Need help - ready to quit (again)

[tzracer]

Back ground,

Been playing since GT1.
Have a G27 with GIMX and raspberry pi.
Raced for 29 years, 9 years motocross (sucked), 2 racing karts (won 1 race, not as fun as 2 wheels, too easy to be fearless with 4 wheels), 18 roadracing (30+ wins, mid-pack at pro level, mostly GP bikes, even managed to win some podium hats).

Just put in 140 miles in the Fiat, can't get within 1 second of what I did earlier in the week.

How do you judge speed?
With no peripheral view, can't really judge speed. Can't judge entry speed, really hard to try changes in speed if all seems the same. Virtually all cars seem really slow to me, causing me to enter too fast (at least that is what I think).

How do you judge turn in, brake points etc?
When I raced I rarely used markers (brake, turn in). Josh Hayes (multi time US super bike champion) said it best, "I brake, turn, get on the gas when it looks right".
Does not seem to translate well to video games. Looking deep (when possible) through corners also doesn't seem to work well either.

How do you judge tire grip, car rotation (about yaw axis)?
The wheel feedback is nothing like a real steering wheel. For me, it really doesn't tell me much.
I try to use tire sounds, but they seem more reactive than proactive. When is it squeal and when is it slide? Motorcycle tires only make noise when you are in trouble. Also, I tend to shut off my hearing when I concentrate, I stop hearing the tires if I really concentrate.

Transmission
I tend to use automatic. For me, manual makes me think too much about shifting. It does not feel natural. Not every shift takes place at red line. I short shift some shifts at every track I have raced. The game does not seem to work the same way. Hard for me, when I can't feel the acceleration of the car.

Brakes
Don't think I have to say much here. Nothing like the real thing. I rode bikes that rewarded late braking, trail braking and high corner speed. Hurts more than helps.

I think my main problem is needing feedback that a video game will not give me (at least in the years I have left). Looking at a flat screen does not give me much information. The lack of feedback/information causes lack of consistancy, can't pick up where I left off. IRL I could cut lap after lap within a tenth effortlessly. Maybe just need to accept that this is as good as I will ever be at video racing. At least I have not taken any ambulance rides playing GT (or mouth to mouth and wake up in hospital the next day - raced 8 more years after that).

Thanks

Brian

 

[tzracer]

Been thinking about this.

Biggest problems -

Car positioning on track, very difficult to place where I want it repeatably- hard time knowing where I am (left-right) on the track (with high precision). I have a hard time hitting the same line.

Knowing speed - can't notice small changes in speed. I am sure my entry speeds are way too high - but they seem slow.
Only reason I brake is because I know it is too fast. My senses do not say too fast. Hell driving into most corners at full speed do not seem fast until the tires give way. It just does not look fast.
Really can't judge how much speed adjustments are lap after lap.

What ABS setting do you use?

How do you judge speed? Position?

FWIW I find learning tracks in the video game takes me much longer than doing it for real.

I guess I will keep trying and see if I can figure this out. You guys don't seem to want to share your secrets

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

Hi Brian,

I'll try to answer the way I do things. First off, I use bumper cam, which gives a bit more sense of speed. Sometimes I use braking points, sometimes I dont.. on the Abarth combo, I find the fastest speeds in KM/H that I can take a corner then try to stay around that. Transmission to manual will ways be faster. Especially this combo where 5th is not needed and you rev really high into 4th.

For track positioning, on bumper cam, I use just inside of the tach and rpm gauges as where my car is..

ABS is on.

Hope any of this helps

 

[Gravitron]

@tzracer Brian,

Was hoping @EDK might chime in, since he's taught me a ton, and has real world racing experience and can talk to the many differences between real and the game.

Similar to @ItsAllAboutWins and probably most of us in WRS, ABS Default (on) will be fastest and allow you to brake 100% pedal-travel consistently. I usually use the flashing red gear indicator as a vague suggestion for where the brakepoint for the next corner is, and after I know the vague location I'll try to find a trackside object to use.

I also agree with him that manual is the way to go, and looking at the car's power/torque curves usually gives a good idea whether to short shift or wind it out. Also, bumper cam.

I can't look at the speedometer in the middle of a turn like he can, so I guess the way I gauge speed is just by feel, which comes with hours and hours of practice, trying different lengths of time for holding the brake, different ways of releasing the brake, etc.

Other things that have helped me get faster over the 9 years I've been doing WRS:
- Talking to other guys on party chat to get tips
- Taking turns leading and following someone faster than you in an online lobby, or using the Spectate function to ride along with them
- Studying replays of others after an event that you put a good effort into, paying attention to their gas/brake/steering/lines/gear-choices.

For reference, I have zero experience driving vehicles on the limit in the real world. The only thing close is that I've been a passenger on a couple laps of The Nordschleife in a BMW 3 series with a friend driving who knew what he was doing.

 

[EDK]

I guess I will keep trying and see if I can figure this out. You guys don't seem to want to share your secrets

That's for sure not the case.

I also race in real life. Not a lot of time to provide detail here, but main thing is running laps and getting used to the physics.

The Fiat combo is a weird one to learn to be fast with, but I am going to take your questions to be more general.

Both for sense of speed and car positioning, I think the bumper cam is best. The gauges on the HUD tend to be an indicator of car position. And the camera close to the track helps with sense of speed. What view are you using now?

What force feedback settings are you using? Sensitivity needs to be high enough that you can feel what the car is doing.

I will watch some of your replays later today when I am on, as that will be the easiest way for me to give you advice on how to improve.

 

[tzracer]

Thanks for the help. Managed to drop .7 seconds. Did it while telling my teenage daughter why I was not going to buy her a $200 bean bag chair. Maybe she needs to bother me more (did I really say that).

I have always used the bumper cam, closest to a motorcycle.

Not used to using gauges much. Motocross and kart did not have any. Roadracing your head is not always in a place to see them.
Will try to use them for position, when concentrating, I tend not to notice them, don't look that low on the screen. Will work on that for position. Do you look that low on the screen while apexing?

I think the G27 is emulating a controller. I have been playing with settings. I can adjust Controller sensitivity (4), FF max torque (6), FF sensitivity(8).

Trying to slow earlier, to get better drive, if you could call it that with the Fiat. It is about as fast as my wife's 250 Ninja (28hp - 105mph) at Road America.

Umm, I have deleted the older replays to save room. Only one is the Mercedes.

 

[Gravitron]

Umm, I have deleted the older replays to save room. Only one is the Mercedes.

The ones you and the rest of us have shared for past WRS's are still available, regardless of whether you delete them on your end.

I'll reiterate that they are great learning tools, just go to Discover section, Replays, Search, and enter gtpwrsXXX in the 1st tag.

 

[tzracer]

The ones you and the rest of us have shared for past WRS's are still available, regardless of whether you delete them on your end.

I'll reiterate that they are great learning tools, just go to Discover section, Replays, Search, and enter gtpwrsXXX in the 1st tag.

Thanks will give that a try. Something to do while sitting at volleyball practice.

 

[EDK]

I think the G27 is emulating a controller. I have been playing with settings. I can adjust Controller sensitivity (4), FF max torque (6), FF sensitivity(8).

I ran a GIMX during the beta, but off PC, not raspberry Pi. You still should be able to have it emulate a G29, that's how I had mine setup.

Your settings look good, but you might be able to use lower FFB. The only thing is that's very specific to the wheel, and if there's some wear and tear on your G27, the higher setting might be needed. My notes from your replays will suggest you can turn in more aggressively, and lower FFB would help with that. The drawback is losing some feel.

Not used to using gauges much. Motocross and kart did not have any. Roadracing your head is not always in a place to see them.
Will try to use them for position, when concentrating, I tend not to notice them, don't look that low on the screen. Will work on that for position. Do you look that low on the screen while apexing?

Some notes from your past replays.

I watched the 2 BMW combos, the E46 M3 at Gardens and the Z4 Gr. 3 at Maggiore East.


One thing I looked at was your minimum speed at apex in the E46, and compared to mine. My lap was right at 2 seconds faster.

Yours
52
65
63
79
40
62
58
95

Mine
50
65
70
80
41
67
56
92

One thing I like to do while watching replays is to watch in my driving view, and act as if I am running live. It quickly points out to you how the actions of the other driver differ from your own. When the car does something you are not expecting, it's an area to improve (if you are watching a faster replay).

In general, you are driving tentatively. I don't mean for that to be offensive, but it's the best description have. Being smooth is one thing, and is important. But being decisive is also very important.

So your cornering technique needs some work.

In general, you seem to be carrying in a little less speed that most fast drivers do, and you are turning in late. Get the car pointed and the weight transfer happening, trail brake in, use your brake release to aid in rotating the car. Then begin throttle on, you should be able to QUICKLY get to ~80% throttle in almost anything, and then manage the remainder of the throttle application according to wheel angle. Once the wheel is straight, you can be flat out. At times, sooner. Turn 1/2 in the E46 I was flat before the second apex, and you did something like 30% maintenance throttle until you crossed it.

In general, you are going into corners slower than I would like to see, turning in too tentatively, not properly trail braking and releasing brake to rotate the car, and using too much mid corner maintenance throttle, which at times has you with HIGHER minimum apex speeds than a faster lap.

It looks to me like you don't quite know -

1. How to drive at the lateral grip limit. This involves over-driving the car to understand WHERE the limit is.
2. When you can get away with being flat out, which also involves over doing it to understand what you can get away with.

That's all I have time for at the moment. But keep in mind, we are running these events online on Sunday, I am hosting.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ails-in-post-377.390771/page-13#post-13009969

If you have time to come out for one, I am happy to follow you and have you follow me during warm up time to be able to provide advice and feedback.

I realize I am being direct here, so again, please don't take offense.

I really don't want to see you quit. The WRS has actually enabled me to race in real life, the opposite path of most. I think we can help you improve your driving both virtually and on the track.

Hope this helps, can provide more details when I have time (I am opening the online lobby right now).


Kevin

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

Yeah, dont be afraid to fling that bitch in there and see what happens.

That's what I'm doing on Turn 1 of the fiat. As soon as the wall on the right ends (in bumper cam) I fling it in hard right then just kinda feel on what needs to happen with just a minuscule amount of brake.. I dont stare at my speed, but when I hit the apex I glance down to see what it's at. 130 kmh on turn 1 apex. Full throttle at the apex. Also, half the car in the grass where that Brazilian wax job of a rumble strip is will pull your car more right.


Edit: what in the world is raspberry Pi? I'll admit, I thought he was eating pie while he raced and thought I'm more of a peach cobbler man myself.. so I googled it.

What's this doohickey do?

 

[EDK]

Yeah, dont be afraid to fling that bitch in there and see what happens.

That's what I'm doing on Turn 1 of the fiat. As soon as the wall on the right ends (in bumper cam) I fling it in hard right then just kinda feel on what needs to happen with just a minuscule amount of brake.. I dont stare at my speed, but when I hit the apex I glance down to see what it's at. 130 kmh on turn 1 apex. Full throttle at the apex. Also, half the car in the grass where that Brazilian wax job of a rumble strip is will pull your car more right.


Edit: what in the world is raspberry Pi? I'll admit, I thought he was eating pie while he raced and thought I'm more of a peach cobbler man myself.. so I googled it.

View attachment 889389

What's this doohickey do?

It replaced the need for a PC in the GIMX setup. It's a very basic computer that can be preloaded for tasks.

 

[ItsAllAboutWins]

It replaced the need for a PC in the GIMX setup. It's a very basic computer that can be preloaded for tasks.

Interesting.. my wife is a weather nut.. could I buy this little thing, load windows on it, download Chrome, set it to weather.gov with a refresh plugin and have it run 24/7 while outputting it to a dedicated monitor?

(Yay for unnecessary detail)

 

[tzracer]

Edit: what in the world is raspberry Pi? I'll admit, I thought he was eating pie while he raced and thought I'm more of a peach cobbler man myself.. so I googled it.

What's this doohickey do?

You kids need to get out more!

I discovered that eating pi was slowing me down, but scotch sped me up.

A Raspberry Pi is a very basic computer. Stripped down mother board with a processor chip. A really basic, cheap computer ~$30. I use it to run the emulator software for my G27 since the Aholes at Sony decided to make it not compatible with the PS4.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/what- is-a-raspberry-pi/

 

[EDK]

You kids need to get out more!

I discovered that eating pi was slowing me down, but scotch sped me up.

A Raspberry Pi is a very basic computer. Stripped down mother board with a processor chip. A really basic, cheap computer ~$30. I use it to run the emulator software for my G27 since the Aholes at Sony decided to make it not compatible with the PS4.

https://www.raspberrypi.org/help/what- is-a-raspberry-pi/

I knew what it was.

 

[tzracer]

Your settings look good, but you might be able to use lower FFB. The only thing is that's very specific to the wheel, and if there's some wear and tear on your G27, the higher setting might be needed. My notes from your replays will suggest you can turn in more aggressively, and lower FFB would help with that. The drawback is losing some feel.

FFB torque or FFB sensitivity?
Thinking of a new wheel (Fanatic), but may wait until PS5 and hopefully VR for the whole game.

In general, you are driving tentatively. I don't mean for that to be offensive, but it's the best description have. Being smooth is one thing, and is important. But being decisive is also very important.

So your cornering technique needs some work.

In general, you seem to be carrying in a little less speed that most fast drivers do, and you are turning in late. Get the car pointed and the weight transfer happening, trail brake in, use your brake release to aid in rotating the car. Then begin throttle on, you should be able to QUICKLY get to ~80% throttle in almost anything, and then manage the remainder of the throttle application according to wheel angle. Once the wheel is straight, you can be flat out. At times, sooner. Turn 1/2 in the E46 I was flat before the second apex, and you did something like 30% maintenance throttle until you crossed it.

In general, you are going into corners slower than I would like to see, turning in too tentatively, not properly trail braking and releasing brake to rotate the car, and using too much mid corner maintenance throttle, which at times has you with HIGHER minimum apex speeds than a faster lap.

It looks to me like you don't quite know -

1. How to drive at the lateral grip limit. This involves over-driving the car to understand WHERE the limit is.
2. When you can get away with being flat out, which also involves over doing it to understand what you can get away with.

Too many years on motorcycles. High corner speed, late apex, smooth throttle to keep rear tire from sliding too much due to corner speed.
Will work on it, but this is the problen I am having figuring out exactly where I am and what (yaw) the car is doing. Lack of tire sensation I get with a real car. In game cars do some weird gyrations that I do not understand, especially on brake release. My car (128i - fast enough to be fun, slow enough to stay out of jail) does nothing like this, even when not being smooth with the brakes.

You don't see all the laps I spend in the gravel trap. I need to figure out how to figure out what the game is telling me. My aggressive turn ins end up with too much understeer. Too much entry speed? More agressive on a motorcycle, is more entry speed, which requires more agressive push on the bars.

That's all I have time for at the moment. But keep in mind, we are running these events online on Sunday, I am hosting.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ails-in-post-377.390771/page-13#post-13009969

If you have time to come out for one, I am happy to follow you and have you follow me during warm up time to be able to provide advice and feedback.

Wow, cool thanks. I may take you up on this. Can't do this week or next week.

I realize I am being direct here, so again, please don't take offense.
I really don't want to see you quit. The WRS has actually enabled me to race in real life, the opposite path of most. I think we can help you improve your driving both virtually and on the track.

Hope this helps, can provide more details when I have time (I am opening the online lobby right now).


Kevin

Don't worry I do not take any offense.

I am a scientist and teach (college). I am very direct with very thick skin. It is much easier to learn from someone else than figure it out yourself. I used to work at a motorcycle riding school as an instructor.

I spend time trying to use red and blue arrows, but maybe I am just trying to maximize a suboptimal line. Finding lines in a video game is going to take me time. The earlier apex will be difficult.

I have no problems with real world driving, I go plenty fast already.

After spending around $250 to $300,000 racing, I am not getting back into it. The racing is fun, but the rest of it gets old. Retired in 2008 riding in an ambulance after crashing at Barber (2nd severe concussion).

Again, thanks.

Brian

 

[suprajef]

I'll chime in tomorrow

 

[EDK]

FFB torque or FFB sensitivity?

Low torue, high sensitivity seems to provide the best feel. I think part of your slow turn in is the high wheel torque. It's not really an early apex, per se. More just getting the weight transferring sooner, and with more urgency.

You don't see all the laps I spend in the gravel trap. I need to figure out how to figure out what the game is telling me. My aggressive turn ins end up with too much understeer. Too much entry speed? More agressive on a motorcycle, is more entry speed, which requires more agressive push on the bars.

Yes, I would say if you have understeer with more aggressive turn in it could be entry speed. You had 2 corners that were much too slow in the BMW, but then in the last 2 corners, you had a faster minimum corner speed than mine. So the chicane there is a good example. You entered too slowly (62 MPH vs. 67 MPH for my lap). Then you carried too much speed through the next left. And you also tried to carry too much into the final corner, which as I recall caused you to miss the apex by a couple feet.

Wow, cool thanks. I may take you up on this. Can't do this week or next week.

I think the combo we are running beginning next week (TT goes up on 2/16) will be good for this. The race will be on 2/23, it's at 2 pm in your Central time zone. If you can't make that day, we are usually on Friday nights for a few hours as well.

Don't worry I do not take any offense.

I am a scientist and teach (college). I am very direct with very thick skin. It is much easier to learn from someone else than figure it out yourself. I used to work at a motorcycle riding school as an instructor.

Good. 👍

You generally have decent lines and you are doing a lot of things right. It's really the initial turn in technique, the brake release, and most important the throttle application. You are stretching that out over most of the corner, and it needs to be more sudden.

EDIT: And BTW, I do think this is very much a motorcycle vs. car thing. I really don't manage throttle on much differently in the game than in real life. If anything, I am MORE aggressive IRL.

This is the throttle trace from my fast lap at The Ridge in the MR2. And we were running on kind of crappy tires, so I was a little less aggressive than normal. (Unfortunately, the audio is out of sync in this video).

 

[EDK]

How do you judge speed?
With no peripheral view, can't really judge speed. Can't judge entry speed, really hard to try changes in speed if all seems the same. Virtually all cars seem really slow to me, causing me to enter too fast (at least that is what I think).

How do you judge turn in, brake points etc?
When I raced I rarely used markers (brake, turn in). Josh Hayes (multi time US super bike champion) said it best, "I brake, turn, get on the gas when it looks right".
Does not seem to translate well to video games. Looking deep (when possible) through corners also doesn't seem to work well either.

Addressing these specific points.

I use the cone markers in the game. Being consistent with braking points and adjusting to fixed markers is important. The game is not going to give you the correct sense of speed. For me, that translated to how I manage this in real life, although I recognize there are peripheral indicators that are not available on the game. That's just how it is.

I tend to pick a starting point and then adjust to that according to how the car behaves. And use the on screen time indicator to help me understand when I am doing it right.

How do you judge tire grip, car rotation (about yaw axis)?
The wheel feedback is nothing like a real steering wheel. For me, it really doesn't tell me much.
I try to use tire sounds, but they seem more reactive than proactive. When is it squeal and when is it slide? Motorcycle tires only make noise when you are in trouble. Also, I tend to shut off my hearing when I concentrate, I stop hearing the tires if I really concentrate.

I would say I get most of this in the wheel feedback when I am on the limit. More in the braking section here, but proper trail braking and a gradual release of the brake at turn in is important. Almost nothing on here is "release and roll", but rather trail brake in and then transition back to throttle input right away. As I load the car up laterally, I can normally feel some feedback, and if the car starts to step out, the wheel will over rotate and you will need to countersteer and/or throttle correct.

Transmission
I tend to use automatic. For me, manual makes me think too much about shifting. It does not feel natural. Not every shift takes place at red line. I short shift some shifts at every track I have raced. The game does not seem to work the same way. Hard for me, when I can't feel the acceleration of the car.

You need to switch to manual so you can pick your shift points and the gear you use. Often, staying in a higher gear is better. Sometimes cars like to be short shifted, or wound all the way to the limiter. Highly dependent on the power curve and where it peaks.

You will be faster right away if you change.

Brakes
Don't think I have to say much here. Nothing like the real thing. I rode bikes that rewarded late braking, trail braking and high corner speed. Hurts more than helps.

GT Sport definitely does not reward late braking, exit speed is at a premium. But trail braking is extremely important. I tend to manage my brake release as I make my way to apex and use the brake to rotate the car as I am releasing it. Basically, balancing between brake release and steering input, and then using the throttle to complete the rotation and make the corner at speed.

Example this week in the Fiat. The final sector, you want to use the brakes to steer the car into that double right, and through the final chicane. I am on the brakes while turning in, but partial pressure, so basically a trailing technique. If I am off the brakes, the car just understeers.

The brake zones on GT ARE much longer than real life. I race mainly road cars with no ABS, so that brings it's own challenges. But in general, braking on the earlier side and optimizing exit will reward you most on GT Sport.

 

[EDK]

This combo/video does a good job of representing what I am talking about with the cornering process. Proper braking, turn in, brake release, throttle application. Note that the time from brake release to throttle is very short, basically once the car bites I am on the gas partially, 50% throttle very quickly, and gradually feed it in while winding out lock.

 

[tzracer]

Thanks. See what you mean. I tend to get off earlier and pick up throttle, which seems to cause more under steer, limiting when I can get on the gas hard, ruining drive. Also, the way I brake, BB does not do much. I can see where for you it would make a bigger difference.

I just have to undo a couple decades of hard work.

Need to work on - carry brakes later, back on gas more aggressively as easing off brakes.

 

[EDK]

Also, the way I brake, BB does not do much. I can see where for you it would make a bigger difference.

Yes, I adjust BB and normally go with small numbers toward the side that's working. Normally, - BB helps with cars that oversteer, while positive helps with cars that understeer. There can be some exceptions to that. But one thing I notice, which is completely unrealistic, is that the BB setting tends to also influence mid corner handling when you are not on the brakes. It's........weird.

I just have to undo a couple decades of hard work.

I prefer to call it "suspending reality".

There are some tricks and habits on the game that I try to avoid, as I don't want to introduce them into real life.

 

[Philtaylor17]

It does sound like you are driving as if you are riding a bike still. Having grown up on GT as a kid and then raced some supermoto its kinda the other way around for me, and while there are many crossovers, there are also plenty of differences. Do you race with ghost on? Very visual way of realising where you are losing time.

If you are struggling for consistency while learning a new track, maybe also try the cone markers and racing line, they will be good guides until you learn the track in your head.

 

[tzracer]

I do not like the ghost, find it really distracting. Spend time trying to go around it.

I have turned all the racing line guides. Don’t necessarily follow the line, but gives me a better sense of where I am.

I watched Kevin’s on board at Road America. His lines were quite a bit different in some areas compared to a motorcycle. Some may be due to difference in speed and lap time.

 

[tzracer]

Thanks for all the help. Everyone has given me things to think about and try. Will try to watch more replays when I have time

The TT at Willow was more fun. I was much more consistent. Could run strings of laps within 3 or 4 tenths.

Thanks.

 

[EDK]

Thanks for all the help. Everyone has given me things to think about and try. Will try to watch more replays when I have time

The TT at Willow was more fun. I was much more consistent. Could run strings of laps within 3 or 4 tenths.

Thanks.

Glad it's working better.

Offer still stands to run online next week, let me know.