Online Collisions in GT4 - Will they suck ?

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4
The one thing I am really worried about with the upcoming GT4 online is the network lag with relation to collision detection.

Now, I have played lots of online racing ( Porsche, NFS:U ) and I gotta say that when you are geographically distant from the other racers, a collision can never be modeled successfully and just plain pisses me off.

The old saying that 'Rubbing is Racing' I totally agree with. When there is serious competition, it is almost impossible to get past somebody without touching them. Having said that, all games that have some lag due to geography, **** up simple collisions to the point of frustration.

In NFS:U you are side by side with somebody and you tap them and you end up with the most severe reaction spinning you into a wall and out of the race. Porsche was much the same which is why turning collisions off made that my favourite online racer.

How will PD address these issues ? Will they detract from the absolute pleasure the the GT unviverse brings ? Will collisions be switchable on/off ?
 
Welcome to GTPlanet.

First, a message from Famine: We're not PD, we don't know, don't ask us.

Now, to the real business.

I live in Australia, and to try and play a game being hosted in the US is the very definition of pain. You crash into cars as they lag out and come to a stop, only for the car to suddenly reappear hundreds of metres ahead with no loss of speed. Meanwhile, you've lost all your momentum and a mess of time.

Network prediction code in some games is basically abyssmal. When I see the level of lag compensation in things like Enemy Territory (most recent MP game I've played online, it may have been eclipsed) I wonder why it can't exist in racing games. You look at the track, the current speed, position and where the wheels are pointing - surely the AI can predict this much as it would in normal racing.

Tagging other racers leads to a penalty, your car get slowed for a period of time to a preset speed limit. This presents a large problem if you're crashing into people who aren't really there.

Apparently, at E3 2003 one of the things most troubling the PD dev team was that the net code for racing was laggy. They feel they've resolved the latency issues. In that extra year, I'm praying, but also betting, that they managed to write GOOD netcode and some good prediction into it, so, with a bit of luck, online racing won't be doomed to a blinky lag fest like NFSU too often was.

Having people from your own country to race against will still of course be the best solution.
 
Eagle,
As i understand it hosted online events will almost certainley be restricted by country of origin.
Not sure if this means that we will not be able to have open access to everyone across the globe for other elements, But I suspect this is also probably unlikely, and the very most youll get is regional gaming.

Also where did you hear, that they had resolved the Net Code, Lag Issues, which first reared there ugly head last year.
The last I have seen on this issue, is that at this time while most other elements of the online game have been pretty much refined, actuall online racing for 6 cars is still causing major problems in PD hq, and so far all the developemnts made in the software have yet to show much improvement over the Major problems of last years code, which was panned by almost every journo who tried it, although most of these comments have been kept private up till now.

I am certainly still sceptical that we will finally see 6 Player online racing, Gts complex code and 60fps over a 6 way network, is always gonna cause some problems, I just hope we dont end up with 2 car fields or ghosted cars.
 
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=55650

Eurogamer: Is the online mode now to your satisfaction? Have you managed to correct the lag issues that you were talking about last year?

Kazunori Yamauchi: The network quality and network head to head play quality has improved significantly. Last year I was uncomfortable with the latency. This year the latency has been taken care of.

That's what I'm basing my assumptions off.

As for region only gaming, I'm keen to see how they could lock us into that. They going to lock based off Network Adapter model? Maybe IP range? How about something embedded in DNAS?

I'd be pretty amazed if we can't even share photos or cars or whatever the other online features like Flea Market are with people in other countries.

That does raise a thought... US cars crash EU GT3's and vice versa - would buying an NTSC car online crash your PAL game? Would the game simply convert it for you?
 
I play games like PGR2, and RSC2 online and it's lag free, it's just like single player with decent AI. I'm sure GT4 will be fine as long as your not on 56k.
 
There are so many factors involved with online gaming which can adversly effect the overall experience - ie LAG.

The biggest factor is connection speed/quality. Thanks to the fact that the PS2 is limited to broadband connectivity only (at least in Australia) speed issues should be minimal. Broadband providers are constanty improving throughput to cope with new users and increases in speed.

However, a good connection doesn't solve everything. It will vary from game to game as to how well it copes with online lag issues. Many people have noted NFSUG as an example. No offence to EA, but the latency problems experienced while playing NFSUG suck the big one. Typical EA game - all marketing - no substance.

I've played Nascar 2003 online using my 56k modem. (sure the server was on a good connection) but 80% of the 20+ other players were also on 56kers. The quality considering the number of cars and modem speed was nothing short of remarkable. Far better than playing NFSUG over broadband connections.

Knowing PD as most of use do, when they do something, they do it right. Although it is impossible to remove ALL lag (due to the number of uncontrolled factors involved) I have every confidence that PD will produce a game with the highest quality network play available on the PS2.
 
A good option to use to reduce lag problems would be an option to have a "live ghost" race, where everyone in the race is a ghost car with no collision detection. But it should only be an option.

Or maybe there could some sort of smart ghosting, where if it detects unnatural car behavior due to lag, like sudden stops, it ghosts the car to prevent collisions.
 
Originally posted by Sven
Or maybe there could some sort of smart ghosting, where if it detects unnatural car behavior due to lag, like sudden stops, it ghosts the car to prevent collisions.
That's one of the best ideas i've EVER read about ANY game!!! That would be awesome if it is in the game, it would prevent all (well, most) troubles for online lag, and still allow collision detection, and still be loads of fun fun fun!!!
 
This will be a trickey one for PD to solve. If they were having problems with the online aspect a year ago, I can't see them ironing out all those bugs before Nov. After all, PD have no expreicence of making online games, and I can see this part of GT4 really being a massive let down. Lets hope I'm wrong about this, lets hope they get it spot on 1st time, and we can all race each other online, and I can show off my silky skills on Citta Di Aria :D

Cheers

Jamie
 
Wow. So there is actually some problems in trying to reach further opponents online? As I said in my "GT4 Online Racing: My Problems Clarified" thread, I don't know much about online play because I've never done it. Anyhow, so that means that here in Houston, if I want to play someone in France, Japan, or even Australia, there may be some collision problems?

This is off-topic, but maybe what if some rough weather is there when you are trying to play someone online? Like, if it's sunny in Los Angeles (hell, California gets all the sunshine, leaving us Texans with heat and rain) and there is some heavy rain in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, it would ruin the collision detection while I'm racing? I think one game I heard of was Microsoft Flight Simulator... 2000 I want to say. I think that you could download cities online with the current weather conditions there. But if the rain was pretty bad, that would mean that your plane will be flying through some rough weather. Just wanted to bring that up for a strange reason.
 
Ok... I don't know what the hell that was meant to mean, so I'm going to try to address the points raised in reverse chronological order. Let's get started.

Weather's not in GT4 by all accounts, so there'll be no Americans racing on dry tarmac, Australians stuck on wet or something equally ridiculous.

Now, real weather CAN physically affect internet connections on occasion. It can drop connections entirely, cause damaging power spikes, or it can just lead to more line noise and thus, more packet loss. Packet loss is when packets are lost in transmission, they aren't received at their destination. This happens a lot with dial up internet because it basically uses voice to communicate. Dial up works over ordinary phone lines by sending sound signals. If those signals get messed up, you lose part of your message, just like when you're talking on the phone and some crackling or whatever distorts the person you're listening too.

The lag issue: lag collisions happen a lot in NFSU as S13KS mentioned. However, the large reason for this in NFSU is that you have people from different countries racing each other. An Australian and an American racing each other will have a large delay. I've found when you race people from the same location as you, the racing is fine, so whilst it IS a network code issue with NFSU, EA aren't SOLELY to blame.

I'll try to explain the lag problem with an example.

We have two racers, they're right behind each other. The one in front (Car 1) starts to turn into a corner and brake. The second car (Car 2) does likewise. The first car for some reason suffers lag, so the message that Car 1 is turning and braking gets delayed by half a second. Not a lot, but in close quarters racing, it can be big. So, Car 2 doesn't know what Car 1 is doing he hasn't received a message saying he's braking, turning, accelerating or anything, so the game assumes he's doing nothing, so the car would basically come to a stop like you'd just let go of the controller. Car 2 collides with Car 1, because Car 1 has basically stopped on the racing line. Car 2 had no idea this was going to happen. So Car 2 loses all of his speed and momentum from the crash. However, Car 1 ACTUALLY took the corner normally. Car 2 just never got told. So Car 1 happily races off, not knowing anything ever happened, because as far as he saw, nothing ever did - he just drove around the corner normally. Car 2 however suddenly finds out that Car 1 was never there, and that he is in fact racing off into the distance. This doesn't change Car 2's situation, he's still lost all his speed and momentum and time.

That rather longwinded, obtuse explanation hopefully gives a bit of a picture of how lag is a problem in online racing. It means cars randomly stop in front of you and you crash, but really, the car you crashed into was never there. So you suffer and the other driver never notices a thing.

You have to appreciate that the bits of information you're sending are travelling from your house, to a local exchange, to your Internet Service Provider, to their backbone connection, to another backbone, to an undersea fibre optic line, to another backbone station, to an Internet Service Provider, to a local exchange, to your opponent's house. In the case of America Australia that's about a 12,000km journey if not more, and it makes that trip within 0.2 seconds.

Sven's idea of smart ghosting is a beautiful one, something I raised a while back when we were discussing the penalty system. There needs to be certain rules, like different speeds and proximities between the cars before the ghosting will come into effect. Remember, we do want race rubbing and we do want slipstreaming. It's a complex one.

S13KS: If you listen to Sony every PS2 should only be connected via broadband, however there's no way to force people to have broadband before you let them connect that I know of.

Now, what I'm not sure of in that respect is this:

I installed my network adaptor and configured it for my broadband connection at home. However, it worked at my friend's house and he only has dial up. Now, what I'm not sure is if during the initial configuratino it employed some sort of check with your ISP to confirm you have broadband, and once that's certified, it forgoes it each time you connect. So, if I had just installed it freshly at my friend's house on dial up, it may have been rejected. The solution to that is to simply download an pre-configured network settings file, which you can get off the PS2 memory card via an Xport. Then you'd just have to change a few things like ISP login and you'd be set.
 
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