Original Track Redesigns - Good or Bad? [READ OP]

[RACECAR]

Some of you may know it, but this is the very first version of Grand Valley from GT1's Test Drive Disc. Notice the longer second tunnel and bridge sections. So, basically it made me think that Grand Valley might come up to GT7 a little bit like this, given all these stretching needs. And seriously, I would love if it returned just like this early version.

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I am of the impression this'll be a circuit that at most will just need a massive graphical overhaul. Pit road is suffiencently sized and apart from a turn or 2, isn't too tight. Tunnel and accommodating tunnel lighting might change abit design wise (Look both at High Speed Ring and Midfield Raceway for that example), but it should effectively be the same thing we recognize.

 

[DefNotJake]

(I know this post is old, but it was linked by GTPlanets Twitter)

I'm happy with what they did to Trial Mountain visually, it looks great now... but taking the classic chicane out is too far imo. Seems like the side effect of having Sport mode is that the franchise is heading down this path of taking itself too seriously, to a point where it's obnoxious. It's one of the main reasons why extremely fun features like "shuffle mode" is more than likely never going to see a return in any GT game ever again. If fictional tracks aren't allowed to be fun or have character anymore because of a silly esports mode we are all burdened by, then don't even bother. Just stick to the real tracks.

 

[eran0004]

(I know this post is old, but it was linked by GTPlanets Twitter)

I'm happy with what they did to Trial Mountain visually, it looks great now... but taking the classic chicane out is too far imo. Seems like the side effect of having Sport mode is that the franchise is heading down this path of taking itself too seriously, to a point where it's obnoxious. It's one of the main reasons why extremely fun features like "shuffle mode" is more than likely never going to see a return in any GT game ever again. If fictional tracks aren't allowed to be fun or have character anymore because of a silly esports mode we are all burdened by, then don't even bother. Just stick to the real tracks.

The chicane was likely changed because they needed to make the pit road or start/finish straight longer, and having a faster chicane would perhaps make the top speed too high by the time you reach turn 1.

There are plenty of characteristic corners and chicanes in GT Sport so I don’t think esports is having a negative impact on that.

 

[DefNotJake]

The chicane was likely changed because they needed to make the pit road or start/finish straight longer, and having a faster chicane would perhaps make the top speed too high by the time you reach turn 1.

There are plenty of characteristic corners and chicanes in GT Sport so I don’t think esports is having a negative impact on that.

The track is almost an entire mile larger than the original, I don't think the GT7 version was going to have any issue with pitlane length. Also, almost all of those characteristic corners in GT Sport are from real life tracks, not the fictional ones.

 

[eran0004]

Almost all of those characteristic corners in GT Sport are from real life tracks, not the fictional ones.

I don’t know about that. The high speed chicane of Dragon Trail and the tilted hairpin of Maggiore have a lot of character in my opinion.

 

[karelpipa]

The new chicane is a heaven for divebombers. Ende.
PD Destroyed whole flow of the circuir. Ende

 

[DefNotJake]

The new chicane is a heaven for divebombers. Ende.
PD Destroyed whole flow of the circuit. Ende

Yup. Having a slow, tight corner that require wide entries as the final turn is always going to cater to the person behind making a really desperate attempt at a cheap win.

 

[RACECAR]

From what I have both witnessed AND experienced has shown me that regardless of how wide or tight that corner is, there is ALWAYS gonna be an idiot that feels the need to divebomb for a position. There are endless videos that continually show that there are people who don't care. If the person in front looks like they are opening up a gap, they are diving for that gap. To make the assumption that a wider corner will encourage MORE is to hilariously assume that same idiot will somehow care, which they more often then not clearly show they don't. I know by now the Senna quote is beyond worn the hell out as much as the JPS liveries and the Gulf liveries, but you have people that live and die by that quote regardless of how wide or tight that corner is. I guaranteed that even if that corner was kept, someone somewhere was gonna send it regardless because desperation is desperation regardless of the width or the gap.

 

[karelpipa]

Someone who wants to take online racing seriously will inevitably find a community of fellow racers which will not promote this kind of divebombing and other forbidden racing ''techniques'' and either the driver will learn to behave or the comunity will expel such driver, rendering this idiotic change to circuit(s) totally unnecessary.

In general online racing you must expect at least 1 idiot per few races, which will happily turn into you even on straights. No circuit layout will change their behaviour.

Also, this change could not have been done to appeal FIA. Either because if you look at that wall right after prolonged straight leading into this very slow tilkecorner with NO runoff or because FIA does not in any way require circuit layout changes in this game.

One solution will appease everybody. Keep 'em both at the same time like Fuji or La Sarthe.

Yup. Having a slow, tight corner that require wide entries as the final turn is always going to cater to the person behind making a really desperate attempt at a cheap win.

What's even worse is that the original chicane was not so prone to this behaviour. All that was needed were a few obstacles to not allow direct crossing the chicane.


(written awhile listening to Gran Turismo 2 soundtrack to feel a little bit better about this ''new'' Trial Mountain)

 

[RacingGrandpa]

I don't see many dive bombs at the final turn at Fuji...

 

[DefNotJake]

I don't see many dive bombs at the final turn at Fuji...

I would say something like turn 1 at Monza is more comparable to the new turn at Trial Mountain.

 

[Dave A]

At least with it being at the end of the lap rather than the start, by the time you reach it for the first time there should be somethng of a gap between the faster drivers and the slower ones.

The issue with pile ups at Monza is it's turn 1, if that was at the end of the lap instead then there would be fewer drivers heading into it at the same time as the pack would have started to spread, even if just slightly.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

I thought this thread was dead. Thanks to whoever the GTP Twitter admin is for bringing fresh attention to it

The chicane was likely changed because they needed to make the pit road or start/finish straight longer, and having a faster chicane would perhaps make the top speed too high by the time you reach turn 1.

There are plenty of characteristic corners and chicanes in GT Sport so I don’t think esports is having a negative impact on that.

Hi eran, good to see you around. I remember all the awesome custom course maker tracks you made back in GT6

The longer straight argument has been covered before (I know, it's a long thread ):
- You can extend the front and backstraights but still keep the old chicane profile (and no, it won't make the straight too fast - after all we race at La Sarthe and Nordschleife just fine).
- The pitlane length isn't an issue because pitstops in GTS aren't real time. You just enter the pits, and the cutscene cuts to you going into pitbox, and then you teleport to the pit exit.
- We've raced at tracks like Tsukuba, Streets of Willow and Goodwood in FIA which have much shorter main straights and pitlanes than old TM. Heck, Tokyo South's pit is literally just a 1 car length garage.

Basically, if you look at the new fictional tracks in GT Sport, all of them have some sort of corner complexes or chicanes that double back on itself. Why? Because they allow for constant side by side racing where no car gets an advantage (because the inside line becomes an outside line in the next corner). So it keeps the racing tight and it's good for the esports broadcasts. Unfortunately, it's at the expense of driving enjoyment and fast flowing tracks for us old fans.

I just wish they also included the old version (like they did with Fuji, Sarthe, Brands and Monza as I outlined in the OP). That way everyone's happy.

EDIT: Also made MASSIVE edits to the first post, to make it more structured and easier to read. No one likes to read a wall of text it seems

 

[eran0004]

- You can extend the front and backstraights but still keep the old chicane profile (and no, it won't make the straight too fast - after all we race at La Sarthe and Nordschleife just fine).

La Sarthe and Nordschleife both have tight chicanes / corners right before the start/finish straight though. In fact most tracks seem to have a tight section right before the s/f straight, there is probably a good reason for that.

 

[karelpipa]

Virtual tracks do not need to follow real world rules.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

La Sarthe and Nordschleife both have tight chicanes / corners right before the start/finish straight though. In fact most tracks seem to have a tight section right before the s/f straight, there is probably a good reason for that.

I mean the main straight at both of those tracks are much longer than all of PD's fictional tracks (with the exception of SSRX). Sarthe has been broken up by chicanes but Dottinger is still unbroken and they race there just fine, safety and all.

Like others have said, in real life they might worry about overspeeding into the S/F straight but this is a game so we don't need to worry about that. I mean the game literally allows you to fly into the pitlane at max speed anyway

 

[Samus]

I mean the main straight at both of those tracks are much longer than all of PD's fictional tracks (with the exception of SSRX). Sarthe has been broken up by chicanes but Dottinger is still unbroken and they race there just fine, safety and all.

Like others have said, in real life they might worry about overspeeding into the S/F straight but this is a game so we don't need to worry about that. I mean the game literally allows you to fly into the pitlane at max speed anyway

Also some of the corners on their latest fictional tracks would be deadly in the real world, realism and safety really doesn't seem to be their concern with fictional tracks right now. They're very much still fantasy.

 

[eran0004]

I mean the main straight at both of those tracks are much longer than all of PD's fictional tracks (with the exception of SSRX). Sarthe has been broken up by chicanes but Dottinger is still unbroken and they race there just fine, safety and all.

Like others have said, in real life they might worry about overspeeding into the S/F straight but this is a game so we don't need to worry about that. I mean the game literally allows you to fly into the pitlane at max speed anyway

But those main straights doesn’t have a start/finish line.

Safety is just one concern, another might be that you don’t want such high speed that the braking zone starts before the finish line, or that the slipstream effect becomes so strong that nobody wants to exit the final corner in P1. There’s a lot more to track design than just looking at individual corners and individual straights as if they have no connection to each other

And as I remember the track, the last chicane didn’t really work that well anyways, it often happened that people were either cutting the corner or overcooking it to the point where they crashed hard into the wall and bounced out into the path of everyone behind them. Sure it’s iconic, but I don’t mind trying another solution.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

But those main straights doesn’t have a start/finish line.

Safety is just one concern, another might be that you don’t want such high speed that the braking zone starts before the finish line, or that the slipstream effect becomes so strong that nobody wants to exit the final corner in P1. There’s a lot more to track design than just looking at individual corners and individual straights as if they have no connection to each other

And as I remember the track, the last chicane didn’t really work that well anyways, it often happened that people were either cutting the corner or overcooking it to the point where they crashed hard into the wall and bounced out into the path of everyone behind them. Sure it’s iconic, but I don’t mind trying another solution.

Trust me, even with the extended straight + old chicane, the speeds won't be that high Do you play GT Sport FIA races? A couple updates ago the slipstream effect is so strong, even on a track like Tsukuba it's worth almost 1 sec a lap. PD was okay with it, until all the top drivers complained how extreme it is and they dialled it back. I am sure braking zone/slipstream considerations are not in Kaz' mind when redesigning TM.

Penalties and barriers on the inside of the chicane will solve the cutting problem. Ghosting will solve the second part.

 

[eran0004]

Trust me, even with the extended straight + old chicane, the speeds won't be that high Do you play GT Sport FIA races? A couple updates ago the slipstream effect is so strong, even on a track like Tsukuba it's worth almost 1 sec a lap. PD was okay with it, until all the top drivers complained how extreme it is and they dialled it back. I am sure braking zone/slipstream considerations are not in Kaz' mind when redesigning TM.

Penalties and barriers on the inside of the chicane will solve the cutting problem. Ghosting will solve the second part.

Sure, and making a tighter chicane will also solve the problem.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Sure, and making a tighter chicane will also solve the problem.

Yes, but at the expense of the flow of the track. That's the whole point I was trying to make Every reason for the tight chicane existing, could be countered with an alternative solution that preserves the flow.

There's a reason why most racing drivers prefer medium-high speed corners that flow instead of tight heavy braking hairpins/chicanes. Not saying every track has to be Mugello, but the fast chicane was perfectly fine until they decide to change it for no good reason at all.

 

[Dave A]

Like others have said, in real life they might worry about overspeeding into the S/F straight but this is a game so we don't need to worry about that. I mean the game literally allows you to fly into the pitlane at max speed anyway

It's not usually about the speed, it's about overtaking opportunities. There are typically fewer overtaking opportunities in a high speed track where you can take most corners fast. Heavy braking zones and tight exits punish mistakes more and make for more entertaining races.

Of course there are occasions where a section of track has been changed to slow cars down due to safety, Le Sarth is an example of that, but the usual reason seems to be to create overtaking opportunities.

 

[DefNotJake]

It's not usually about the speed, it's about overtaking opportunities. There are typically fewer overtaking opportunities in a high speed track where you can take most corners fast. Heavy braking zones and tight exits punish mistakes more and make for more entertaining races.

Of course there are occasions where a section of track has been changed to slow cars down due to safety, Le Sarth is an example of that, but the usual reason seems to be to create overtaking opportunities.

Has that ever been a complaint for this track though? I think most Gran Turismo players just care how much enjoyment, and diversity the tracks offer in general. Not to mention, the nostalgia.

Slightly more run-off (preferably just leveled grass) around chicane should have definitely been added so those mounds won't flip over any more cars, but other than that small issue with the track, why over do it?

I'm also very against them increasing the straights, because I think PD forget that slower cars like N100's, and Go-Karts will be using this track too. Longer straights will just make the track feel more stale. The truth is though, I think that's too much work to reverse lol.

 

[Dave A]

Has that ever been a complaint for this track though? I think most Gran Turismo players just care how much enjoyment, and diversity the tracks offer in general. Not to mention, the nostalgia.

No idea, but I was talking about why those corners exist on real tracks in response to what I quoted.

As far as this change goes, until I've driven it I'm reserving judgement. It's easy to just say "why have you done that" but without driving it we don't know how well the changes made wil contribute to good racing or not. I understand it's a game, it doesn't need to emulate real tracks etc. and it may be a bad change, but I'm willing to try it first.

 

[RacingGrandpa]

Not to mention, the nostalgia.

This is the core of the problem. You want it to be in a certain way because it used to be like that.
Meanwhile PD makes the tracks from scratch and realise they now can do what they always wanted the track to be.
And they know all the new customers won't care and that all the old customers will complain but buy and play anyway.

 

[DefNotJake]

This is the core of the problem. You want it to be in a certain way because it used to be like that.
Meanwhile PD makes the tracks from scratch and realise they now can do what they always wanted the track to be.
And they know all the new customers won't care and that all the old customers will complain but buy and play anyway.

I mean, isn't the whole reason they added the track? They basically remade GT Town from GT4 in GT7 and made sure to include it in the trailer, as they showed off the new Trial Mountain. Their whole marketing strategy for GT7 is nostalgia.

The track wouldn't even have been under consideration to bring back to GT7 if it wasn't for the popularity of the highspeed chicane... yet they removed it. It's like if Laguna Seca removed the corkscrew.

 

[ScottPuss20]

Fantasy race tracks don't need to be built like real tracks, but that doesn't mean creating something whimsical with no grounding in reality. In the case of Gran Turismo, creating a track that could be built in reality fits the overall "feel" of the game. Why do we like Kyoto, Maggiore and Dragon Trail soo much? Because they look and feel like real tracks! If you showed them to someone outside this community, they wouldn't know that they're fake! For example, Nick Andrew (AR12) thought that Maggiore was a real track. Making the tracks believable is important for a game that prides itself on accuracy and detail.

 

[DefNotJake]

Fantasy race tracks don't need to be built like real tracks, but that doesn't mean creating something whimsical with no grounding in reality. In the case of Gran Turismo, creating a track that could be built in reality fits the overall "feel" of the game. Why do we like Kyoto, Maggiore and Dragon Trail soo much? Because they look and feel like real tracks! If you showed them to someone outside this community, they wouldn't know that they're fake! For example, Nick Andrew (AR12) thought that Maggiore was a real track. Making the tracks believable is important for a game that prides itself on accuracy and detail.

ngl, I have over 200 hours logged into GT sport and still had to look up Maggiore and Dragon trail on google to see what they looked like. Kyoto is a good track though. One of the only fictional tracks in Sport that seemed like it was made with something other than race cars in mind. Even has a layout decent for karting.

Edit: also forgot to mention Tokyo Expressway south outer loop. N300 open lobby races just work really well around there, and I'm not sure why. Every race there is usually really exciting.

 

[ShiftingGears]

Fantasy race tracks don't need to be built like real tracks, but that doesn't mean creating something whimsical with no grounding in reality. In the case of Gran Turismo, creating a track that could be built in reality fits the overall "feel" of the game. Why do we like Kyoto, Maggiore and Dragon Trail soo much? Because they look and feel like real tracks! If you showed them to someone outside this community, they wouldn't know that they're fake! For example, Nick Andrew (AR12) thought that Maggiore was a real track. Making the tracks believable is important for a game that prides itself on accuracy and detail.

Indeed, however PD still has a bad habit of trying to sex everything up with bridges and tunnels, or gimmick corners. St Croix is a glaring example.

 

[Samus]

Indeed, however PD still has a bad habit of trying to sex everything up with bridges and tunnels, or gimmick corners. St Croix is a glaring example.

Massive camber/banked corners seems to be their current obsession. Most of the new tracks seem to have one, for me the Maggiore one really ruins what is otherwise a realistic track.