No Tire Warmers in 2009

  • Thread starter Thread starter mu22stang
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Is there anything to keep teams from leaving the tires out in the sun?

Nope. It’s what they do everywhere else tyre warmers are banned.

It’s not the same though… Waaaaaaaay lower temps.

Although, what if you used an array of mirrors to concentrate the light? :odd:
 
Ecclestone needs an unforced enema.

Because that's what he's giving F1.

No pit crew? 88 laps on one set of tyres? One tank of fuel?

Unless you want to pay MORE and get robots to do it.
 
Is there anything to keep teams from leaving the tires out in the sun?

simpsons%20sun-jj-001.jpg
 
"No tire warmers in here, sir!"

"Oh, that? We're test-firing the engine on the #3 car just in case Felipe needs to change cars. We've got those tires on the engine-cover to keep it from rattling open." :D

---

Okay, enough of that...

No pit stops? Now that's an intriguing idea. 70 laps of procession at 200 km/h... then a 1 lap 300 km/h dash to the finish... would be epic. Almost as epic as NASCAR. (ducks for cover... :lol: )
 
No pit crew?? Wouldn't that be just like filling your car at Shell/BP etc.?? :odd:

You could just hear the commentary from Martin Brundle now in 2010, "And here comes Lewis Hamilton, pulling into the pits in 2nd position, now just watch Lewis jump out of the McLaren, run to get the fuel hose, attach it to the fuel tank, get PRECISELY 80 litres in it for the next 27 laps to the finish, pull it out then jump back in and take off in under 45 seconds". :p
 
Ecclestone needs an unforced enema.

Because that's what he's giving F1.

No pit crew? 88 laps on one set of tyres? One tank of fuel?

Unless you want to pay MORE and get robots to do it.

That's what F1 has been like for most of its life span. I would love a return to no pitstops. Then the drivers would have to actually pass each other on the track to score points.

I liked Pitstops back in the 80's when there wasn't a speed limit in the pitlane and the fuel went in the car under a lot of pressure. They were exiting. Not healthy though.

Modern pitstops are rubbish and add nothing at all to racing.
 
They allow the car to go harder and faster, and adds a strategy.

They're essential, IMO.
 
They allow the car to go harder and faster, and adds a strategy.

They're essential, IMO.

👍

Can you imagine how dull a 60+ lap race with no pitstops will be? Whilst i hate the fact that pitstops are just about the only place where overtaking happens these days, with modern reliability levels a race with no pitstops is likely to be over within 6 laps of the start, safety car periods excluded.

Infact, that's what we'll probably end up with when they realise the races are getting even duller - dubious calls on sending out the safety car and bunching the field up à la NASCAR or Indycar.
 
How did we end up with "no pitstops", by the way? It was added as a joke - not a serious consideration.


I think the only change required, currently, with pitstops is changing the hoses. After the several failures we had this year, it's time to fix it.
 
To those opposed to banning tire warmers: I thought F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport. Shouldn't the "best drivers in the world" be able to handle driving on cold tires? IndyCar and NASCAR drivers don't crash every time they're on cold tires.

I support a ban on tire warmers. It gives the drivers another chance to show off their skills.
 
I think the only change required, currently, with pitstops is changing the hoses. After the several failures we had this year, it's time to fix it.

Indeed. Also, implement a sensor that disables the engine/tranny from applying power until the hose is out.
 
To those opposed to banning tire warmers: I thought F1 was the pinnacle of motorsport.

There's more to the pinnacle than just drivers. Technology is part of it too.

NASCAR drivers don't crash every time they're on cold tires.

No, they wait until their tyres are warm before they do that.[/joke]

Personally, I don't think they'll have a problem - the F1 drivers find a way around the first corner on normal starts and restarts OK more often than not, and the tyres are quite cool then. No tyre warmers just means they'll have to take a bit more care after pitstops.
 
Roo
There's more to the pinnacle than just drivers. Technology is part of it too.
What's the point of having a World Driver Championship if the technology (such as traction control, launch control, tire warmers) takes drivers' skill out of the equation? For example, automatic transmissions are more advanced than manual transmissions, but who really wants to watch drivers steer a car in D instead of shifting up and down and actually driving the car? And given the current economic conditions, banning tire warmers would also save the teams money.
 
The reverse of your argument: What's the point of having a Constructors Championship if the technology that makes the cars faster gets banned? Driver's competitions exist in A1GP, GP2, F2, F3, and any of the other boring spec-series. F1's purpose, the raison d'etre, is the constructor's championship. That's why we also don't have customer cars since the Concorde agreements.

For that matter, yes, I'd watch a championship with active-suspension, ABS-equipped, traction-controlled and semi-automatic shifting F1 cars with active two-way telemetry and adjustable aerodynamics: Assuming those are the fastest new cars competing, when innovation and advancement exists (even within the rules, even when it's just optimizing your aero), I'll gladly watch it. I don't want that stone-age regulated F1 "in the interests of challenge" that some fans keep proposing: It doesn't make any sense, either.

People keep talking as if warm tyres and semi-automatic gearchanges make cars easier to drive. Surprise, it's not - it's still a featherweight, overpowered single-seater that moves around at speeds far beyond 200km/h. We already don't have traction- and launch-control banned. All those "making it easier" type innovations simply bring a new challenge: How to (ab)use your devices to gain optimal speed from them. Got an active suspension? Fine, the car adjusted itself to the track and offers more grip - now you're the one who has to push harder and exploit it.

Money-saving? It would be like me buying a car that's cheaper by five dollars, but has no airbags: It's not a very big difference in price (because tyre-warmers cost next to nothing, and can be re-used for several seasons), but it makes a lot of difference in safety. And it's not as if they warm tyres up to optimal temperatures: As they leave the pits, they're still rather cool (they cool down during the stop) - it's just less of an issue. Imagine a cloudy, cold, 15-degree track temperature race (and we had some of those this year) - the tyres won't grip at all. Current tyres need over 100 degrees to work!


Here's a place to save money: Wheelnuts. Reportedly, some teams spent a whopping 1000$ per nut this season, since they bought some from a specialized Australian company that makes them out of secret alloys (unobtanium?) making them stronger and lighter than the competition. 1000$ per nut, 1200 nuts per season, 1.2m$ on nuts alone for a season! That's nuts!
 
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Metar speaks the truth. What I like about F1 is the technology. I watch Nascar for the passing.
 
👍

Can you imagine how dull a 60+ lap race with no pitstops will be? Whilst i hate the fact that pitstops are just about the only place where overtaking happens these days, with modern reliability levels a race with no pitstops is likely to be over within 6 laps of the start, safety car periods excluded.

Infact, that's what we'll probably end up with when they realise the races are getting even duller - dubious calls on sending out the safety car and bunching the field up à la NASCAR or Indycar.

We still haven't got onto driver fatigue yet, either.

88 laps pounding an F1 car around is bound to make you a bit sore, the pitstops allow a short break.
 
👍

Can you imagine how dull a 60+ lap race with no pitstops will be? Whilst i hate the fact that pitstops are just about the only place where overtaking happens these days, with modern reliability levels a race with no pitstops is likely to be over within 6 laps of the start, safety car periods excluded.

Infact, that's what we'll probably end up with when they realise the races are getting even duller - dubious calls on sending out the safety car and bunching the field up à la NASCAR or Indycar.

Hey man. I don't know about you but phantom cautions are awsome. Just when the racing is starting to get repetitive letting everyone take a small break, get new rubber and bunch the field up. Whats not to like? But F1 needs a new restart rule, this whole "go as fast as you want but don't pass" thing is BS. Let them pile up and get called back via the start lights.
 
To Metar:

1. Preventing teams from running customer cars has increased costs and driven teams out of F1. F1 will not survive if costs aren't decreased.

2. Launch control and traction control have already been banned in F1. I like technology too, but if you allow too many driver aids, then you cannot possibly call F1 drivers the "best drivers in the world."

3. Drivers can safely race on cold tires if they know how to do it. Bridgestone/Firestone Tires supply both F1 and the IndyCar Series. Bridgestone/Firestone developed an IndyCar tire that can grip at 230 MPH (370 km/h) on a cold day at Indianapolis. They already use what they learn from the IndyCar Series to develop tires for F1 (Example: 2005 USGP). So what exactly is "less safe" about cold tires then if a good IndyCar driver can drive at 230 MPH on cold tires?

4. I'm all in favor of sensible solutions to decrease costs. I would support standardized wheelnuts.
 
The qualifying session has to be changed if they ban tire warmers. I'm interested to see how they do it.

Will the F.I.A also allow burnouts on pit-lane?
 
Why will they have to change it? They already drive a slowish outlap to heat the tyres up.

Hey man. I don't know about you but phantom cautions are awsome. Just when the racing is starting to get repetitive letting everyone take a small break, get new rubber and bunch the field up. Whats not to like? But F1 needs a new restart rule, this whole "go as fast as you want but don't pass" thing is BS. Let them pile up and get called back via the start lights.

Then lets call it "Short Prix Racing", and make it heats of five laps each? That's what phantom cautions are about: Fake spectacle. How dull would it have been for a safety-car to bring Hamilton back to the front in the 2007 Brazilian GP? How many would've cried foul?

The problems we've had with on-track passing were purely mechanical: Drivers actually couldn't pass because the cars were too inefficient in another car's wake. That's supposed to be fixed for next year, so we'll see.

To Metar:

1. Preventing teams from running customer cars has increased costs and driven teams out of F1. F1 will not survive if costs aren't decreased.

Yes, but cutting the budget on a team's refreshments will help more than cutting tire-warmers. It really is a cheap thing by any standard of professional motorsport. As previously said, if BTCC teams can afford it, everyone can.

2. Launch control and traction control have already been banned in F1. I like technology too, but if you allow too many driver aids, then you cannot possibly call F1 drivers the "best drivers in the world."

Why? The fact that a car has more grip, or is capable of using it better, doesn't make things easier on a driver: He then has to adapt to make the most of it - gain more speed. If a driver's job gets easier because he's got traction-control, then he's not worthy of the seat - the real drivers will use that confidence to push the cars harder where they couldn't previously.

Also, I think that surviving years of training and graduating to F1 should instantly qualify you as the best: You still need reflexes, thinking, and raw skill far more than in any other series.

3. Drivers can safely race on cold tires if they know how to do it. Bridgestone/Firestone Tires supply both F1 and the IndyCar Series. Bridgestone/Firestone developed an IndyCar tire that can grip at 230 MPH (370 km/h) on a cold day at Indianapolis. They already use what they learn from the IndyCar Series to develop tires for F1 (Example: 2005 USGP). So what exactly is "less safe" about cold tires then if a good IndyCar driver can drive at 230 MPH on cold tires?

Correction: Drivers can race safely on cold tyres if they push less until they're back in the optimal window.

Remember than an IndyCar slick is a completely different animal to the tyres F1 runs: It has to withstand much less lateral forces (in the road-circuits) or exclusively high speed running (on the ovals). It's all a matter of how wide the tyre's operating-range is, and how it behaves in and out of that range.

Fact is, though, a driver on cold tyres has less grip, and that means it's automatically less safe than a warm, grippier tyre: Not because it means drivers will spin, but because less grip means less means to prevent an accident or other emergencies. The fact that it's also slower has nothing to do with it.
 
Why will they have to change it? They already drive a slowish outlap to heat the tyres up.

well, i mean if it takes a much longer time for the tires to reach optimal temperature's, id like to see what the F.I.A. will do
 
Nothing - drivers will simply be more aggressive on their outlaps, or do two of them like Heidfeld did sometimes this year.
 
To Metar:

1. With traction control, you can slam on the brakes, steer the car into a turn, then floor the throttle because you won't spin out. Without traction control, you have to actually drive the car into a turn while feathering the brake and throttle to try to push. Which requires more skill? Which requires more driver and less car? Which is more entertaining for the fans?

2. Correction: The average driver can only race safely on cold tires if they push less until they're back in the optimal window. The gutsy and great driver will race on cold tires and make the car stick to the track. Racing on cold tires is a skill that separates the best drivers from the rest.
 
1. I agree that banning traction-control is a good idea, I just don't agree with the view that it takes less skill.

2. Racing on cold tyres = racing on worse tyres. It's just like racing a lap on a compound with a worse coefficient of friction: It's slower, and it doesn't matter how big your balls are, you can't beat physics. More skilled drivers will stay on the limit of the cold tyres, but these limits are still lower than those of a heated tyre. If they're not slower on the outlap compared to their heated-tyres pace, then they're not pushing the limits on the warmed tyres.
 
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