On paradigms and iterations

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Rudenut

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So PD is set on this leveling format. It's kind of silly but I've been thinking about how it could be more fun. I drew parallels to other games with character levels and came up with a few ideas.

First I'll examine what makes character level games such as rpg's and action rpg's addicting. One of the biggest things that keeps people coming back is the promise of more loot. This loot rarely takes the form of only currency. Instead it is a mixture of usable items, trade items and currency. Also, frequently this loot drops in a mostly or partially random way. The most important thing in the formula, however, is that the loot is enticing enough to keep people coming back. In many cases the lewt received is relative to the effort applied.

GT5 has adopted this leveling scheme. PD did not, however, apply the other variables of the formula leaving us with a somewhat limited single player experience. This is the age of the interwebs, however, and all is not lost. This can be resolved. Lets see how.

With patches, virtually anything can be added or changed to the game. If PD adopted some of the more traditional aspects of a leveling game (l00t) we can have vast improvements in fun.

For instance, in A-Spec one completes a series against the same cars with the same A.I. every single time. If this were tweeked to become relative to driver level and vehicle it would increase the effort required to complete the task. Alternatively, a simple PP requirement could be placed on the series. I think, however, that improved A.I. dependent on driver level is someone important. Other parameters for the series could remain such as engine configuration (MR, FR, FF, 4wd) and theme (SuperGT, American, European) and so on. I believe including tire limitations is important as well.

There is more to think about in regard to effort and I would be happy to discuss it with community members. However, now we move on to reward (lutz).

I think there is a very simple solution to the lack of relative reward in the game. Random LOOT! (purps). With completion of a series of a particular level a random car could be rewarded that is series level within each tier. Alternatively a few cars could be assigned to each series and randomly given (GT2 Style). This is just the beginning though. With improvements and patches new content can be unlocked with this system as well. For instance, as new RM mods are released they could be attached to the appropriate cars level tier and unlocked as a reward. (Once unlocked an unlimited number could be purchased of course, or not...I kinda like not). Other things like Wheel models and Body panels, wings, and....LIVERY@!!11! could be unlocked in this way.

Now, some might say that this is somewhat grindy or whatever but I think the currency reward should be improved depending on your level as well (since the difficulty should increase as you level).

I have more ideas floating around but they are hard to catch (INTP). Just please remember before flaming me that these ideas are within the leveling paradigm and not necessarily the best solution to making a fun game. Many people do not enjoy this aspect of the game and I understand that. I do like the single player aspect of a game but think this one needs much improvement.

If you are one of the guys that just think all the cars and paints and such should just be available these ideas are not your answer. I don't think that would be such a bad idea for a pure racing game. However, the GT series has always had a career mode and everything has never been available from day one. I'm trying to stay in that ideology.
 
I've been thinking about how it could be more fun.

Impossible. It should be removed ASAP.

PD should go for the exact opposite, take after true sims and give players a completely open mode. No credits, level, earning, etc. Player picks a car, AI, track, and rules. They can string races into championships, etc, save them and also share them with others online. A-Spec becomes infinitely large and PD actually ends up having less work to do.

Of course, some will want the traditional GT Mode. I still think that levels have no place there. They have no real life parallel (though, the same could be said for many things in the game). They are unrelated to skill or ability, they reduce the content available to the player, and force the player to have to go a round about way for no reason. Now if I could bypass them, then I don't care if they're there or not. But if PD is going to insist on making you go through hoops and play GT Mode I don't want anything remotely close to leveling.

Also, I don't understand why a game needs rewards in the first place. Racing is the reward. I feel that if someone needs a prize car to get them to do a race, the game isn't for them.

I think there is a very simple solution to the lack of relative reward in the game. Random LOOT! (purps). With completion of a series of a particular level a random car could be rewarded that is series level within each tier. Alternatively a few cars could be assigned to each series and randomly given (GT2 Style). This is just the beginning though. With improvements and patches new content can be unlocked with this system as well. For instance, as new RM mods are released they could be attached to the appropriate cars level tier and unlocked as a reward. (Once unlocked an unlimited number could be purchased of course, or not...I kinda like not). Other things like Wheel models and Body panels, wings, and....LIVERY@!!11! could be unlocked in this way.

That doesn't sound very rewarding. It sounds like a road block. Why would you want to have to unlock features like that?
 
I really do not like having to unlock content in a driving/racing sim. Unlocking the Top Gear track and the Ring variations was just annoying and felt archaic and insulting. If you market your game as a simulator and have to fall back on these sorts of tactics to make the game interesting, something else is terribly wrong.

To be clear, unlocking/loot/stuff in RPGs or the new batch of FPS games or even more arcade-like racing games is fine by me. However, I buy games like GT5 to do laps on various tracks in various cars, not to spend time working my way up some arbitrary level tree until the game decides I can race on a certain track or drive a certain car.

I still think Forza has done it best. There is the career mode where you have to buy cars and you earn prizes, and the freeplay mode where all the cars are available (stock) to drive or race on any of the tracks.

edit: also, what exorcet said.
 
I suppose I should put, this thread is not for you disclaimers at the top. Removal of the system is not going to happen. If you don't like the system, these ideas are not for you.

Many games use unlocks. It's what keeps modern games going. With so much media out there devs have to continuously offer reward to keep a share of players. That may not include you but it is reality.

PD is attempting to implement a system that they do not seem to understand on a psycological level. I am simply pointing out a few missing pieces.
 
I suppose I should put, this thread is not for you disclaimers at the top. Removal of the system is not going to happen. If you don't like the system, these ideas are not for you.

I would like proof. If I don't shut up and convince enough people, I'm sure it could change.

Many games use unlocks. It's what keeps modern games going. With so much media out there devs have to continuously offer reward to keep a share of players. That may not include you but it is reality.

Hopefully games will grow out of this phase. I understood all of this already. But it doesn't have to be this way.

PD is attempting to implement a system that they do not seem to understand on a psycological level. I am simply pointing out a few missing pieces.
I see them harming an already not so great mode (GT Mode). I'm voicing my concerns in the hope that said mode is fixed.
 
Many games use unlocks. It's what keeps modern games going. With so much media out there devs have to continuously offer reward to keep a share of players. That may not include you but it is reality.

If you have to lock away content to keep your game interesting, you've done something wrong earlier in the design process.

I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that most people buy driving games to drive and/or race. Do people buy racing games for the purpose of unlocking more cars and have the option to drive those cars as a secondary reason? If the driving is good enough, and there enough locations and events to keep someone driving you won't need to have stuff hidden away as a carrot to keep people playing.

Further, unless they're going to put out DLC, they've already made their money on me and I doubt they care if I'm still playing.
 
I think the licence tests should be the only levelling up you need to do. Maybe combined with some events, like NASCAR school etc. As the levelling is now it doesn't really serve any purpose except that it forces you to play for a longer period of time before you can earn the big cash (which isn't that big compared to what the big cars cost). It makes sense in B-spec though, that the driver earns more experience. But in A-spec it should be your own skills that says what level you are.
 
freedomweasel
I really do not like having to unlock content in a driving/racing sim. Unlocking the Top Gear track and the Ring variations was just annoying and felt archaic and insulting. If you market your game as a simulator and have to fall back on these sorts of tactics to make the game interesting, something else is terribly wrong.

To be clear, unlocking/loot/stuff in RPGs or the new batch of FPS games or even more arcade-like racing games is fine by me. However, I buy games like GT5 to do laps on various tracks in various cars, not to spend time working my way up some arbitrary level tree until the game decides I can race on a certain track or drive a certain car.

I still think Forza has done it best. There is the career mode where you have to buy cars and you earn prizes, and the freeplay mode where all the cars are available (stock) to drive or race on any of the tracks.

edit: also, what exorcet said.

As I stated before, I am considering the state of the game and working within it's paradigm. It's what I do. I also clearly stated in the first paragraph that this system is somewhat silly in a racing game.

That being said, arguments against the system as a whole are off topic. The topic is reiteration of the current paradigm.
 
As I stated before, I am considering the state of the game and working within it's paradigm. It's what I do. I also clearly stated in the first paragraph that this system is somewhat silly in a racing game.

That being said, arguments against the system as a whole are off topic. The topic is reiteration of the current paradigm.

Seems like polishing the brass on the Titanic, as they say, but I'll keep out of the thread.
 
My question is whether it's not too late now to implement it, since many have already progressed through this level system, which just makes them receive a "goodiebag" in one go if it would be installed in an update.
I kind of like a reward system but since the content that can be rewarded seems relatively limited anyway this might be something for GT6 perhaps.
I just wish the level system took into account Performance Points and tyre choice, the lower the amount of PP the higher the amount of XP points given making it rewarding to not use an overpowered car or reward an actual challenge.
To those who wish all the content was available from the beginning, that just isn't the way a GT-game should be in my opinion, in fact GT started this whole structure in racing games whereby you gradually earn credits and progress through better and faster cars, it should remain that way.
 
My question is whether it's not too late now to implement it, since many have already progressed through this level system, which just makes them receive a "goodiebag" in one go if it would be installed in an update.
I kind of like a reward system but since the content that can be rewarded seems relatively limited anyway this might be something for GT6 perhaps.
I just wish the level system took into account Performance Points and tyre choice, the lower the amount of PP the higher the amount of XP points given making it rewarding to not use an overpowered car or reward an actual challenge.
To those who wish all the content was available from the beginning, that just isn't the way a GT-game should be in my opinion, in fact GT started this whole structure in racing games whereby you gradually earn credits and progress through better and faster cars, it should remain that way.

Well, the combination of the 2...the effort changes and the reward changes would in theory get people to go back and replay the older series. If the difficulty increased as you level, meaning the a.i. got better, It might actually be fun to try and wind that kei car series again. One would actually have to tune the car and learn to drive it correctly eventually. The rewards would not be a big goodie bag. Replaying the past content would give future rewards.
 
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