Oversteer - Automatic Correction

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Alan_G

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Bugman_27
*This probably doesn't apply to anyone using a wheel*

I really hate this thing built into the physics where the computer automatically corrects oversteer, by a small amount. It was the same with Ferrari Challenge. It's never enough to completely save the car. But the point is the reaction is instantaneous making it less likely to suddenly lose it. Try it, anywhere - even down a straight. Snap the car into a gentle slide, take your hands off the controls, and watch the computer correct the slide.

It's quite a problem sometimes for me, particularly braking deep in to corners where there is a slight slide on the back-end; The computer corrects the slide, but I want to keep steering. So it's effectively understeer at that point, pushing you deep in to the corner away from the apex. Then eventually the computer releases the steering and SUDDENLY, grip again. It's really annoying. I want the slide. If it makes me slower round the corner, or if I lose control, then next time round just have to do it properly.

Just can't understand it. It's effectively a driving aid. Why can't it be turned off.
 
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Alan_G
*This probably doesn't apply to anyone using a wheel*

I really hate this thing built into the physics where the computer automatically corrects oversteer, by a small amount. It was the same with Ferrari Challenge. It's never enough to completely save the car. But the point is the reaction is instantaneous making it less likely to suddenly lose it. Try it, anywhere - even down a straight. Snap the car into a gentle slide, take your hands off the controls, and watch the computer correct the slide.

It's quite a problem sometimes for me, particularly braking deep in to corners where there is a slight slide on the back-end; The computer corrects the slide, but I want to keep steering. So it's effectively understeer at that point, pushing you deep in to the corner away from the apex. Then eventually the computer releases the steering and SUDDENLY, grip again. It's really annoying. I want the slide. If it makes me slower round the corner, or if I lose control, then next time round just have to do it properly.

Just can't understand it. It's effectively a driving aid. Why can't it be turned off.
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To be honest, it sounds exactly like stability control. I don't mean to sound patronising but are you sure you've turned that completely off?
 
No Alan_G is correct. It's real and it exists and there's no option to change it. The automatic steering correction is something programmed into the design. Some like it, some hate it. I personally think it's an irksome feature and partially responsible for the disparity [in the consistency] of lap times between pad and wheel users. It was also present in Ferrari Challenge and Eutechnyx once claimed they had to put some automatic correction into the design or it would make the cars too difficult to control with a pad.
 
jjaisli
No Alan_G is correct. It's real and it exists and there's no option to change it. The automatic steering correction is something programmed into the design. Some like it, some hate it. I personally think it's an irksome feature and partially responsible for the disparity [in the consistency] of lap times between pad and wheel users. It was also present in Ferrari Challenge and Eutechnyx once claimed they had to put some automatic correction into the design or it would make the cars too difficult to control with a pad.
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I've read before that the pad users are faster on the whole than wheel users. Does this not slow you down though?
 
I did a full career of FC with a pad (because my 200º wheel was useless with that game) and all I can say is that - initially - you lose a lot of time because if you brake a litle too deep into a corner you are almost unable to get back to the apex (by inducing some oversteer) and the car forces you to take a wide line in order to recover the front tyre grip.

That makes "precise braking" a critical aspect of any pad driver.

However, when you get used to it and learn the tracks (and your braking points), you can use it for your advantage. Cornering with a pad is a lot easier with a pad and if you're talking about sequences of corners" the difference is abysmal.

EDIT: This issue has been covered many times before in the FC forum. If you search by "steering assist" you'll get lots of results. Anyway, take your time to read this discussion, from post #322 onwards

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=112827&highlight=steering+assist&page=17
 
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Shaggy Alonso
I've read before that the pad users are faster on the whole than wheel users. Does this not slow you down though?
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FC and SCC are the first games which, as far as I'm concerned, put pad/wheel users on a level playing field.

With TOCA RD3, the wheel users had this ridiculous advantage. I saw it first hand - I was racing with PiortB, F1000 at Zandvoort. Entering turn 1 I was absolutely on the limit - nailed the turn in, hit the apex, caught the kerb on the exit, yet PiotrB made about 0.5 seconds on me.

Gran Turismo 5 Prologue - Don't even get me started. Logitech do a deal with Polyphony....GT5P SixAxis handling is released as so terribly defficient...what a co-incidence.

I believe, if anything, that this auto-correction thing slows me down. It's almost like a "get-out-of-jail-free-card" as Martin Brundle says. It helps when you get a bit messy. But it's certainly not faster I believe. If you drive a corner perfectly, this thing never comes into play.
 
Wheel users should have an advantage because in real life, your steering doesn't go from 0 degrees to full lock in just an inch of travel. That allows them to be that much more precise.

All games have some degree of "assist" built into the pad controls... some, much less than others. Though I'm of the opinion GT5P's pad is as ridiculously close to no assist as possible (it still won't give you full lock on the first tug of the joystick... which is a good thing)... but a little more assist, at least in throttle and brake application, wouldn't go amiss.
 
My problem with GT5P is that when you want to instantaneously (okay, "very quickly") go from 0 to 20 degrees lock, it can't happen. There's this terrible...prolonged...dragged out delay. After around 0.5 seconds, it finally gets to where you want it. This is what I'm talking about. They know what they're doing. They know that 95% of the users use a SixAxis, yet they deliberately make it terrible to handle. And then it's revealed that they do this exclusive deal with Logitech, for wheel/pedals costing around 200 euro?

The throttle (GT5P) - Why is it that the top 20% of the analogue stick controls around half of the throttle? It's just crazy. They know what they're doing. They don't just happen to make it like that. As a developer myself, I know that it doesn't just naturally happen - it has to be made to perform as it does.
 
Alan_G
FC and SCC are the first games which, as far as I'm concerned, put pad/wheel users on a level playing field.
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When one weighs the activity level here at GTPlanet, posts in the Supercar Challenge threads are about as rare as finding the actual game on a shelf in Dublin (or maybe even Lisbon). But I doubt something like this will go unnoticed. ;) I want to make a quick disclaimer because you still have time to delete it. :nervous: :lol: I can tell you, with the initial Beta of SCC, Pad users were a good 5 seconds/lap faster than wheel users at Spa. That disparity has obviously come down. Is it now 'even'? I don't think it's possible to really give a truly accurate answer because there's no way to accurately compare it.

Most people, at least console users, will play with the pad. So one has to weigh and consider the statistic. But I just found it odd that aside from certain cars, it was extremely rare to find wheel users at the top of the leaderboards in Ferrari Challenge. I admit, I'm just not that fast, a solid mid fielder at best, so it's tough for me to really judge.

I don't have the best balance. But in FC/SCC, I think the water is running to the pad users. And in fairness, it doesn't take much to get water running.

(No p****** uphill jokes please). ;)
 
Personally I like the effect. The way the cars slide through corners feels natural with this feature in...it feels good to play.

I guess that Bruno Senna helped to fine-tune this aspect of the game because it actually presents to me, as a player, the way a Ferrari F430 would feel in real life (I've never driven one). In my opinion it helps to translate the handling dynamics of a Ferrari.

It would be nice to have an option to turn it off, though.
 
I think the point I was making is more about other games, less so about SCC or FC. Pad users may have a bit of an advantage when the driving gets a bit sloppy, with this auto-correction thing. But looking at the full detail, I'm not sure how there could be such a variance between pad/wheel. Spa is a long circuit though. A better comparison would be Silverstone National.

I bought the PS3 specifically for GT5P and GT5, so that's why it's pretty annoying for me. It's a bit concerning thinking that GT5 will probably be the same as GT5P for pad users. I can be quick in GT5P, but it just takes so much more time, and such a struggle; you're learning to do everything in advance of when it looks like the car should do. One time I immediately went into F1CE to compare it, and every single corner I was just turning in SO early, cutting across the grass, having gotten so use to adapting to GT5P's peculiar pad handling.

I think for SCC pad and wheel are quite close to each other. I've been having some great 333 SP races lately with some Spanish guy, POLLERO, him using a wheel. As far as I'm concerned, I'm pushing the pad to the limit, and he's pushing the wheel/pedals to the limit. And we're really really closely matched in races. And the lap records show both of us alternating 1st and 2nd - wheel user and pad user.
 
I think the point I was making is more about other games, less so about SCC or FC. Pad users may have a bit of an advantage when the driving gets a bit sloppy, with this auto-correction thing. But looking at the full detail, I'm not sure how there could be such a variance between pad/wheel. Spa is a long circuit though. A better comparison would be Silverstone National.

I bought the PS3 specifically for GT5P and GT5, so that's why it's pretty annoying for me. It's a bit concerning thinking that GT5 will probably be the same as GT5P for pad users. I can be quick in GT5P, but it just takes so much more time, and such a struggle; you're learning to do everything in advance of when it looks like the car should do. One time I immediately went into F1CE to compare it, and every single corner I was just turning in SO early, cutting across the grass, having gotten so use to adapting to GT5P's peculiar pad handling.

I think for SCC pad and wheel are quite close to each other. I've been having some great 333 SP races lately with some Spanish guy, POLLERO, him using a wheel. As far as I'm concerned, I'm pushing the pad to the limit, and he's pushing the wheel/pedals to the limit. And we're really really closely matched in races. And the lap records show both of us alternating 1st and 2nd - wheel user and pad user.
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💡 Why don't you get a wheel?!

I don't know about SCC, but in FC I had many great close races with pad users, especially RS Racer & ENERGIYA. But I had the feeling that, in pushing hard enough to stay with them, I was always the merest wheel-twitch away from disaster, whereas they were more comfortably within their limits. Impossible to know for sure though. The fastest pad users, like MHAILWOOD/Sarrinnen were completely untouchable.

RS did switch to the wheel ... he apparently did not find the transition easy. ;) He would be the person to ask about pad vs wheel.
 
Vincent Viceroy
It would be nice to have an option to turn it off, though.
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Well, getting back to the original topic - Actually, the point I was making was that sometimes it may be TOO easy for pad users, with this auto-correction thing. It doesn't make pad users faster, doesn't gain pad users 5 seconds a lap or something. It just means whenever a risky oversteer occurs, the computer immediately catches a small percentage of it. The user has to make the difference - if the user doesn't do anything, the car will spin. But this thing does make it very difficult to completely lose the car unexpectedly.

And yes, it would be good if it could be disabled. The game is already set up for a division between so called "Arcade" and "Sim" handling, so why not just include it in the Arcade setup. Anyway, it seems to be quite heavily integrated to the physics, so it won't be changing!
 
But this thing does make it very difficult to completely lose the car unexpectedly.
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That was my point: I always felt there was a difference in that regard. Also wheel users have to contend with the dead-zone, which is an area where it is hard to feel exactly what the car is doing. Pad users don't have that problem & so can push harder more confidently.
 
niky
Wheel users should have an advantage because in real life, your steering doesn't go from 0 degrees to full lock in just an inch of travel.
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Nobody should have an advantage - the developers should make no effort to give one an advantage over the other. They should attempt to make them as closely matched as possible.

You can't just penalise the joypad because it only has an inch of travel. That's just the way it is. At racing speed, it's not really possible to go to full lock without a huge resistance of understeer. So whatever the wheel can do, the pad should also be able to. It may be a lot more physical with the wheel. That's just wheels! But I can guarantee if the SixAxis analogue stick responded the same way as a wheel, it would be really really tough to be accurate - not enough lock and you're losing speed, too much lock and you should understeer - all within the space of an inch under your thumb.


niky
Though I'm of the opinion GT5P's pad is as ridiculously close to no assist as possible (it still won't give you full lock on the first tug of the joystick... which is a good thing)... but a little more assist, at least in throttle and brake application, wouldn't go amiss.
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Yeah, GT5P has no assist at all for SixAxis. That is good. My problem is that it's the opposite - It's not responsive enough, there's a terrible lag on both applying lock and also release, and the throttle is just so ludicrously mapped as if it's trying to make it as hard as possible to exit corners without oversteer.

The brakes are perfectly mapped - apply 50% braking on the pad, you get 50% - apply 80% braking, you get 80%. With the throttle, you apply 60% and get around 30% throttle, and above that there's a sharp rise - in other words, the top 20% or so of the analogue stick/button controls about half of the throttle. Simply, this makes it very very hard to squeeze on the throttle exiting corners. It's too easy to fall either side - too slow out of the corner, or wheelspin/oversteer. It was designed like this.

And to make this relevant to this forum....that's why I play SCC!
 
And why I'm thinking of buying it myself... people have been raving about FC... so I'm intrigued enough to buy SCC. Don't think my NFS:Shift fix will last too long... so it might just take another week... :lol:
 
Depends... I don't care much about the single player campaign (and it's pretty short), and hotlapping isn't much fun when: a.) stock cars all have too much grip and b.) modified cars have terrible handling because chassis and suspension stiffening all lead to terminal bounce.

Unless a pro-physics patch and an anti-bounce patch make their way to the PS3 in the next month, I might finish my stint with this game next week. Which leaves only SCC before I inevitably go back to GT5P.

I don't know... maybe it's just me... but having to take time off from actually racing to punt at least four other players out of it, just to earn that last star... well... that's not the way I roll. :lol: And that isn't even on the demolition derby track, yet.
 
niky
hotlapping isn't much fun when: a.) stock cars all have too much grip
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Reminds me of Grid. What a disappointment. I have never been more disappointed with a game release (as it is the follow-up to Toca RD3). All of the cars handle like go-karts. I remember whipping a BMW touring car round the very tight turn-1 at Nurburgring GP, before being smashed to pieces by some moron. That was the end of Grid for me.
 
Well, you tried harder Alan, I never even took Grid online. Bought it on release day, full of hope, only to shelve it one day later.

With Shift, even if it's slightly better, is more or less the same. Also shelved by now. Hope to meet you guys in SCC as soon as I get a copy.

And, Alan, if you get a chance to buy it cheap, I strongly recommend V8 Superstars. For several reasons, but I'll give you mainly four:

1. Tyre wear (although no pits, but since it recreates an existing series where no tyre change happens, I'm not too bothered)
2. Racing in it's purest form. Close racing and with very decent AI
3. Kyalami (remember TRD3?)
4. Portimão (it's not because it's portuguese, I really think it's one of the best existing tracks out there)
 
Alan_G
Reminds me of Grid. What a disappointment. I have never been more disappointed with a game release (as it is the follow-up to Toca RD3). All of the cars handle like go-karts. I remember whipping a BMW touring car round the very tight turn-1 at Nurburgring GP, before being smashed to pieces by some moron. That was the end of Grid for me.
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I enjoyed the career mode in Grid, but once it was completed I never had an inkling to come back to it because the actual driving experience is completely unsatisfying. When I eventually did come back to it because it had some great tracks (Jarama, Spa, Istanbul Park) that I wanted to try out again, I was left very frustrated. It's not an exageration to say that the handling is more akin to piloting a hovercraft than it is to driving a car. You float across the race track and can steam through 180 degree hairpins like they're not there. I find it amazing that not a single mainstream reviewer even bothered to criticise this part of the game. I'm sure if PES 2010 came out and you were able to hold down the sprint button the whole time with the ball sticking to your foot, and then easily score goals from 45 yards, they would all be up in arms over it. But when you make a game in which the cars drive absolutely nothing like they might in real life, all of a sudden it's 'fun'.
 
This assist is really annoying. It's not just the oversteer correction but the steering lock is often not enough if you aren't driving on the racing line.
If you get used to it, you can use it for your advantage, but small driving mistakes are penalized a lot by this "assists".

All this let me drive Ferrari Challenge with the D-pad.

In SCC they changed the behavior of the D-pad making it undrivable so I use analog control there.
 
Alan_G is spot on. This so called 'assist' is plain annoying. At Riveria i managed to set the fastest time with the DBR9 but went wide on 4 corners during the lap. You just can't turn in when you want to, no matter how much camber you've got dialled in. Its almost like the programmers have restricted you to one line around the circuit.
 

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