numbers and opinions

[drjoe1977]

page number 154 and 155 in the r&t magazine vol 55 num 11 (jul 2004) is their road test sumary. after some reading and comparison i find some interesting points.

just want to compare cars that i find overpriced and that underachieve in performance numbers. i compare some by performance and price.

price engine hp 0-60 0-100 1/4mile g's slalom
1. bmw 530i $54120 i-6 225hp 7.2 19.2 15.5 .83 60.7

comparison:

acura tl $35395 v6 270 6.3 15.9 14.8 .87 65.8
cadillac ctsv $50690 v8 400 5.0 11.4 13.4 .87 66.0
chrysler 300c $37310 v8 340 5.6 13.8 14.1 .79 62.4
infiniti m45 $46175 v8 340 6.1 16.0 14.6 .80 59.9
vw passat w8 $38,450 w8 270 6.8 17.4 15.2 .78 62.0
volvo s80 t6 $48430 i-6t 268 6.7 16.7 15.1 .80 62.3

all this cars cost less and perform better

2. acura nsx $91368 v6 290 5.0 12.0 13.4 .91 65.8

comparison:
bmw m3 $55,815 i-6 333 5.0 12.0 13.5 .87 68.3
corvette zo6 $56,720 v8 405 4.4 9.6 12.7 .94 68.5
viper srt10 $83,795 v10 500 4.1 8.9 12.2 1.04 68.6
lancer evo $30,062 i-4t 271 4.8 12.7 13.4 .88 68.9
911 carrera $78,805 f6 320 4.9 12.2 13.4 .91 67.6

just want some opinions about this info.

 

[Sage]

Just ask Doug. I bet he has all those numbers memorized. Well, the ones from CR anyway.

 

[1X83Z]

Just ask Doug. I bet he has all those numbers memorized. Well, the ones from CR anyway.

Thin ice, Sage. I don't read CR, and sometimes I set fire to bookstores that carry it (just kidding, don't e-mail the police just yet). I read ConsumerGuide, the single greatest anything, ever.

Incidentally, I don't memorize car prices because they change so frequently. Ever wondered why I only quote prices to three significant figures? That's why.

just want some opinions about this info.

Your second example is a no-brainer: the Acura NSX is outclassed by every single vehicle on the market in value, which is why Acura doesn't sell any. In fact, Acura won't even ship them to dealers unless there's an order from a customer. Acura knows this, but they like the thing, they make a huge profit in the rare event that one is actually sold, and it improves their image. Plus, they make so few that their profit margin is pretty good.

The first example though is an interesting one. In my opinion, the BMW 530i is probably the worst vehicle on sale today, relative to its market. I mean, have a look at its segment: nearly every single vehicle has more power and more stuff than it (and than the Mercedes E320) but at an extremely lower price. The best examples of this are the Chrysler 300C and Infiniti M45, two vehicles which are leagues better than the BMW in every comparison except handling and name. Handling, fine - but it's not worth BMW's asking price of $44900. Name is another thing, and you'll find that most BMW owners wouldn't consider anything else, hiding behind "it handles better" or "it's rear-drive" when in reality, they want the BMW name more than anything else. It's not stupid - social status is a huge thing to a lot of people - but they're missing out on some much better cars.

 

[drjoe1977]

nice reply

 

[Joey]

Yeah, I'd buy it just because it's a BMW.
I mean, how can you wear your pimp hat in a Volkswagen Passat and feel good about yourself?

I got a borchure for the 300C in the mail a month or two ago, and I stopped reading after about nine sentences. Because that's where I had to look up and see the thing. Truthfully, it made me smile to see that Chrysler had, despite my constant insistance that such was impossible, made a car more inefficient, uglier, and more unnecessarily bloated than those they already had on the market. I told myself, 'Great! Now those aesthetically insensitive special-interest democrats of engineers can't hang out with Mercedes anymore.' Then I saw one in the parking lot across from a Chrysler dealership today. I hate living here.

Not like you can trust these people's judgement, though.
They even bought Crossfires.

 

[Boost Lee]

Yeah, I'd buy it just because it's a BMW.
I mean, how can you wear your pimp hat in a Volkswagen Passat and feel good about yourself?

I would say %98 of the people who own Passat's don't own a 'pimp hat'.

I have to laugh every time I see the Lancer Evolution's pricetag. Mitsu might be going down the toilet, but the Evo is a phenominal car and one of the few 'real deals' in the automotive world.

 

[1X83Z]

Yeah, I'd buy it just because it's a BMW.

And for that reason - sorry to say it - you're stupid. Gotta love it when people let social status and brand name run their lives. Then you go on to call the Chrysler 300C ugly (or something) just like everyone else does. Congratulations - you can't think for yourself.

 

[Joey]

I'm allowed to be stupid.
I'm a teenager.

Yay for not knowing what I'm talking about!

Although my father, who is very much not a teenager, would actually spend money and buy it just because it's a BMW.

 

[1X83Z]

Although my father, who is very much not a teenager, would actually spend money and buy it just because it's a BMW.

Still stupid.

 

[Race Idiot]

Then you go on to call the Chrysler 300C ugly (or something) just like everyone else does.

You told me it was rubbish and you brainwashed Omar to think the same way. I just don't know what to think anymore. :shakehead:

 

[///M-Spec]

If performance for the price is the best way to judge a car, then buying ANY of those cars on the list makes you an idiot. For most people, there is more to evaluating a car than performance for the money. But if speed for little money is your main goal, you'd be pure stupid to buy new.

Go buy a DSM or Fox body Mustang (or in Monster7's case, an turbo Omni), put in a few grand and you'll blow everything new away for a fraction of the cost.


M

 

[///M-Spec]

Name is another thing, and you'll find that most BMW owners wouldn't consider anything else, hiding behind "it handles better" or "it's rear-drive" when in reality, they want the BMW name more than anything else. It's not stupid - social status is a huge thing to a lot of people - but they're missing out on some much better cars.

Now that is hitting below the belt, Doug. You've really got to take your head out of your ass once in a while and realize you don't know what's best for everyone. It is faintly amusing in small amounts, but this kind of arrogance gets tiresome when you try to pass it off as fact.


M

 

[1X83Z]

You told me it was rubbish and you brainwashed Omar to think the same way. I just don't know what to think anymore. :shakehead:

That isn't a smiley.

I don't know when I told you guys that - last night Omar and I discussed Chrysler's direction and I believe I mentioned that I liked the 300. The base model scares me in its crappiness, but the 300C (with the 5.7L V8) is nice. Chrysler claims it's fuel-efficient, and it's not, really, but it's a decent car anyway. The Dodge Magnum is a different story - I hate the marketing of that car (rednecks) but I guess that's Dodge's direction, while Chrysler's is "upscale." Chrysler doesn't understand, though, that if they're going to go "upscale" they have to drop the midsize four-cylinder sedan and four-cylinder short-wheelbase minivan to be taken seriously.

Now that is hitting below the belt, Doug. You've really got to take your head out of your ass once in a while and realize you don't know what's best for everyone. It is faintly amusing in small amounts, but this kind of arrogance gets tiresome when you try to pass it off as fact.

Yeah, but why? I'm sick of hearing how such-and-such Mercedes or such-and-such BMW or even such-and-such Audi so 'soooo cool.' If these people shopped around a bit, they could get (in a lot of cases) comparable or better thrills, more stuff, more power, etc. The Mazda RX-8 vs. BMW 330Ci coupe, for instance - the Mazda gives you everything the BMW gives including more power and better handling at a lower price. Zillions of people want the BMW name.

 

[Sage]

The Mazda RX-8 vs. BMW 330Ci coupe, for instance - the Mazda gives you everything the BMW gives including more power and better handling at a lower price. Zillions of people want the BMW name.

Oh dear – I thought you hated the RX-8? I'm with Brett and Omar in this one.

 

[1X83Z]

Oh dear – I thought you hated the RX-8? I'm with Brett and Omar in this one.

I personally hate it, but

- it's obviously better than the 330Ci coupe
- it proves my point perfectly: better car without the name

The same comparison could be made between the RX-8 and the CLK320, too - it's not just BMW.

 

[Sage]

Oh, gotcha.

Does that mean you really hate the 330Ci coupe?

 

[1X83Z]

Oh, gotcha.

Does that mean you really hate the 330Ci coupe?

You're not understanding - even though I personally hate the RX-8, it's not a bad car, and it works in this comparison. In 99% of the cases on this website (this one included), I'll keep my personal thoughts out of it and let the facts do the talking. When you saw me bashing on the RX-8 before, it was my own personal ideals about the car getting in the way of my own logic, and the truth about the car.

 

[pimp racer]

Yeah, I'd buy it just because it's a BMW.
I mean, how can you wear your pimp hat in a Volkswagen Passat and feel good about yourself?
.

Just because its a BMW?
Pimp hat?
:ROFL:

 

[///M-Spec]

Yeah, but why? I'm sick of hearing how such-and-such Mercedes or such-and-such BMW or even such-and-such Audi so 'soooo cool.'
Zillions of people want the BMW name.

Tsk tsk, DeMuro. Is that why you have one of each? You're not exactly 'walking the walk' here.

The Mazda RX-8 vs. BMW 330Ci coupe, for instance - the Mazda gives you everything the BMW gives including more power and better handling at a lower price.
<SNIP EDIT>
- it's obviously better than the 330Ci coupe
- it proves my point perfectly: better car without the name

Ah. I see you've finally conceded that the RX-8 is a terrific car --something I've been saying all along. The 8 is down on real world drivability, build quality, refinement and useable interior space compared to 330Ci, but in most regards it is a better deal for the money. It does handle better than the 330Ci, but isn't very much quicker. Does that mean someone willing to shell out the extra money for a more comforatable, luxurious GT car automatically a badge worshipping posuer? That's a stretch.

And a better value doesn't mean "better" overall. Flank steak is a better value than a Porterhouse, but you're not getting a "better" cut of meat.

When you saw me bashing on the RX-8 before, it was my own personal ideals about the car getting in the way of my own logic, and the truth about the car.

And here we all thought you had some kind of total value for the money objectivity thing going on. I guess not. Are you suggesting --GASP- that personal preferences are a valid reason for buying cars?!


M

 

[1X83Z]

Tsk tsk, DeMuro. Is that why you have one of each? You're not exactly 'walking the walk' here.

[/b]

I bought the BMW and the Audi used at astonishing discounts, and there's nothing that rivals my Mercedes. The same can't be said for a 530i owner.

It does handle better than the 330Ci, but isn't very much quicker. Does that mean someone willing to shell out the extra money for a more comforatable, luxurious GT car automatically a badge worshipping posuer? That's a stretch.

No it isn't. The only extra "luxury" you get with the BMW is the idea of "better build quality." Even a full-spec RX-8 6-speed, which has about $6000 more in features than a 330Ci, costs just $32600 - or $4200 less than the BMW. Yes, it's only marginally quicker, but it's still quicker, and it handles much better - so unless you want to pay $4200 extra, wind up with less features (a 330Ci with the RX-8 6-speed w/ Grand Touring Package + navigation system spec would cost about $45000), and get beaten on the track and off the line all for the allure of build quality, perhaps badge plays a role here. A huge role.

And a better value doesn't mean "better" overall. Flank steak is a better value than a Porterhouse, but you're not getting a "better" cut of meat.

"Value" is the term I use. When I say it's a better value, that means in my opinion, it's a better vehicle - choose whatever term you want.

And here we all thought you had some kind of total value for the money objectivity thing going on. I guess not. Are you suggesting --GASP- that personal preferences are a valid reason for buying cars?!

I hate the RX-8, personally. But it's a great value (there's that word once more). So when being objective, I like it. But when being subjective - which is rare - I hate it. The problem is that my subjective side has no facts to base its decision on - so I rarely vocalise it.

 

[///M-Spec]

I bought the BMW and the Audi used at astonishing discounts, and there's nothing that rivals my Mercedes. The same can't be said for a 530i owner.

So? You could have bought a used Chevy Caprice Classic with the 300 hp LT1 Police Interceptor package for far less than the 740i or the A8 and have a "better" car. You can buy 2 Pontiac GTOs for the price of the ultra yuppie CLK55 or just buy one, put barely 10 grand in it and then suck the headlights right out of the Merc.

In fact, every one of the cars in your sig. is from a premium brand you could have skipped if you really were after "value". And don't even get me started on the truck.

Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Corvette. Big names, every one of them. Do you ever take your own advice? You remind me of a preacher who shouts fire and brimstone at the sinners from the pulpit and then kicks back with some Wild Turkey and a copy of Hustler after services are over.

No it isn't. The only extra "luxury" you get with the BMW is the idea of "better build quality." Even a full-spec RX-8 6-speed, which has about $6000 more in features than a 330Ci, costs just $32600 - or $4200 less than the BMW. Yes, it's only marginally quicker, but it's still quicker, and it handles much better - so unless you want to pay $4200 extra, wind up with less features (a 330Ci with the RX-8 6-speed w/ Grand Touring Package + navigation system spec would cost about $45000), and get beaten on the track and off the line all for the allure of build quality, perhaps badge plays a role here. A huge role.

Yep. The RX-8 is a great car at a great price. Nope. The 330Ci still offers more useable interior room and a larger trunk. The 330Ci rides better, has a nicer interior, is more quiet and refined in every way. These are qualities luxury car buyers are after, otherwise Lexus would not exist. Blending performance with luxury is precisely what BMW does and does very, very well.

"Value" is the term I use. When I say it's a better value, that means in my opinion, it's a better vehicle - choose whatever term you want.

Sounds like expert double-speak to me. You should be running for congress

I hate the RX-8, personally. But it's a great value (there's that word once more). So when being objective, I like it. But when being subjective - which is rare - I hate it. The problem is that my subjective side has no facts to base its decision on - so I rarely vocalise it.

So what are you views on Medicare reform, candidate?


M

 

[1X83Z]

So? You could have bought a used Chevy Caprice Classic with the 300 hp LT1 Police Interceptor package for far less than the 740i or the A8 and have a "better" car.

[/b]

More power at a lower price doesn't mean better, or better value. It's all about spec, and, in that class, handling and acceleration. And the existence of an automatic transmission with a manual shifter.

You can buy 2 Pontiac GTOs for the price of the ultra yuppie CLK55 or just buy one, put barely 10 grand in it and then suck the headlights right out of the Merc.

Here you go thinking I can put money into a car again!

In fact, every one of the cars in your sig. is from a premium brand you could have skipped if you really were after "value".

Not with what I wanted on them. And the truck's the best example - nothing else was anywhere near that quick and had anywhere near the off-road ability. Though I secretly wanted a Lincoln Aviator Kitty Hawk Edition - I found one used in California, I think, but I never called or anything. After all, it was a secret.

Audi, Porsche, BMW, Mercedes, Corvette. Big names, every one of them. Do you ever take your own advice?

Not only do I never take my own advice, I never buy cars new! I haven't bought a new car in like a year (which is a period of about eight cars)! And the only part of the market I discuss is new cars! But I'm not exactly on a budget, so I'm willing to pay several thousand dollars extra to get a higher-mileage older car in worse condition just to get Tiptronic. Yum - automanual transmissions.

Sounds like expert double-speak to me. You should be running for congress

So then you come up with a term for it. It could be 'dofkjsdo.' But 'value' is a term everyone already knows, so I use it. I couldn't care what it's called.

So what are you views on Medicare reform, candidate?

Privatize the **** out of it!