BoP was completely uneven, and the system for classifying the cars is flawed. The only(!) deciding factor currently is power, so you get cars that are massively overpowered for any class they race in. (KTM, S-FR Concept,...)

^This
Gr. 3 and 4 BoP is already a mess, with people complaining left and right that X car is OP. It surely decreased a whole lot throughout the updates, but some people still aren't satisfied. I think it's a wise decision to fix the BoP of Gr. 3 and 4 before moving on to Gr. 1, B, and the N classes

 

[snowgt]

^This
Gr. 3 and 4 BoP is already a mess, with people complaining left and right that X car is OP. It surely decreased a whole lot throughout the updates, but some people still aren't satisfied. I think it's a wise decision to fix the BoP of Gr. 3 and 4 before moving on to Gr. 1, B, and the N classes

I also think it’s very difficult to achieve. Race cars are pretty similar in terms of power and weight, but how they want to balance a 1000kg car against one with 1500kg? The result will always be flawed.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I also think it’s very difficult to achieve. Race cars are pretty similar in terms of power and weight, but how they want to balance a 1000kg car against one with 1500kg? The result will always be flawed.

Unless there's a BoP for every single track in the game for every single Gr. 3 and 4 car will there only be true balance. And for obvious reasons PD can't do that, so despite its shortcomings, I think the current BoP is doing a relatively excellent job in keeping all the cars some sort of role (even the Mustang can compete if it's Monza or Tokyo East)

 

[Scaff]

I read somewhere else that they did have N class dailies back then, but people just detuned M4s and it effectively became a one-make race. Afaik they didn't bother with the road car's BoP anymore, so the cars remain unbalanced.

That would be exactly why.

It was too easy to downtune a car from the class above and dominate the field.

 

[J91patriz]

That would be exactly why.

It was too easy to downtune a car from the class above and dominate the field.

Mmm, my experience from lobbies does not indicate the same.

I spend 99% of time in n500/600 lobbies (with realistic settings as much as possible)

I see from time to time detuned cars but aren’t hyper competitive (i.e 458 or Nissan GT).

However in all these cases we were running with our setting and that might make a big difference.

Tyre settings make a big difference as well, your M4 guy might struggle to be competitive in corners if he doesn’t have super sticky tyres.

Bop also shouldn’t make people expect to be competitive with, let’s say, a Mustang vs a proper supercar.

I just think that it would be nice to offer also to those who are more interested in road cars some proper racing in sport mode.

At the moment there is no value add, they are just replicating the random races in gt5/6 where you get assigned a car but at least those were fun.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Mmm, my experience from lobbies does not indicate the same.

I spend 99% of time in n500/600 lobbies (with realistic settings as much as possible)

I see from time to time detuned cars but aren’t hyper competitive (i.e 458 or Nissan GT).

However in all these cases we were running with our setting and that might make a big difference.

Tyre settings make a big difference as well, your M4 guy might struggle to be competitive in corners if he doesn’t have super sticky tyres.

Bop also shouldn’t make people expect to be competitive with, let’s say, a Mustang vs a proper supercar.

I just think that it would be nice to offer also to those who are more interested in road cars some proper racing in sport mode.

At the moment there is no value add, they are just replicating the random races in gt5/6 where you get assigned a car but at least those were fun.

That's rather interesting. Are the N500/600 lobbies really varied or do you see some regulars? Not necessarily OP but just cars that are popular in the class? How about the road going Gr. 3/B cars, I know they lack top end speed (and some acceleration as well) but are they really enough to balance out their near racecar handling ability? I haven't really raced any N class cars so I'd like to know what happens in these lobbies

As for the M4, it was used in lower N classes. It's dominant there, but I speculate that it's below average at best at higher classes; plain bad at worst. For the tire settings, unless you're doing endurance races with tire wear, I don't really see the point of using inferior tires. They're not included in the BoP if you ever apply them, so why handicap yourself? And even in enduro races if you've got the right strategy you can win on inferior tires.

 

[J91patriz]

That's rather interesting. Are the N500/600 lobbies really varied or do you see some regulars? Not necessarily OP but just cars that are popular in the class? How about the road going Gr. 3/B cars, I know they lack top end speed (and some acceleration as well) but are they really enough to balance out their near racecar handling ability? I haven't really raced any N class cars so I'd like to know what happens in these lobbies

As for the M4, it was used in lower N classes. It's dominant there, but I speculate that it's below average at best at higher classes; plain bad at worst. For the tire settings, unless you're doing endurance races with tire wear, I don't really see the point of using inferior tires. They're not included in the BoP if you ever apply them, so why handicap yourself? And even in enduro races if you've got the right strategy you can win on inferior tires.

I would say they are rather varied, you see people with all sort of things trying out different strategies. So for instance there’s the AWD guy with the Nissan, more recently people are taking out the F40 and F1.
The gr road cars I see them often around interlagos, brands hatch at times but yeah they do suffer from low top speed however I presume people find them easy to use and so manage to get their best times with those.

However, if you set up the car well you can play for the win. This is I think the big difference.

Sorry, my comment about tyres was slightly different let me make an example.

In n500 without bop the f40 has got both top power and one of the lowest weight of the lot.

Now, with racing supersoft for all without degradation (what most lobbies do) and driving assists most of the handling issues will be hidden as well and that exacerbates the issue.

However if you were to use sport tyres you see them already dropping back because people can’t just hit full gas no matter what.

Essentially, tyre choices in the room affect performance balance as well.

Edit: forgot to add:

That’s why what we have today doesn’t add any value. Driving with a car I would never use (see today’s daily with the Toyota ft1) isn’t really pushing it to the limit. It’s rather picking up a random car, drive it for the day, see how it handles and then forget it again.

 

[pedrocor]

Without PP instead of N classes, with would be pointless.
A N400 or a N300 race would be a X-Bow trophy, for example.

 

[Scaff]

Mmm, my experience from lobbies does not indicate the same.

I spend 99% of time in n500/600 lobbies (with realistic settings as much as possible)

I see from time to time detuned cars but aren’t hyper competitive (i.e 458 or Nissan GT).

However in all these cases we were running with our setting and that might make a big difference.

Tyre settings make a big difference as well, your M4 guy might struggle to be competitive in corners if he doesn’t have super sticky tyres.

Bop also shouldn’t make people expect to be competitive with, let’s say, a Mustang vs a proper supercar.

I just think that it would be nice to offer also to those who are more interested in road cars some proper racing in sport mode.

At the moment there is no value add, they are just replicating the random races in gt5/6 where you get assigned a car but at least those were fun.

I'm not basing it on my own single experience, but rather the collective view of the members here who discussed it (and they did a lot).

Late last year (October 19th) the M4 (and to a lesser degree the 4C) were dominating the N300 daily events after being downtuned. Shortly after PD stopped all N class daily events and moved to single make ones (as in the day after, the 20th Oct).

Could be a massive coincidence, but I strongly suspect not.

 

[J91patriz]

I'm not basing it on my own single experience, but rather the collective view of the members here who discussed it (and they did a lot).

Late last year (October 19th) the M4 (and to a lesser degree the 4C) were dominating the N300 daily events after being downtuned. Shortly after PD stopped all N class daily events and moved to single make ones (as in the day after, the 20th Oct).

Could be a massive coincidence, but I strongly suspect not.

I’m not saying they were wrong, it might well be possible but by the same token they should have stopped gr races as well - see scirocco and megane

I just wanted to point out that the situation in mid / high n classes doesn’t look that dire and that road car “users” shouldn’t just be relegated to half empty lobbies most of the time while we wait for them (how many months more?) to first fix the racing class bop.

 

[Scaff]

I’m not saying they were wrong, it might well be possible but by the same token they should have stopped gr races as well - see scirocco and megane

I just wanted to point out that the situation in mid / high n classes doesn’t look that dire and that road car “users” shouldn’t just be relegated to half empty lobbies most of the time while we wait for them (how many months more?) to first fix the racing class bop.

Oh I agree that it should have been fixed by now, an easier and better fix would in my view have been to simply stop cars being downtuned into a lower class.

 

[snowgt]

I'm not basing it on my own single experience, but rather the collective view of the members here who discussed it (and they did a lot).

Late last year (October 19th) the M4 (and to a lesser degree the 4C) were dominating the N300 daily events after being downtuned. Shortly after PD stopped all N class daily events and moved to single make ones (as in the day after, the 20th Oct).

Could be a massive coincidence, but I strongly suspect not.

Yes, it's very likely they saw that the N300 races were not working the way they set the restrictions and immediately gave them up in favour of one make races as they were focussing on Gr. 3&4. If I recall correctly though, the main problem was that they did not enforce a BoP for those N300-races. That basically meant that you were able to set each car to minimum weight and up to about 345hp, and that produces a massively uneven playing field.

I also don't think the downtuning as such is a problem, or that downtuned cars by definition have an advantage. Some cars dominate no matter what class they are tuned to. One factor is also how much weight you can take out of the car, as this weirdly does not have an effect on a car's classification.

The M4 probably dominated a) because it is one of the best cars that actually can still be downtuned to N300 (slightly more powerful N500's can't be), but b) mainly because people hadn't discovered the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept yet.

I've started to run tests in the lower N-classes, and it turned out that e.g. the fastest N100 car is not a downtuned car at all (It's the up-tuned Mazda Roadster and the S-FR). That seems to suggest that it's simply certain cars that stand out, not downtuning that does it. (The deciding factor is probably weight - at least, it should be from how the classification works)

In N200, the fastest are the S-FR Racing (duh, it's a race car) and the Alfa 4C (a default N200 car). They are miles ahead of all other N200 cars. If you ignore these 2 though, even tuned to N200, the fastest N100 cars are competitive.

 

[Voodoovaj]

Upping the number of daylies to 44and having one for N-classes sounds sweet. Maybe they are too afraid of fragmenting the playerbase too much, which would lead to smaller grids.

Personally, I think smaller grids is better. It increases the likelihood that you can find a place to win. Also, you can implement more strict DR/SR caps based on how fast the cars are.

I think N class racing, AND TUNING FFS, should be a part of dailies as well as more dailies. I've been trumpeting this since before GT League came out.

Let's face it, the 20 folks that are in your Gr3 race aren't the only people online. The severs can still host the same number of races, just more race types.

 

[SleezyBigSlim]

Or they can just add more Sport races and make them tunable and remove bop. Racing the GR cars in GT League with no bop made me realize how bop is hindering my knowledge of what these cars can really do. The Mercedes is the real star in GR3, but due to bop its handicapt in nearly every race. The Porsche is not that good on its own merits but it's beast in GR3 Sport mode due to bop.

 

[J91patriz]

Yes, it's very likely they saw that the N300 races were not working the way they set the restrictions and immediately gave them up in favour of one make races as they were focussing on Gr. 3&4. If I recall correctly though, the main problem was that they did not enforce a BoP for those N300-races. That basically meant that you were able to set each car to minimum weight and up to about 345hp, and that produces a massively uneven playing field.

I also don't think the downtuning as such is a problem, or that downtuned cars by definition have an advantage. Some cars dominate no matter what class they are tuned to. One factor is also how much weight you can take out of the car, as this weirdly does not have an effect on a car's classification.

The M4 probably dominated a) because it is one of the best cars that actually can still be downtuned to N300 (slightly more powerful N500's can't be), but b) mainly because people hadn't discovered the Toyota S-FR Racing Concept yet.

I've started to run tests in the lower N-classes, and it turned out that e.g. the fastest N100 car is not a downtuned car at all (It's the up-tuned Mazda Roadster and the S-FR). That seems to suggest that it's simply certain cars that stand out, not downtuning that does it. (The deciding factor is probably weight - at least, it should be from how the classification works)

In N200, the fastest are the S-FR Racing (duh, it's a race car) and the Alfa 4C (a default N200 car). They are miles ahead of all other N200 cars. If you ignore these 2 though, even tuned to N200, the fastest N100 cars are competitive.

Thanks for the insight on those early races, if indeed there was no BoP then it’s a whole different story.

I also agree on your other points i.e. is not downtuning that makes a car competitive as per my earlier post.

Further your experience is similar to what I see in 500/600 rooms, as I don’t usually race in lower categories, except for the dominant cars where I experience a variety of vehicles on the grid both up and downtuned.

Personally, I think smaller grids is better. It increases the likelihood that you can find a place to win. Also, you can implement more strict DR/SR caps based on how fast the cars are.

I think N class racing, AND TUNING FFS, should be a part of dailies as well as more dailies. I've been trumpeting this since before GT League came out.

Let's face it, the 20 folks that are in your Gr3 race aren't the only people online. The severs can still host the same number of races, just more race types.

Agree, there shouldn’t be issues of players per room, at least not from GT the main driving title for PS

 

[Voodoovaj]

Agree, there shouldn’t be issues of players per room, at least not from GT the main driving title for PS

Break the dailies into the driving badge tiers (emerald, amethyst, etc, etc). I believe there are 5 badges.

At the bottom, you drive the slowest cars. It's open to all levels. (Maybe no matchmaking). Then move up the badges and the difficulty. People complain that they can't win or that others are "dirty" but obviously, people are driving over their head.

More places to drive slow and with decent incentive would be good!

Why not a 10 lap race with N200 cars? get people used to it.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I would say they are rather varied, you see people with all sort of things trying out different strategies. So for instance there’s the AWD guy with the Nissan, more recently people are taking out the F40 and F1.
The gr road cars I see them often around interlagos, brands hatch at times but yeah they do suffer from low top speed however I presume people find them easy to use and so manage to get their best times with those.

However, if you set up the car well you can play for the win. This is I think the big difference.

Sorry, my comment about tyres was slightly different let me make an example.

In n500 without bop the f40 has got both top power and one of the lowest weight of the lot.

Now, with racing supersoft for all without degradation (what most lobbies do) and driving assists most of the handling issues will be hidden as well and that exacerbates the issue.

However if you were to use sport tyres you see them already dropping back because people can’t just hit full gas no matter what.

Essentially, tyre choices in the room affect performance balance as well.

Edit: forgot to add:

That’s why what we have today doesn’t add any value. Driving with a car I would never use (see today’s daily with the Toyota ft1) isn’t really pushing it to the limit. It’s rather picking up a random car, drive it for the day, see how it handles and then forget it again.

N classes seem to be more balanced that I thought it was then
Like others have said, I also agree on just preventing people from downtuning
I think once that is applied, only fine tuning of the BoP would be needed based on what I saw from this thread, like the current BoP of Gr. 3 and 4. But I'm fine with waiting out the BoP for N classes until Gr. 3 and 4 are as fine tuned as they can be