Online Play- How to solve the problem

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doblocruiser

doblocruiser

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Why has poly such problems with the online element?

I really don`t know why it is so difficult to play online. The only thing that has to go over the network are to coordinates of the other players + the unique code every player gets, then all the data can be loaded from your own ps2 from the codes it gets over the network! Such as Car, Place on Track! On the license plate there will be the openents name. That couldn`t be to difficult. 6 cars on track and 5 of them are redirected where they getting there data from. Easy!

Regards,
Doblocruiser

ps -> Or am I missing something here?

Any more ideas how this could be solved?
 
Ohh.. That sounds easy :D

Serious : You say car position.. Well, car position includes all three axis'. X Y and Z. Further more you'll need info of how much the car is rolled on each axis, that's 3 more numbers, then you need info on how much each spring is compressed or extended and how much each front wheel is turned. (That is just the necessary data)

Like this, the moment the guy in the other end turns his wheel a degree to the right while going over a small jump, how much info do you think needs to be send from his PS2 to yours in order to make the game look smooth...

And then, for the sake of it, take the example above, and then think that every PS2 in say, 6 connected, have to send each and every bit of information to 5 others... Now that's a lot of data going back and forth. And it must be done realtime :D

I'm glad I'm not writing network code !
 
And That, as I can see, is the most simplistic description of how to do it, Add in all the other variables that we cant even comprehend that need to be exchanged.
And that is why I belive GT4 will never have a Sixplayer online racing network.

I even heard recently, that at a show recently they either had only a four player Network running, or the they had a six player network that had to be disconnected because it wasnt playing good.
(If some one has the facts on either of these, could you plaese post, as ive lost my Info on that)
 
Originally posted by GTXLR
And That, as I can see, is the most simplistic description of how to do it
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And two full pages would've been a little too much now wouldn't it ;)
 
Isn't it also that the PS2's online capabilities aren't very good like compared to Xbox Live?
 
Xbox better have great capabilities as you have to pay to play with them. :irked:
 
I read somewhere that the PS2 can do some 2 million calculations per second. It seems to me that any trouble with online play would stem not from hardware, but from connectivity issues. I would surmise that if all racers involved had fast broadband connections, and the server wasn't too bogged down, that online play wouldn't be that difficult (certainly not impossible as has been hinted by some). I also doubt that KY and PD would have announced with such grandiosity the game's online feature if they didn't believe it was possible to do it and to do it well. The biggest news at E3 concerning GT4 was it's online play feature. I doubt that PD (or Sony, for that matter) will drop the online playability as it would be a tremendous loss of face indeed.
 
2 million doesn't sound high enough. You gotta remember that 3D graphics take an aweful lot of calculations. Then you have the AI, physics and sound code. Then you do that 25 or 30 times a second.
You need an absolute bucketload of processor power to do this stuff at the level of GT3/4/whatever.

I think that the biggest problem with that model of sending network data is that it's easily modifiable on the player side. It would be very, very simple to double your car speed.
 
The biggest news at E3 concerning GT4 was it's online play feature.
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That Is True, It was praised and promoted at the show.
But the biggest news ended up being that those who experienced it had many complaints about it, and it was only played out over Local networks.
Many of the journalists reported there findings and Sony and PD limped away sheepishly, took the criticism on board, and immediately started reworking the game.

Now even after a couple of engine rebuilds, the problems have not been solved, hence the delays and the emmergence of the Prologue.

How many times will they rewrite it before they decide..
A, to release it with the online element not matching the quality of the rest of the game.
B, simply realise they will never get it good enough, & remove the online racing element.
C, To continue to strip down the game over and over until they can make it work:banghead:

Im not saying its impossible, But ill stick by my prediction that GT4 may well not have a 6 player online racing element, that KY, PD and Sony will all be happy with.
I just believe they will not be able to keep the game at a level, that will give us the freedom to race any of our modded cars on any track against 5 other opponents, and i think they will not be prepared to go with the limited, stripped down game engine for online mode.
 
Originally posted by GTXLR
That Is True, It was praised and promoted at the show.
But the biggest news ended up being that those who experienced it had many complaints about it, and it was only played out over Local networks.
Many of the journalists reported there findings and Sony and PD limped away sheepishly, took the criticism on board, and immediately started reworking the game.

Now even after a couple of engine rebuilds, the problems have not been solved, hence the delays and the emmergence of the Prologue.

How many times will they rewrite it before they decide..
A, to release it with the online element not matching the quality of the rest of the game.
B, simply realise they will never get it good enough, & remove the online racing element.
C, To continue to strip down the game over and over until they can make it work:banghead:

Im not saying its impossible, But ill stick by my prediction that GT4 may well not have a 6 player online racing element, that KY, PD and Sony will all be happy with.
I just believe they will not be able to keep the game at a level, that will give us the freedom to race any of our modded cars on any track against 5 other opponents, and i think they will not be prepared to go with the limited, stripped down game engine for online mode.
Click to expand...

You seem to be very knowledgeable about GT4's development and I do respect your information. I just don't understand why PD is even bothering with the online feature. To listen to you and Amar talk about it, you would quickly surmise that the online portion of GT4 is simply never going to work; that it is just not feasible at this time. If that is the case, why would PD continue to delay and delay, trying to fix something that cannot be fixed? IMO, I believe it is because they think they can get a decent online component into GT4. They are not stupid. If online was not possible, they would have nixed the idea already, dropped the online content, and released the game on schedule. The fact that they are continuing to work on it says to me that they believe they can make it work. If in fact they can't, then I hope they stop stalling and release the game without online in a timely fashion (this whole Prologue edition thing is really lame). If I had to choose between playing GT4 sans online in Jan as opposed to playing GT4 with online in Jun, I would happily take the former.
 
Maybe Im being overly harsh with the critiscism and doubt about the possibility of the online racing element.
I believe pressure is high for it to exist, but also that it must be an exceptionaly worthy component.
Sony and PD are no fools, and may well have a few tricks up their sleeve, and will be able to pull it off, but in the end i think it will be a compromise if it is in.
In the meantime, the delay will IMO be very beneficial to the Overall polish and content of the offline game....which will make a Great game, astounding.
 
In this case a delay is a good thing (Never thought I'd say that:rolleyes: ) as it means PD are seriously trying to find the best compromise when it comes to the online mode. With all the hype surronding the game, I'd be real surprised if they didn't get online racing in the game.
 
Originally posted by KSaiyu
In this case a delay is a good thing (Never thought I'd say that:rolleyes: ) as it means PD are seriously trying to find the best compromise when it comes to the online mode. With all the hype surronding the game, I'd be real surprised if they didn't get online racing in the game.
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At the moment.. For all I care they could release the game without any multiplayer (cept for splitscreen) features and I would still buy it for the upgraded engine, the amount of tracks and cars..

And I'd buy it again once they have the net code perfected (I would, of course, get a 1 US$ discount because I bought the same game for 30 US$ once before but without the network options)
 
Just release GT4 without online now :eek:
Then release GT Online in about a year once they've worked it all out (if it's even possible). Or else just leave online for GT5 when the PS3 will be more powerful and many more people will have broadband.
We want to play, and most will spend most of their time not online. Don't make us wait another year PD :irked:
 
I have an extremely strong feeling that full six player Online Play will decay into just chat rooms and exchanges of ghost time trial replays. That wouldnt be a terribly bad thing, because personally I've gotten the most satisfaction racing someone's ghost as opposed to them at the same time, because then you know they are going to really try and nail the line to go faster than you. it totally eliminates the worry of people bumping into each other, which seems to me to be the main issue PD and KY are having right now.

As an example for comparison in lag, let's say I'm playing Quake with a decent dsl line against 7 other people. Granted, when I move any direction, my screen instantaneously shows me moving in my desired direction. However, to an opponent's view, the timing of my movement in whatever direction is slightly delayed (~10-300 ms, depending on connection). The problem I see GT4 having if the online play is run in its entirety with however many people racing eachother real time, is that car position is always going to appear different to every player. The only way to solve this inevitable problem is to manually delay the response time on the user side. IE, let's say i turn into a corner. My screen wouldn't show me turning in until about 10-300 ms afterward. BUT, the view of my car to an opponent on the other end of the telephone line would be true and correct to my view, and the car would not appear to "stutter" or "jump around" to him. But coding the online play like this would, and most likely will if its released this way, detract from the driving experience. Since when does a car not react the moment I turn the wheel, punch the gas, nab the brakes, etc? It's just not going to work. :(
 
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