online physics or bug?????

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GTAQV

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So you can understand a bit better my issue, let me first say that i never use any aids (except for the abs=1), and always set everything to its most realistic option. I always drive with the 900º wheel. It's been years since driving simulations became unplayable without the wheel for me. ...and i also obtained a long time ago the GT5 trophy for beating the GTR real time at the nurburgring track(so i know the track), and i can handle rwd powerful cars with low grip tires just fine, so you can realize that despite not being a alien or a real ace, certainly i'm not a rookie or anything close to it.

I was online racing the new toyota gt86 with road tyres(comfort soft, but with sports hard the result is the same), on the nordschleife when on the bottom of "fuchsrohre" (http://www.toxo.de/ring/nordschleife/fuchsrohre.html) section the car has a sudden snap of oversteer and spins of my control at a speed over 200km/h. Since then a passed there a few more times and turns out the vehicle behavior is consistently the same. It's very hard to pass there without spinning the car. The problem is that on offline mode with no aids, and all set to be as realistic as possible, and the car passes through there with no drama at all.
At the “Carousel”, on online mode the car will also spin very easily, but once again in offline mode there is no drama.

I've heard people complaining about how online and offline physics aren’t the same, but i never gave it much credit, people said there were a few seconds of diff on a 20km track, and that never seemed to me like hard evidence... I personally never felt any difference that made suspect of different physics for online mode. I think this might be more notorious on some cars, the cars i typically use never made me spot anything,

Is it more realistic? There seems to be a tendency to consider the harder the more realistic, but obviously that's not always true. Even if the online mode had the more realistic physics model, the fact is that in this case the result doesn't seems right, because this is a modern(almost underpowerd) sports car, that as it's known has been tested on this particular track for several years on its development. It just doesn’t seems plausible that this car will behave like that on those two corners in real life, so i must say that even still loving and admiring gt5 as a street car simulator i'm a bit disappointed on this particular aspect.
 
Yes, people do think that online is more realistic because its "harder", but if you think about it PD's proper full physics model is the offline one.

I used to prefer online physics but now i like offline better!
 
Is it quite possible that the "difference in physics engines" is just lag?
 
It's weird that the physics vary,online the cars I drive seem to carry brake better but are also more prone to under/over steer,usually the latter.
And your issue does seem weird as the GT86 should lose grip in a subtle way, not just suddenly break out at the edge of it's grip envelope.
My Epson NSX does something similar to what you describe when you take the wrong line through the carrousel but that is a very different car.
 
I think the physics difference is somehow attributable to the model's "calculation rate." If you go into your lounge at "very high" quality, you will notice that the model reacts more like offline than if the quality is at a lower setting.

I can't think of any reason for this other than the assumption that the rate at which the model calculates vectors changes in regard to available bandwidth. So, at a lower rate, given the same vehicle speed/track conditions/tire compound/instantaneous rate of change in x,y,z axis acceleration, there would be a slight "skidding" effect, as the vehicle covers more ground between each refresh of the calculation.

If you're already at the limit of adhesion, this would certainly cause the back end to snap around.


*note: I don't know squat about software programming, physics models, or how these things are calculated in-game.
 
The 86 is a bad car to test on, it loves to snap oversteer. SH tires make it worse.
The rear suspension hates bumps (bump steer) so a track like the Ring is too much for it.
Offline and online physics are different.
Online physics have less grip and the cars oversteer and understeer and more pronounced.
Take any high HP MR car to the Ring and try the Carousel online and offline.
You should notice that online is harder.
If you add lag to online physics, you get even less grip and more understeer.
 
OP: I thought the same thing. The day 2.02 came out, I got in a room that was racing just the new FT86. 16 people were in this room too... Everyone was on sport softs for the races I was there for. Going through the Fox Hole, EVERYONE spun out! It was a sight to see!

I thought at the time that it might be a bug. The car felt great everywhere else on the track except through the Fox Hole. It felt like a sheet of ice through there.

The online physics are an issue. Super inconsistent. Seems like they've gotten worse with 2.02.
 
There is definitely something going on with the updated physics. I can't quite put my finger on it, but I'm going to install the last update and do some consistency testing. For me, alot of my favorite cars (tunes unchanged) have noticeable oversteer. I'll report back here shortly.
 
I didn't know cars couldn't roll online...
Carracerptp i understand your logic, but i'm not saying that the ft86 isn't more prone to snap oversteer than any other car. I'm simply saying that it didn't feel right and in in my opinion doesn't seem very believable that in real life it will behave like that. The track wasn't wet the conditions were in theory near perfect, and that's a car that has been developed there, actually it even seems unlikely that any modern sports car would behave like that... perhaps a koenigseg with 1000hp doing 270km/h would...

I did race there MR high powered cars there online, most of my gt5 races are online, for instance i occasionally like taking there my stock enzo on sport hard tyres to the ring, and at least on gt5 the enzo isn't for sure one the best cars handling wise... i never did direct online/offline physics confrontation until yesterday, because of this coincidence with the ft86. So perhaps if started testing a few other cars i would stumble on few more dissidences.

After reading your responses i'm starting to think that the offline physics are indeed the complete model that gt5 has to offer, and that the online model is actually somehow castrated and detuned version that resulted from compromises made due to it's online nature... Wich kind sucks because i play mainly online, at least the differences are diminute to the point of deceiving me until now... If that’s the case i hope they keep on improving it and that they bring both models as close as possible...
 
GTAQV
I didn't know cars couldn't roll online...
Carracerptp i understand your logic, but i'm not saying that the ft86 isn't more prone to snap oversteer than any other car. I'm simply saying that it didn't feel right and in in my opinion doesn't seem very believable that in real life it will behave like that. The track wasn't wet the conditions were in theory near perfect, and that's a car that has been developed there, actually it even seems unlikely that any modern sports car would behave like that... perhaps a koenigseg with 1000hp doing 270km/h would...
Click to expand...
If any car did snap like the 86 Online at the ring, the company would go out of business.
GTAQV
I did race there MR high powered cars there online, most of my gt5 races are online, for instance i occasionally like taking there my stock enzo on sport hard tyres to the ring, and at least on gt5 the enzo isn't for sure one the best cars handling wise... i never did direct online/offline physics confrontation until yesterday, because of this coincidence with the ft86. So perhaps if started testing a few other cars i would stumble on few more dissidences.
Click to expand...
I did a practice session for a racing series, a good one hour on and offline same car/tires (SS)/track.
The way you drive offline will not work online. It just feels like the grip line, tire traction falloff and input response are very different.
Tuning a car offline won't work online.
I have an enzo tune thats great offline but online.... pushes like a truck, corners like a bus, on ice.
I think one of the systems are backwards in the way they handle changes (ride height, spring rates).
GTAQV
After reading your responses i'm starting to think that the offline physics are indeed the complete model that gt5 has to offer, and that the online model is actually somehow castrated and detuned version that resulted from compromises made due to it's online nature... Wich kind sucks because i play mainly online, at least the differences are diminute to the point of deceiving me until now... If that’s the case i hope they keep on improving it and that they bring both models as close as possible...
Click to expand...
I came to the same conclusion.
 
The online and offline models are CERTAINLY different in some very noticeable way.

I really wish PD would either...

A. Fix it instead of wasting time making useless features that no one wants...

or B. Publish the reason for the difference and that they are working on it and/or don't care/know how to fix it.
 
GTAQV
So you can understand a bit better my issue, let me first say that i never use any aids (except for the abs=1), and always set everything to its most realistic option. I always drive with the 900º wheel. It's been years since driving simulations became unplayable without the wheel for me. ...and i also obtained a long time ago the GT5 trophy for beating the GTR real time at the nurburgring track(so i know the track), and i can handle rwd powerful cars with low grip tires just fine, so you can realize that despite not being a alien or a real ace, certainly i'm not a rookie or anything close to it.

I was online racing the new toyota gt86 with road tyres(comfort soft, but with sports hard the result is the same), on the nordschleife when on the bottom of "fuchsrohre" (http://www.toxo.de/ring/nordschleife/fuchsrohre.html) section the car has a sudden snap of oversteer and spins of my control at a speed over 200km/h. Since then a passed there a few more times and turns out the vehicle behavior is consistently the same. It's very hard to pass there without spinning the car. The problem is that on offline mode with no aids, and all set to be as realistic as possible, and the car passes through there with no drama at all.
At the “Carousel”, on online mode the car will also spin very easily, but once again in offline mode there is no drama.

I've heard people complaining about how online and offline physics aren’t the same, but i never gave it much credit, people said there were a few seconds of diff on a 20km track, and that never seemed to me like hard evidence... I personally never felt any difference that made suspect of different physics for online mode. I think this might be more notorious on some cars, the cars i typically use never made me spot anything,

Is it more realistic? There seems to be a tendency to consider the harder the more realistic, but obviously that's not always true. Even if the online mode had the more realistic physics model, the fact is that in this case the result doesn't seems right, because this is a modern(almost underpowerd) sports car, that as it's known has been tested on this particular track for several years on its development. It just doesn’t seems plausible that this car will behave like that on those two corners in real life, so i must say that even still loving and admiring gt5 as a street car simulator i'm a bit disappointed on this particular aspect.
Click to expand...
It's online physics , not a bug. Not all cars are easy to drive and not all cars can be driven so fast by everyone. Online physics is more realistic because there's more oversteer and understeer and that's realistic. Snap oversteer is realistic. Understeer and specially the oversteer factor is probably much more in real life but its a simulator so its not about simulating lap times but its about simulating how it should feel and how you drive at fastest, there can be exaggerations on cars that are too easy to drive or have been made too easy because its just a simulator just like any other. You said you were using comfort tires , well usually soft slicks are the tires that can snap easily , I don't know about the car you drove.
 
Padracer99
Online physics is more realistic because there's more oversteer and understeer and that's realistic. Snap oversteer is realistic.
Click to expand...

Clearly that's not necessarily true. You could take whatever it is that changes between online and offline physics and keep increasing it, and it wouldn't necessarily be more realistic. More oversteer and understeer =/= more realistic. If you take it to logical extremes and have a car that oversteers every time you turn the wheel, that's not more realistic. That's a death trap, and no car company in their right mind would put out a car like that (one of the reasons I believe the Yellowbird to be rather inaccurate...).

There's a balance to be found between going over the limit, and having a car that behaves predictably below it. For me, I feel that the offline physics are actually closer to what I feel in real life. But that's just my personal opinion, with my own car.
 
Agreed, offline physics are where the engine and calculations are running at 100% all the time, and obviously the physics that PD/Kaz thinks are the more true to life.
Look in the game credits and you will see online physics were modelled by different people.

Being a driver in real life i have to say that offline feels more real to me!
 
Padracer99 i agree with most of what you said, understeer, oversteer, snap oversteer are all realistic reactions, and not all cars are meant to be driven fast by everyone, i also agree that soft slicks are more prone to abrupt reactions, but like Imari said there's a balance to be found, and in this case with this car, type of tire and conditions, seems to me that the online mode is behind the offline mode.

Like has been said, makes sense that the offline is the most complete physics engine gt5 has to offer, and the one they felt that was closer to real life. I invite you to try the car with the comfort soft tires, on that track and on that specific corner, i find hard to believe that you wouldn't agree that car reacts weirdly there.
 
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