P.I.T Maneuver

[Aquarelle]

Kia ora guys.

Now, please forgive me if this gets a little ranty, I'm a touch frustrated..

I just got P.I.T Maneuvered on the back straight of Trial Mountain.

Trial Mountain is my home turf, I grew up on it from the very first Gran Turismo, so naturally when racing online I'm generally ahead of the pack. One of my opponents seemed to have taken offense to this.
My car was faster in the corners by a massive margin (plus he was taking a rather slow line to be frank) but his was faster on the straights by a staggering degree, so on the back straight he caught up to me.

No big deal I thought. Until suddenly, BANG. His nose forcefully hits my rear left quarter full force and pushes me around full circle. (I checked the replay and saw him swerve left and then hard right, it was definitely no accident)

Now.. I've had this happen before on a controller and managed to pull it out and keep going without losing too much time. However, now I've transitioned to full time wheel use even for drifting, but I simply couldn't pull out of the spin.
I span 720 degrees, frantically trying to regain control of my S2000 before coming to a rest against the cliff.

I'm especially frustrated since everyone in the room including him knew full well I was on a wheel since I had been discussing it with a friend of mine before that very race.

What's the point of this thread beyond a rant you're likely thinking at this point? well. I want advice to put it simply.

Can anybody give me tips for reacting to and maintaining control after being tapped in the rear quarter in a RWD car on a wheel? this isn't exactly something I've experienced IRL so yeah..

Also I'm rather interested if anybody else has encountered this kind of behavior and if you'd like to share your story.

 

[Gonales]

Basically, the first thing you could do is keep your eye on him, definitely on the straight. (If you're not getting close to your braking point that is).

Besides that bit of probably useless information, I'd suggest as soon as you feel him hit you, that you hit the brakes. Definitely if you have ABS. If you don't you could try it as well, but then your reactions will need to differ.

With ABS: Hit the brakes, put the weight of the car on the front which makes it easier to control the car.
Without ABS: This depends on brake balance setup. If its equal, your car will most likely stop spinning and slide in a single direction which gives you the time to take counter measures. It's slow, but it reduces the damage you might get from hitting a wall for example.

With front brake balance, your car will Actually just understeer like hell, which is easiest to control. If you have brake balance in the rear (like I do), you're worst off. I'd suggest just flooring the throttle. I will do some tests and look for easy ways to get a FR car with a rear brake balance without ABS out of a spin.

 

[Aquarelle]

Basically, the first thing you could do is keep your eye on him, definitely on the straight. (If you're not getting close to your braking point that is).

Besides that bit of probably useless information, I'd suggest as soon as you feel him hit you, that you hit the brakes. Definitely if you have ABS. If you don't you could try it as well, but then your reactions will need to differ.

With ABS: Hit the brakes, put the weight of the car on the front which makes it easier to control the car.
Without ABS: This depends on brake balance setup. If its equal, your car will most likely stop spinning and slide in a single direction which gives you the time to take counter measures. It's slow, but it reduces the damage you might get from hitting a wall for example.

With front brake balance, your car will Actually just understeer like hell, which is easiest to control. If you have brake balance in the rear (like I do), you're worst off. I'd suggest just flooring the throttle. I will do some tests and look for easy ways to get a FR car with a rear brake balance without ABS out of a spin.

I usually check my mirrors to ensure I've got room for the corner at the end of the straight so I definitely saw him there. But my attention was more on thinking how I was going to pass him in the corner since he had the inside line. So when he hit me I was off guard. I've definitely learnt my lesson and I'll be keeping a close eye on where people are and what they're doing from now on, I just foolishly had it in my head that people online had morals and a sense of good sportsmanship.

I don't use ABS and I often have my brakes somewhere around 4-8 or 4-6 depending on the car.

What I did at the time was slam the brakes to lock them (with the S2000s characteristics it seemed the best idea at the time), 'machine gun' downshifted and then turned into the spin momuntarily to get it around before immediately turning the opposite direction while modulating the accelerator to get grip and forward momentum. But I was too flustered and just ended up spinning into the wall.

I think that method had a chance of working but it's not exactly something I can test easily

 

[GODfreyGT5]

Only thing you can do really, watch him closely and brake just as he hits you so he hits the middle of your car and not the rear corner.

 

[ryzno]

As far as trying to recover, I usually do like you would do in drifting turn into the spin to try and counter act it. Now where it becomes difficult is trying to gently hit the gas and the brake and continue to whip the wheel back and forth in the direction you need it to stop the spin.

I mastered this a few GT's ago after spinning out all the time. Its hard to do and takes practice but once you master it you can spin out at 150MPH, do a 900, save it and come out of the spin still doing like 50MPH.(Some times you will have to bring it to a complete stop, all depends on what direction you are pointed after saving it.)

As far as dude if he got under your skin that much. Wait till you find him again and return the favor

 

[Aquarelle]

Only thing you can do really, watch him closely and brake just as he hits you so he hits the middle of your car and not the rear corner.

Unfortunately I didn't see him swerving to the left. Like I said in my previous post my concentration was on plotting where his car would likely be coming up to the corner and where my possible lines were.
I've grown accustom to clean drivers over time so it wasn't a concern to me.

I mastered this a few GT's ago after spinning out all the time. Its hard to do and takes practice but once you master it you can spin out at 150MPH, do a 900, save it and come out of the spin still doing like 50MPH.(Some times you will have to bring it to a complete stop, all depends on what direction you are pointed after saving it.)

As far as dude if he got under your skin that much. Wait till you find him again and return the favor

I don't spin out anymore so it's not something I can easily practice =/.
I suppose I could try intentionally spinning my car but it goes against everything I've learnt in the 14 years I've spent in Gran Turismo and 10 years of driving in real life.
(I don't intend for this to sound smug or conceited, I just re-read it and realised it kind of does, but I'm not sure how else to word what I'm trying to say)
Also if I do 'master' that, I'd still need to get someone else involved to P.I.T me to account for the unpredictability of it.

As for getting him back, that's just not something I could do to somebody. It does really get to me that I couldn't recover and catch up, that's mostly why I made this thread, but if I had of I would of passed him cleanly.
I drive in GT like I would in a real race, not like my car is a rubber ball.

Plus everyone deserves a fair chance, even if they've so fiercely wronged me.

 

[iamsupernasty]

Practice pulling the ebrake and doing your own 180 and 360 spins. That's the easiest way to practice the feeling and get a feeling for how fast and how much you need to turn the wheel.

t's second nature now to catch a spin for myself and many others using wheels, but it's not something you can really think about, just kinda have to do it.

I will say I dont typically recommend hitting the brakes. I like to keep some weight on the back tires to keep it from spinning like a top.

 

[ryzno]

No offense taken You asked how to recover and I put in my $0.02, I know retaliation is frowned upon but it really irks me when you get spun out just because the dude cant pass you in the same turn(been there done that)

Anyways Happy New Year.

I agree with the middle line from supernasty, it becomes second nature.

 

[Aquarelle]

Practice pulling the ebrake and doing your own 180 and 360 spins. That's the easiest way to practice the feeling and get a feeling for how fast and how much you need to turn the wheel.

t's second nature now to catch a spin for myself and many others using wheels, but it's not something you can really think about, just kinda have to do it.

I will say I dont typically recommend hitting the brakes. I like to keep some weight on the back tires to keep it from spinning like a top.

I remember when I first started drifting I would just pull the E-brake so I would turn and face the way I came, it was a great way to learn how to control the wheels precisely under limited grip conditions. It seems your suggestion is a modified version of that at higher speed and a longer pull time if I understand correctly, I think I'll give this a try to adjust to how I need to turn the wheel while spinning out to get in a straight line.

No offense taken You asked how to recover and I put in my $0.02, I know retaliation is frowned upon but it really irks me when you get spun out just because the dude cant pass you in the same turn(been there done that)

Anyways Happy New Year.

I do appreciate it, really I do

Yeah it does really get to me too, but I was always taught as a youngin' to rise above those who wrong you and return their despicable behavior with courtesy and kindness. Retaliating makes you no better than those who wrong you in my book and it's just not worth it.
But I don't think any different of you for feeling that way and a very happy new year to you too.

 

[Johnnypenso]

My suggestion is to put on your big boy pants and suck it up Sally. No need to change up your strategy because one guy did one thing once. Continue on as usual and forget about it. Be thankful that's all you have to complain about in open lobby racing

 

[Aquarelle]

My suggestion is to put on your big boy pants and suck it up Sally. No need to change up your strategy because one guy did one thing once. Continue on as usual and forget about it. Be thankful that's all you have to complain about in open lobby racing

*raises hand* actually it was a private lounge.

I don't have any issues with 'sucking it up'. But why do that when I have an opportunity to improve my driving ability to better react to something like this happening in the future.

The look on a persons face after the person they just span regaining control, starting to come after them and (hopefully) passing them would be absolutely priceless.
That's why I'd like to put the effort in.

Personally I don't see the point in moving on from something like this when there's something to be learnt from it. Then I and anybody else who is interested can share our findings and what techniques work with the community, so that those who are interested can improve as well.

Is that a problem?

 

[Snow_leopard]

This have actually hapend to me but it was on a free run before the races i was goin to make a good time but all of the suden a dude came and ram me into the wall is i breake to take the turn it was on trail mountain before the second tunel and he try the same ting in the races but payback was awsome

 

[MeanElf]

I would suggest full damage lobby, especially if it's a private lounge - the bad losers tend to think twice about damaging their own steering ability. Sorry I can't offer more advice, mostly as I don't have a wheel yet.

There are some good groups out there that adhere to clean driving usually with a wide experience base and they'll be able to help you with tactics and such.

 

[NCRthree]

Sounds like the typical pub lobby stuff. I raced a little more in pubs after I got in some leagues and when that stuff happened I just laughed it off. After you've raced for points and spent hours practicing for a league race, one stupid incident is meaningless.

One bored afternoon I raced at Spa in a mixed class race. I was in an LMP and got backed up behind some GT Class cars. One guy just kept swerving in front of me in a R35 TC. First time I'd ever seen the guy so I didn't know what his problem was. Next race I grabbed the same car as his to race him. Beat him fair and square as he kept pushing his car to catch me and getting off track penalties, lol. During qualifying for the next race I'd parked off track to watch. Well he and his lobby friends decided to slam into my parked car repeatedly. I'm thinking, what did I do to deserve this humiliating treatment, lol. Then a message goes up NCR=nemesis. Next he sends me a psn friend request! I just thought the whole thing was funny.

 

[CupKonan04]

I do a lot of dirty racing with NASCAR cars around Daytona and so I'm familiar with your problem. Something that helps me a lot is dropping a gear and when your car is about to face the right direction again, crank your wheel all the way to the side your car was spinning from, you know what I mean? Here's what I mean.
Look at 0:49 seconds into the video, he has his steering wheel cranked all the way to the right to try to straighten up his car. It looks to me that he didn't tap the accelerator quick enough to give the rear tires more grip and that's why he fails. At 0:57, though, he manages to save the car. I don't know if you have to tap the accelerator in that situation on GT5, but in the most realistic NASCAR game (NR2003) in terms of physics of the cars, you have to, otherwise the car just keeps spinning and spinning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=IWpvngi5wzo&feature=endscreen

Another hint would be that you put reverse somewhere on a button on your wheel, so that you can hit it when you're spinning. Hit reverse and try to make a 360. That usually works. Don't hit reverse for too long, though. It needs a little bit of practise. After all, you can't pull out every spin, but these are (in my opinion quite helpful) tricks you can use.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

There are obviously various ways in avoiding collisions, but there's not much more you can do once you're hit than what you've already been doing, UrieHusky.

Whether I am using ABS or not, as soon as I am hit, I brake hard and turn into the slide/spin immediately (like most people), but also hold the handbrake during this too. When I can detect that grip is coming back, I let go of the hanbrake, snap the wheel in the opposite direction and bring the brake pedal to under half way or let go of it completely, depending on the circumstances.

I find that detecting when the car will snap back in the other direction is the key point to avoiding a full spin or loss of control, by adjusting the weight shift accordingly as the tyres start to regain themselves.

Also, like mentioned above, you could always practice by purposely loosing control offline and then trying to get the car back in shape. I practice this by either trying to pull "James Bond" moves; Either trying to perfrom a 180 degree turn above 120mph and then coasting backwards in a straight line, or a full 360 degree spin. Use somewhere such as Fuji with grip set to real, and dip a rear tyre into the grass along the main straight. I'll also try and and keep the car exactly halfway off the track down the entire straight, so that two wheels have no grip and the other two have full grip.

I've found it helps me deal with a lot of situations online, especially when someone nudges you into the grass. There have been a lot of occasions where in the past I would have snapped the car trying to keep control.

 

[DGXR]

I just foolishly had it in my head that people online had morals and a sense of good sportsmanship.

There's your problem. As if a fair cross-section of modern humanity is not depressing enough, the safety and anonymity of internet interactions just tends to bring out the worst of the worst.

I feel your frustration. To answer your question, there's not a whole lot to do other than what others have already said. To the best of your ability, just be aware of nearby drivers and what they are doing, and try to avoid problems... but if you drive too defensively, it is likely to distract your focus from being as fast as possible. Often the best defense is a good offense, and vice-versa.

It is the passer's responsibility to ensure that the pass is made cleanly, to reduce any impact on the driver being passed. Sometimes incidents happen that are not really anyone's fault, and they happen when people are trying to be respectful. So imagine the possibilities when people are not trying to be respectful or just simply dont give a poop. Unfortunately that's what happened to you, and I can almost guarantee it will happen again if you continue racing online. Also, it's nothing personal, that other driver would have done the same thing to anyone, not just you. So let it go and have some fun... and be aware of the other drivers. Hope this helps. 👍

 

[tlsuth41]

I have to say that most of my online racing involves my own lounge and usually the same group of courteous racers.

Incidents such as this gets you ejected and blocked.

Very maddening when someone is this thoughtless.

I don't care to learn the technique necessary to recover from something that should never happened in the first place.

 

[LR-MR-Cole]

if you spin simple, countersteer and if its at speed and carries momentum full opposite lock could in store just be quick to transfer back to other side.
If your going to lose it theres nothing you can do.

 

[Aquarelle]

Hmm a lot of very good tips, Thanks everyone!

A small update, I actually had a similar idea to you Lewis, I dipped my tyre onto the grass to intentionally lose rear traction in an attempt to simulate the maneuver

I'm still not quite timing it right to get going right away but I'm no longer ending up facing the wall every time which is definitely an improvement since reversing and doing 3 point turns is just so much slower on a wheel than on a DS3

 

[bs13]

Let off of the gas and brake, countersteer and downshift. Once your gain control and your tires are not red continue racing. Tires seem to stay red longer when using a wheel. If the guy is going to drive through you there is not much you can do except maybe turn into him and let him join in the fun. Also, always expect the unexpected. Be a defensive driver.

 

[J. Clarkson]

Once you've been tapped, wait until your car is turned 180 degrees and then steer in the direction where the front of the car was going, this initiates a second 180 turn and you'll be facing the right way again.

This combined with downshifting and feathering the throttle and/or brake (depends) will staighten you out without losing too much momentum.

This is easy with both controller and wheel, but only if TCS is all the way off.

Practise it on tracks with long straights, like Sarthe, Nordschleife etc.

 

[Nurburgthing.]

Even though its tough to do, keeping an eye on people is all you can do.

When i'm racing with starngers, I expect everyone to be dirty at first. Anticipating it and braking or moving at the right time is all you can do.

Very satisfying when it works and they end up stacking it .

 

[Aquarelle]

Once you've been tapped, wait until your car is turned 180 degrees and then steer in the direction where the front of the car was going, this initiates a second 180 turn and you'll be facing the right way again.

This combined with downshifting and feathering the throttle and/or brake (depends) will staighten you out without losing too much momentum.

This is easy with both controller and wheel, but only if TCS is all the way off.

Practise it on tracks with long straights, like Sarthe, Nordschleife etc.

Like I said in a previous post I run with all aids off, so the TCS isn't a problem, I'll add this to the techniques I'm developing and see what works best for me.
Thanks!

Even though its tough to do, keeping an eye on people is all you can do.

When i'm racing with starngers, I expect everyone to be dirty at first. Anticipating it and braking or moving at the right time is all you can do.

Very satisfying when it works and they end up stacking it .

People keep saying this, but what good will 'keeping an eye on people' do? it doesn't help me react to the situation.

I really don't want to come across as rude or anything because I really do appreciate the tips, I'm just curious as to how being more observant on a straight will help when he went out of his way to swerve out and tap me while hiding in my blind spot.
(since you need to use the directional pads to check the left mirror, hiding on the left makes you a lot harder to see than you would otherwise be)

I had raced with the guy a few times, he'd never shown such dirty traits before (Though he did quite often understeer into people through corners by pushing it too hard) but never had he used the P.I.T Maneuver on somebody.

Like I said it definitely wasn't an accident, watching the reply you can clearly see him swerving to the left and then charging right into my bumper with the added momentum and staying connected to ensure I go around.

As for "Braking or moving at the right time" his car was a lot more powerful than mine in the straights, so even if I did manage to see him and try to get out of the way, it would only be seconds until he could try again.

All of these factors are why I want to know how to react when it happens, that's why the question is "how to react to" not "How to anticipate"

 

[Nurburgthing.]

People keep saying this, but what good will 'keeping an eye on people' do? it doesn't help me react to the situation.

I know, sounds silly doesn't it.

I tend to have a sixth sense. I try to keep an eye on everyone from the off, check how they drive and pinpoint the bad drivers.

IF one of the said "bad drivers" manages to get to a point where they want to pass and I think they'll be dirty, I keep my wits about me and look out for suspicious movements and dodge or brake if needs be.

Normally, I find that dirty, ramming drivers are prone to crashing due to lack of skill.

You could always let them pass and re pass them when they put it into a bush.

 

[Morgoth_666]

Some people are really good at hiding it(or might not show it until there frustration level reaches a certain point), and so it can be tough to avoid when that happens. Usually you can see some signs that someone might be suspect before it happens to you, as long as you're near them on track.

The minimap helps eliminate that "blind spot" issue. As long as you have half an eye on that you can usually see a big swing coming at you in time to react to it. If you can make them miss(or spin themselves on your front bumper) they'll often end up wrecking themselves badly enough that they won't catch back up.

But it is tough to deal with someone who combines being fast at driving, good at wrecking, and good at hiding it from everyone until the right moment. Glad to see some tips on how to deal with the aftermath, gave me a couple of things to think about trying.

 

[fitftw]

Try the e-brake and countersteer, let go of ebrake when facing the direction you want to go.

 

[Nurburgthing.]

I also remember this happening alot in GT Prologue.

I used to drive 4wd cars. Harder to fully lose it then.