Need some advice.

[ACGreen86]

Hello out there GTP. I come to you with a question, and humbly ask for your assistance. A tiny bit of background about me: I am an aspiring drifter, who prefers cars that are lightweight with low power. I drift slow and smooth, which most of my friends hate. For me, it's the style that matters, not the speed.

OK, now for the car. I have a Celica XX 2800GT 81' that has been giving me some trouble. For those who don't know, the stats are as follows: FR, 299hp, 1054kg, 65-35 weight balance. I will post my tune at the bottom.

My question is, how do I get this car to drift wider circles, without having to shallow my angle. In every other car I drift, I know that at certain curves I can have certain angles. In this car, I have to run a much more shallow angle in order to clear the curve. I am NOT a pro, but even I could notice the difference. This car handles VERY differently from my other cars, and I'm not sure why. It almost feels the way MR cars feel, but I know that that cannot be right.

The other thing is, the car very much wants to straighten itself out while drifting. I set my cars to have only front brakes, and with all my other cars I can use the brakes during drifts, which causes the back of the car to rotate around. With the Celica, using the brakes causes the car to straighten out which is infuriating to me since that was a key point in my drift style. I've tried all manner of toe combinations to get this problem solved with no results...

I hope that you can help GTP. I very much want to drift the Celica, mainly because I LOVE that body style, and the straight six engine. Thank you for reading my request.

EDIT: Updating the tune as it changes so that you can see what I'm working with here.
Last change was Gonales suggestion of LSD Decel and FastFox suggestion of Brake Bias:
All upgrades
Weight balance: 65-35 -no ballast
LSD: 5-60-60
Susp:
Height: -10mm -10mm
Springs: 9.0 6.0
Damps: 4 4 both comp and ext
Anti-roll: 3 3
Camb: 2.2 0.3
Toe: +0.02 +0.10
Brakes: 1 6
Tires: CH only
ABS: 1

 

[Aquarelle]

My only suggestion right now would be run lower rear camber, adding more rear camber will only reduce your controllability mid corner. I personally run .3 at maximum however most people run a max of .5.

Everything else seems pretty standard, are you on a wheel or a stick? if you're on a wheel maybe try 0.02 0.10 toe angle - having toe out at the front increases front grip and gives better steering feel, however having too much will begin inducing understeer (Which isn't really a bad thing with a 65-35 balance)

I can't drift right now as it's 5 am and the Mrs is asleep with a raging headache, don't think she'd appreciate my wheel flying around right now but I will play around with your car later on to actually figure out the problem rather than just looking at the numbers.

 

[twitcher]

The first thing that jumps out at me about your tune is your diff settings, particularly the initial torque.

From my understanding, initial torque is the difference in torque levels between the rear wheels required to lock the diff. In other words, a low initial torque will cause the diff to lock quickly, while a high initial torque will cause the diff to lock more slowly. The slower the diff locks (ie the more "open" the diff is), the more grip the rear end will have.

Because your Celica is rather low on the power and torque scales, I would suggest running a muh lower initial setting, somewhere between 5 to 20. This should make the car feel much less "grippy". The case may be that with your current settings, the motor may not be able to produce enough torque to lock the diff with an initial setting of 60. This would cause the diff to be open almost all the time, which adds a ton of grip to the rear. Your discription of the cars handling characteristics (lots of grip, shallow angle) all seem to match up with the characteristics of runnin a very open diff.

Anyways, that's where I would start. Give it a try and let me know how it goes.

 

[ACGreen86]

@Husky - Thanks for the info man. I'm running stick since I broke my DFGT almost 2 years ago (damned hooks that keep it on the desk snapped). I'll try lowering my camber a bit like you said.

@Twitcher - Well that just brings up more questions than it answers... If what you say about the LSD is true, then how am I able to use that exact same setup to get wider drifts with more angle using cars with less HP and Torque? The only difference between this tune and the one I use on my 2000GT Skyline 71' is the spring rate, which I set based on the weight balance. The Skyline is set at 8.5 and 6.5... I'm so confused. T_T Either way I'll definitely give it a try and see how it goes.

 

[ACGreen86]

Thanks for the help guys. I've been trying the car after Twitcher and Huskys advice. Definitely an improvment so far. I'm still having trouble with my brakes though... Perfect example is on Special Stage 5. Coming up to the hairpin on the cobblestones, I always shift into it using the brakes to get myself setup for it. I just can't do the same entry using the Celica. It straightens itself out every time.

 

[twitcher]

To be completely honest, diff tuning in GT5 one of the most difficult things to understand. It still confuses the crap out of me. The explanation I gave in my first post is the one that makes the most sense to me, but I'm am far from 100% certain it is completely accurate.

My understanding of diff tuning in GT5 comes from reading through dozens of posts on it. The two people who were able to offer the best explanations (at least that made sense to me) were TwinTurboCH, and Lock2Lock (and the Nem boys too!!).

From my research on GTP, I have come across two satisfactory, yet contradictory explinations of how the GT5 LSD works.

Explanation #1:

Initial - this represents the difference in torque between the left and right wheels required for the diff to lock. The lower the number, the quicker the diff locks. The higher the number, the greater the torque difference must be in order to for the diff to lock.

Accel - this represents the degree of lock between the left and right wheels once the diff locks itself. A higher number forces the two wheels to rotate at closer to the same speeds (which causes less grip), while a lower number allows the two wheels to rotate more indepently of each other (which causes more grip).

Decel - same as Accel, only under negative acceleration circumstances.


Explanation #2:

Initial - this represents the amount of lock that is pre-loaded into the diff under normal driving conditions. Even in a completely open diff, there will be some lock caused by the mechanical resistance of the moving parts. Additionally, with a real life LSD, you can adjust the "pre load" on the diff by opening it up and using wedges to either increase or decrease pressure on the clutch plates inside the diff. This allows you to tune in a certain amount of lock, even when the LSD is open (which will add some understeer under normal driving conditions, useful for helping control tail happy cars).

Accel - this represents the torque difference between the left and right wheels required to lock the diff under acceleration conditions. The lower the number, the quicker the diff will lock.

Decel - same as Accel, but under negative acceleration.



As you can see, the main difference between the two explanations is that the Initial of Ex 1 is the same as the Accel/Decel in Ex 2. The Initial in Ex 2 allows an aspect of control not available in Ex 1 (the ability to control the preload on the diff). The Accel/Decel in Ex 1 allow an aspect of control not available in Ex 2 (the ability to control the degree of lock once the diff locks).


As you can see, it's all a mess lol. I think I have it figured out in my head, but am not sure. Sorry for kind of going off topic.

 

[ACGreen86]

Not a problem Twitch, and I greatly appreciate your explanation. It might come in handy, not just for me but others as well.

 

[Gonales]

To be completely honest, diff tuning in GT5 one of the most difficult things to understand. It still confuses the crap out of me. The explanation I gave in my first post is the one that makes the most sense to me, but I'm am far from 100% certain it is completely accurate.

My understanding of diff tuning in GT5 comes from reading through dozens of posts on it. The two people who were able to offer the best explanations (at least that made sense to me) were TwinTurboCH, and Lock2Lock (and the Nem boys too!!).

From my research on GTP, I have come across two satisfactory, yet contradictory explinations of how the GT5 LSD works.

Explanation #1:

Initial - this represents the difference in torque between the left and right wheels required for the diff to lock. The lower the number, the quicker the diff locks. The higher the number, the greater the torque difference must be in order to for the diff to lock.

Accel - this represents the degree of lock between the left and right wheels once the diff locks itself. A higher number forces the two wheels to rotate at closer to the same speeds (which causes less grip), while a lower number allows the two wheels to rotate more indepently of each other (which causes more grip).

Decel - same as Accel, only under negative acceleration circumstances.


Explanation #2:

Initial - this represents the amount of lock that is pre-loaded into the diff under normal driving conditions. Even in a completely open diff, there will be some lock caused by the mechanical resistance of the moving parts. Additionally, with a real life LSD, you can adjust the "pre load" on the diff by opening it up and using wedges to either increase or decrease pressure on the clutch plates inside the diff. This allows you to tune in a certain amount of lock, even when the LSD is open (which will add some understeer under normal driving conditions, useful for helping control tail happy cars).

Accel - this represents the torque difference between the left and right wheels required to lock the diff under acceleration conditions. The lower the number, the quicker the diff will lock.

Decel - same as Accel, but under negative acceleration.



As you can see, the main difference between the two explanations is that the Initial of Ex 1 is the same as the Accel/Decel in Ex 2. The Initial in Ex 2 allows an aspect of control not available in Ex 1 (the ability to control the preload on the diff). The Accel/Decel in Ex 1 allow an aspect of control not available in Ex 2 (the ability to control the degree of lock once the diff locks).


As you can see, it's all a mess lol. I think I have it figured out in my head, but am not sure. Sorry for kind of going off topic.

I'm going to put it really simple. His diff is close to perfect, because I have been using the same setup for 2 years, and so have other Burst members. There is nothing wrong with it, thus it can not be the issue. (This is something I'm willing to bet my life on.)

Initial Torque works like you explained it in Explanation 2. It takes the incoming torque from the driveshaft, and locks the wheels accordingly. (Although, I could be mistaken here.)
Back to OP:
"To answer ACGreen's question to you: How come you can get more angle, or wider drifts with other cars? "

That has nothing to do with the differential, but more with weight of the car, wheel base, traction etc etc.


I'd say, your problems with braking come from 2 things. First of all, as you're lifting off, I expect the car to gain traction with that HP. With that brake balance, even though you have resistance up front because of the braking, the car is just too heavy in the front?

I hope my 'way of thinking' helped you. Try shifting the weight around, see what it does to the braking? If it hasn't, I'm sorry I could not have been of more help. I know for certain the differential is not at fault here though.

 

[ACGreen86]

So having so much weight up front is causing the car straighten under braking? Well... that's going to be a tough one to get around.

 

[Gonales]

So having so much weight up front is causing the car straighten under braking? Well... that's going to be a tough one to get around.

It's something that I *think* (keyword) could be the problem. If it is not, than... Well, it is not the differential either.

 

[twitcher]

I'm going to put it really simple. His diff is close to perfect, because I have been using the same setup for 2 years, and so have other Burst members. There is nothing wrong with it, thus it can not be the issue. (This is something I'm willing to bet my life on.)

Initial Torque works like you explained it in Explanation 2. It takes the incoming torque from the driveshaft, and locks the wheels accordingly. (Although, I could be mistaken here.)
Back to OP:
"To answer ACGreen's question to you: How come you can get more angle, or wider drifts with other cars? "

That has nothing to do with the differential, but more with weight of the car, wheel base, traction etc etc.


I'd say, your problems with braking come from 2 things. First of all, as you're lifting off, I expect the car to gain traction with that HP. With that brake balance, even though you have resistance up front because of the braking, the car is just too heavy in the front?

I hope my 'way of thinking' helped you. Try shifting the weight around, see what it does to the braking? If it hasn't, I'm sorry I could not have been of more help. I know for certain the differential is not at fault here though.

Edit: I wrote a big long response...but I think we've been tricked Dom

When I read AC's OP this morning, his diff setting read 60/60/35. It now reads 5/60/35. My suggestion was for him to lower the Initial...which he did, thus bringing his diff settings more in line with what you normally suggest for people to use (5/60/60)

I still maintain that non of us fully understand what mechanical properties the 3 adjustable LSD values represent.

Edit 2: I've been thinking about this LSD thing all day, and I think my two explanations were wrong. I think it's actually a combo of the 2. I think the LSD works by the description of Initial from Ex 2, and by the description of Accel/Decel from Ex 1

 

[ACGreen86]

Oh, sorry about that twitch. Yes, I've been updating the Tune on the OP as I change it according to everyones suggestions.

 

[fastfox400]

The braking balance controller in this game is flawed. Due to the front heavy weight balance of the car you are creating understeer which in turn is actually causing the front wheels to lock up and slide. On cars that are front heavy I tend to rely more on rear braking force to limit rear wheel spin and slide. It will help get the weight in the right spot for the given speed. For example on my nose heavy premium mustang I run 4/9 brake balance to help get the car to slide more fluently on entry which also helps maintain more speed thru the corner..

Also with running a 5/60/35 you actually hurting yourself under braking because its trying to stop both wheels equally. Under braking you want the inside rear tire to reduce wheel speed quicker than the outside tire..

 

[Gonales]

Edit: I wrote a big long response...but I think we've been tricked Dom

When I read AC's OP this morning, his diff setting read 60/60/35. It now reads 5/60/35. My suggestion was for him to lower the Initial...which he did, thus bringing his diff settings more in line with what you normally suggest for people to use (5/60/60)

I still maintain that non of us fully understand what mechanical properties the 3 adjustable LSD values represent.

Edit 2: I've been thinking about this LSD thing all day, and I think my two explanations were wrong. I think it's actually a combo of the 2. I think the LSD works by the description of Initial from Ex 2, and by the description of Accel/Decel from Ex 1

Well, that's some funny stuff right there xD I was like... He is such a good drifter, how can he hate on a setup like that? ;o

Oh, sorry about that twitch. Yes, I've been updating the Tune on the OP as I change it according to everyones suggestions.

You tease...

The braking balance controller in this game is flawed. Due to the front heavy weight balance of the car you are creating understeer which in turn is actually causing the front wheels to lock up and slide. On cars that are front heavy I tend to rely more on rear braking force to limit rear wheel spin and slide. It will help get the weight in the right spot for the given speed. For example on my nose heavy premium mustang I run 4/9 brake balance to help get the car to slide more fluently on entry which also helps maintain more speed thru the corner..

Also with running a 5/60/35 you actually hurting yourself under braking because its trying to stop both wheels equally. Under braking you want the inside rear tire to reduce wheel speed quicker than the outside tire..

Exactly what I thought with the weight of the car. Although I word stuff horribly, but yeah, I guess people are aware of that already.

I'd suggest what Twitch said: 5 60 60. It's the way I brake as well.

 

[ACGreen86]

Thanks again guys (and lady)! I'll be trying the 5 60 60 LSD setup today. As for the brakes, I've never tried a rear heavy brake setup so this will be new for me. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[fastfox400]

It doesnt have to be heavy just more biased to the rear. So if you run 5/0 try 2/4 or 3/5 to start. It will help get the car sideways and help keep it sideways while trail braking mid drift..

 

[Aquarelle]

When I said 0.02 front toe I was meaning positive 0.02, otherwise I would have added a minus

I'll be playing around with your tune today since I have some free time before I get on the road.

Due to the heavy front weight bias you're essentially trying to balance out the oversteer, having toe in at the front will induce it further.

 

[ACGreen86]

Wait... -toe = toe in? O.o I thought it was the other way around!!!
Gah I feel so dumb...
Time to change that tune again.

 

[fastfox400]

Negative toe is toe out. Positive is toe in.

 

[Aquarelle]

1981 Toyota Celica XX 2800GT
Max Power: 297
Weight: 1052
PP: 466

Parts:
No Rigidity Improvement and Semi Racing exhaust, everything else fully upgraded.

Transmission - set max speed to 250 KM/H, don't have time to do a custom gear box for you sorry.

Brake Balance: 2 10

Suspension
Ride Height: -15 -16
Spring Rate: 8.2 7.2
Extension : 6 6
Compress : 4 4
Anti Roll: 3 3

Alignment
Camber 1.8 0.3
Toe 0.03 0.09

Differential
5 60 60

-Notes-

While this tune worked well for me, my style is my own - I make no guarantee that it will fit you, your driving method nor your driving style.

I tuned this car on Grand Valley and Suzuka East.

There is certainly room for improvement, I'm going to install a rigidity improvement to see if I can improve the feel of the car. That being said I found the engines lack of power rather stifling, further adjusting the transmission could help in this aspect.

 

[ACGreen86]

Thank you so much for your help Husky. I am planning on re-testing my Celica tomorrow, since it is late tonight. I'll try your tune as posted and see how that works, and also see if my strategy for drifting is the problem.

Also, as a side note, for someone who regularly drifts a 185HP car, this one is a fire breathing beast of muscle and power. Just saying, this thing is on the high end of power in my book.

Again, thank you so much to everyone for your help and information. I'll be taking everyone's input into consideration for my car and the tune, as well as my drift style for the car.

Nice picture by the way. I love it!

 

[Aquarelle]

Nice picture by the way. I love it!

Just didn't want you complaining about it not getting angle haha.

Don't get me wrong, it certainly goes hard - it's just lacking a smidge of extra power when it really needs it, maybe 20 extra horses would have fixed that (Or if I took the time to really play with the transmission rather than a basic top speed adjustment)

Hope you like it~ took me quite a while to be satisfied with it - I've never worked with a car quite this front heavy, my max is normally 60-40.

 

[JR86]

1981 Toyota Celica XX 2800GT
Max Power: 297
Weight: 1052
PP: 466

Parts:
No Rigidity Improvement and Semi Racing exhaust, everything else fully upgraded.

Transmission - set max speed to 250 KM/H, don't have time to do a custom gear box for you sorry.

Brake Balance: 2 10

Suspension
Ride Height: -15 -16
Spring Rate: 8.2 7.2
Extension : 6 6
Compress : 4 4
Anti Roll: 3 3

Alignment
Camber 1.8 0.3
Toe 0.03 0.09

Differential
5 60 60

-Notes-

While this tune worked well for me, my style is my own - I make no guarantee that it will fit you, your driving method nor your driving style.

I tuned this car on Grand Valley and Suzuka East.

There is certainly room for improvement, I'm going to install a rigidity improvement to see if I can improve the feel of the car. That being said I found the engines lack of power rather stifling, further adjusting the transmission could help in this aspect.

Just tested the car out on Suzuka East and I am quite happy with it. Power was good and felt perfectly adequate to use with the light chassis, gearbox was fine as I could take the esses in 3rd gear no problem and the handling felt nice and balanced. I felt like the front may have been a bit too stiff and maybe that it understeered a bit with fast entries (1st turn of Suzuka) but other than that it felt perfectly fine. Good job Urie, feels quite nice

 

[Aquarelle]

Just tested the car out on Suzuka East and I am quite happy with it. Power was good and felt perfectly adequate to use with the light chassis, gearbox was fine as I could take the esses in 3rd gear no problem and the handling felt nice and balanced. I felt like the front may have been a bit too stiff and maybe that it understeered a bit with fast entries (1st turn of Suzuka) but other than that it felt perfectly fine. Good job Urie, feels quite nice

This car was a constant battle between oversteer midcorner and understeer at corner entry, so I totally see where you're coming from

I did what I could in the hour I had to work on it, thank you very much for the kind words; it truly means a lot

 

[fastfox400]

Urie its a excellent tune.. I tried it myself also. But does seem to be a bit understeery at times, while have excessive oversteer. I did do some suspension tuning that seem to help corner entry along with add a little more lateral grip.

Here are my differences if you'd like to try them.

Ride height: -14 / -17
Spring Rate: 7.7 / 6.7
Extension: 6 / 5
Compression: 4 / 5
roll bar: 3 / 2

Camber: 2.1 F/ .4 R
Toe: .04 F/ .11R

Differential: 5/60/45

 

[bread82]

Nice thread guys. I picked up one of these beasts about a month ago, it was white with the black boot and looked a bit like an AE86's big brother! Stock, it was really understeery, I've not driven a RWD quite like it before.

I've not seen many cars in GT5 with stock 65-35 weight distribution, I wonder if there are any that are more front heavy out there (70-30?).

I'll be trying the tunes posted on this thread with interest.

Cheers,

Bread

 

[Serum]

Have you ever considered not removing all of the weight? I set one up this morning and it did fine with only a stage 1 reduction and minimal suspension changes. Here's what i did:

Stage 1 weight reduction
All power mods
Racing clutch and flywheel
Max lowered height, front and rear
Spring rate 10f 7r
Camber -2.5f 0r
Toe -.15f 0r
Diff 5/10/10

Did nothing else. I think sudden oversteer is in the car's nature because the rear is so light. Give it a shot, g27 tuned.

 

[ACGreen86]

I've been playing around with the car on and off over the last couple weeks. Real life has been busy.

Anyways, I was doing silly things with it when I noticed that if I raise up the front and lower the rear, it handles completely differently. As a matter of fact, it handles exactly the way one of my other (favorite) cars handles!

So I have a new question; what is happening that causes this? Why does raising up the front while lowering the rear cause it to behave so differently?

 

[fastfox400]

It causes the weight to automatically transfer to the rear before it even accelerates. While accelerating it will transfer more weight to the rear. Upon braking the weight takes longer to transfer to the front of the car allowing the car to maintain more traction in the rear.. allowing to understeer less, have slightly more speed through the corner and get rear traction sooner.