Penalty Considerations

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JohnBM01

JohnBM01

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JMarine25
Hello, GTPlanet.

This is another considerations topic, meaning you all can come in and talk about what is related to this one. Before you think about ramming into the next guy to force him to hit a thin wall, you'll have penalties to deal with. How does 30 mph for 10 seconds sound? It almost seems like you'll be running at go-kart speeds. But what if a racer rams into you and takes you out of contention? Or what if you try not to hit the wall trying to recover from a spin? Will you be charged for hitting the wall in any sense? What if you are out leading the race, make an unintentional mistake, run on worn tires, and smack into the wall trying to corner effectively? What if you try to enter the pits, but you end up banging into the barrier trying to get into the pits? It's time for Penalty considerations. I'll start.

If you are just practicing your car or taking a test run, penalties should be turned off. When in a race, of course, penalties all the way. I think there should be penalties assessed to rough drivers (especially against me) and others. Sometimes, a driver will slap the wall moderately or lightly, and are only trying to corner effectively. Heck, I remember Dale Jarrett at the Brickyard 400 one year (maybe 5-10 years ago). He slapped the wall a few times, didn't spin, but managed to finish pretty good that race. Sometimes, we brush the wall, but only to improve our driving technique. And what about the tougher courses, like Laguna Seca and Special Stage Route 11 and Citta di' Aria (that will be one TOUGH track)? Are we to blame because we can't race the track as effective as we should? We all make mistakes, so I might propose this: if you spin somebody out into a wall and you better your position, THEN you charge a penalty on yourself. If everybody is ramming for position all the way, then penalize all the racers with a 5-second penalty at a low speed. If you ram into a lapped car by accident, that is no penalty. Same goes for it a lapped car takes you out and you're leading that racer.

I have more, but I have to leave the replies up to you. So what are your considerations for penalties? Or if you like/dislike my ideas, reply right away.
 
Like in real racing, you are not givin a black flag penalty evertime something bad happens, and with GT4, I'm sure it wont be different.

I'm not sure how GT4p was with the penalty system, if you were penalized for every bad thing you did, that would be stupid. Somtimes you can crash for reasons that are not your fault, but just accidents. Even though I'm very, very good at GT3, I still lightly touch the wall when I'm pushing for a quicker time. This overactive penalty would cause me, and everybody else, to drive very conservatively, and how will that be fun?

I think building up a penalty icon of a black flag, what else, that will let the first few illegal moves "slide by" but not be forgoten. When this flag builds up and fills the icon, then when one more penalty happens, hit them with a 10 second 50 MPH speed limiter. But the problem with this, this gives someone the chance to hit someone hard until the flag fills up, so I don't think this could work great either.

I wonder how this black flag penalty system is going to work online. I know a little bumping is tolerated in real racing, but how much of a bump would it take to fill in the black flag, either just a little bit or the entire flag.

Seems like a programming nightmare to me.
 
I recently posted my concerns on this subject but I can't remember where. One of them is if you are behind some one and they slam on their brakes, will you be penalised for running into the back of them? And as Solid said, if you are side by side with some one and having a bit of argy bargy, who will get penalised, if anyone. I think penalties to defer cheaters is a great idea, but I dont see how it can be regulated efficiently.
 
Originally posted by Solid Lifters
I wonder how this black flag penalty system is going to work online. I know a little bumping is tolerated in real racing, but how much of a bump would it take to fill in the black flag, either just a little bit or the entire flag.

Seems like a programming nightmare to me.
Click to expand...

The original TOCA series had reasonably decent black flagging, and was generally pretty fair - you'd get the odd strange one, but basically it was one for a warning, two and three were points deductions, and four was a DQ.
 
I remember playing TOCA before on the good ol' PS1. The way it was advertised, TOCA was more of full-contact racing. Of course, if you wanted that with basically no black flag (except if you miss your mandantory pit stop), it would have to be "Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing." I mean, I still hate calling the game that, but that's what the name is to try to sell the game.

And as far as penalties go, this is the kicker. Will there be too many penalties for just having fun on the track? I mean, imagine taking your drifting Mazda RX-7 in Professional Mode (if there will be one in GT4), and you accidentally brrush the wall and you take a penalty? What I think the penalty system COULD be is based on Gran Turismo 3. GT3 gave you a failing grade if you hit a wall really hard. And sometimes, you try to slow down but end up hitting the wall. And what about if you try to corner aggressively and accidentally take out some cones? To me, I love Gran Turismo and especially Gran Turismo 4. I've always thought that you can have fun all you want in Gran Turismo 4. But if the penalty system gets out of whack, to the point where you have to not have so much fun, then this will become a fatal flaw that could shy people away from Gran Turismo 4 upon its release. I know GT4 wanted to prevent blowouts on the track (for example, leading second place by more than 30 seconds), but you have to remember. The other drivers are realistic too. They should be able to suffer spins and hard crashes into the wall. I mean, this ticks me off about racing games. Everyone else drives like they're better than you. You got a fast car, a high license, and what do you have to show for it? Trailing in a race when you could be leading. Sometimes, I remember in Gran Turismo 2 when I was trying to win the lower races at Grindelwald, and just when I see victory, some [CENSORED] passes me up, and I'm relegated to 2nd or worse. I remember Trial Mountain when I had to get some kind of advantage by cutting the chicane to get a TVR Tuscan as a prize. Sometimes, being strategic plays a serious part in video game racing, much less real life racing. Only thing is, you'll get penalized for making bogus moves in real life.

Gran Turismo is as real as anything else out there, so the last thing we need is something to kill the arcade/simulation style of GT4. And even over petty incidents, this can make the game become an 8.5 out of 10, rather than maybe a 9.75 out of 10. How will the penalties work? Maybe the ones who played GT4 Prologue got a taste of it, and maybe they can talk about how the system works. But by the game's release, we'll see how the system will play itself out. in the meanwhile, this is going to be a big part of GT4, so come on in and reply some more.
 
Aside to 'how' the penality system should work...

Perharps a way to turn if off could be considered. In doing so, you revert to other GT games, but the catch, to 'finish' the game and get all the bonus cars and money, you need to finish all races and events (everything), with full realism (penality).

That offers some time to practice and have fun, and still make time for serious driving.


As for how the penality system will work, i presume they could've developped a 'virtual' Damage system, where hitting objects gives damage (invisible to player). If the damage passes a certain limit, a penality is given. Then the calculation is easy, and done using the engine's physics. It would require a rather complex calculation, but if you take the car's HP, Weight and Speed before impact, and check with the circuit's own 'optimum' turn speed or stretch speed, then you can make a good calculation and will affect every cars in the same matter, be it a mini cooper with 80 hp or a Zonda race car with 650 hp.

I'm not good in maths, but it could go something like this:

Car (HP + Weight) / (car speed + optimum zone track speed) = Impact damage.

If impact damage exceed set points for penality, a penality is given to the player.



Now, my exemple is not perfect, and it actually probably doesn't work, but then again, i ain't very good in maths. But as game designs goes, that's how things are usually thought off.

Comments?

So for an exemple, if you need 30 damage point within 3 seconds of first impact to get a penality, and you ram the
 
10 secs Penalty systems sounds crap.. at least the way PD wants to implement it in GT4

One more nice feature badly featured...

If PD does not give more realism to

- oil or tires degradation, ( implemented as a real joke !!)
- pits stops
- races organisations
- Physics
(- car wash !!!! what the hell do they want to do with that !!!)

I do not see why they want to add some stupid speed limitation for 10 secs...

races use flags and pit stops. Why don't they just copy real life !!!!

OK they do not have the time !!! so do not call the real driving simulator !!!!! and work on interresting things

You know, I think everyone wait for GT4 as the best game ever... I sometimes think we will all be disappointed !!!
 
The problem with Pit/flag regulation is, those rules are based on actual races. And Actual Races have between 50 and 200 laps.

GT uses between 2 and 15. (except enduro). So the flag system doesn't apply, because for exemple, a 10 seconds pitstop is possible within 2 laps (F1 racing anyways). That's the number of laps of a regular race in GT.

That system just doesn't apply well to the GT series.
 
In fact,

Above the concept of penalty, it's the accuracy of GT series that misses consistency...

You tell it yourself... two lap races ... is also stupid...

In fact, I think that before implementing penalty or other race related things, PD'd rather spend time making GT a more accurate racing game.... more cars on track and more simulation implemented aspects... Tires and oil management in GT3 are just fun for kids .. I do not even talk about car settings... no need to spend time , just put Turbo 3 and win the challenge

OK ok PS2 hardware is a limitation ... but there are other more accurate racing games on PS2 .. but they do not offer GT driving pleasure.. and this is the only strengh of GT

When I read that PD will implement fuel consumption or animated pits, I really fear we will have two more bad implemented simulation based features ...

In fact I do not understand PD's strategy. Or at least I fear PD only tries to put some touches of simulation in an Arcade game rather than bring GT to a real driving simulation.

How the hell can this arcade penalty feature improve GT if other realism features are not now improved to what they should be !!!!
 
In GPL :

- are no artificial penalties,

- you don't want to get in the grass, as you might finish far from the track and you need too much time to get back on,

- you don't want to touch another car or wall, as it could throw you in a spin ... which makes you loose a lot of time

- you take care not to do foolish moves, as you could end upside down, and ... start again that +20 km lap on the Ring ...

- GT just needs realistic collision physics!!
 
Originally posted by Solid Lifters
I think building up a penalty icon of a black flag, what else, that will let the first few illegal moves "slide by" but not be forgoten. When this flag builds up and fills the icon, then when one more penalty happens, hit them with a 10 second 50 MPH speed limiter. But the problem with this, this gives someone the chance to hit someone hard until the flag fills up, so I don't think this could work great either.
Click to expand...
i think this is the way to go, what you would have to do is make different crashes build the flag up at different rates, so if you hit a car at 100kph you don't get much build up in the flag but if you do it faster, the build up is faster. The crashes should be worked like this, hitting other cars should be a calculation of your speed, and the other cars speed. So if your both doing 250kph and your hitting eachother, no penalty should be given. If your going 250kph and you hit a car going 150kph, then you get a penalty, if your going faster or the other car is goingslower or both, the penalty build up is greater. If you hit a wall, then the angle of impact should come into it, so you would have your speed and the angle of impact, so if your pushing for a record lap at Citta and the sde of your car scrapes against a wall then there is no penalty, if you hit it more nose first then you get a bit of flag build up. To avoid the frustration of having a big crash and your flag building up to juat a tap needed then you should be allowed to get away with the most minor scrapes that would cause your flag to build up, this is only applied when the flag is one touch from giving the penalty so if you crash and the flag has built up as your recovering you tap the wall, you don't get the penalty, if you crash and then on the next corner hit a wall, you get the penalty.
 
Originally posted by JohnBM01
I remember playing TOCA before on the good ol' PS1. The way it was advertised, TOCA was more of full-contact racing. Of course, if you wanted that with basically no black flag (except if you miss your mandantory pit stop), it would have to be "Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing." I mean, I still hate calling the game that, but that's what the name is to try to sell the game.
Click to expand...

Oh, it was - you just couldn't blatantly ram people from behind...too many times....

Running people off the road and door-banging was fine.
 
Another thing to consider about GT4 is the learning curve for new racers. Think about Gran Turismo racers who are either brand-new to the series or relatively experienced. If they foul up on the track and pay for it, the racing won't be as enjoyable. I remember racing the Dodge Viper GTS in Gran Turismo 1 at Special Stage Route 5. I was scared to push the Dodge to the limit to finish within 1 minute, 30 seconds. So if I foul up as an inexperienced racer, I'd shy away from Gran Turismo 4, since it's "expecting" a racer to have actually driven for real in the GT gaming series prior to GT4. And think about the young GT racers. Like maybe the 8-12 year olds who don't know a lot about racing. Kids can be GT racers as well. Thing is, do you give them a break, admonish the racer, or just flat out give a penalty out for a racer not being the equivalent of Michael Schmacher? It wouldn't be fair or smart.

Maybe limit the penalties to the realistic championships (like the JGTC and GT World Championship races). If you look at the Starting Grid and you see a car that you think will basically make a big blowout against the competition, then that person should be given a penalty for being so fast. This example comes from when I raced the "Stars and Stripes" event, and I saw a Corvette C5-R while I had a Ford Cobra-R Mustang. It was unfair, so I didn't even attempt to race it until I had a more capable piece of machinery. And to me, the Sunday Cup and the Clubman Cup (buit more importantly the Sunday Cup) should have a free-race seminar where you can race at any track with low-class cars. This will be a chance for you to race your car around any track you choose, so that you can test your car at speed. Other than that, such races should have penalties. And I mean, why make a 10 sec. penalty for ramming into a guy on the Test Course in a one-make series?
 
Drive through penalty for spinning or ramming another car
Love taps or light touching to gain position is ok. Aslong as no competitors get wasted.
A stop go penalty for going around the wrong way and hitting the AI (For all of the n00bs out there)
 
KY has said that the penalty will change depending on the difficulty, so one would assume that would mean more forgiving in the beginners events and less so in the professional.
 
So far, I'm not a big fan of GT4's penalty system. You have to hit the wall really quite hard to get penalized, and at that point it's not really needed, since such an impact takes a good couple seconds off your time anyway. The impacts that do help your lap time are the softer ones that give your car a little extra angular momentum in the turn, which the penalty system doesn't catch. For example, in the Ford GT time trial at NYC in Prologue, I could nudge the wall in the "icepick" turn to really sharpen up my apex, and come out at a higher exit speed...the penalty wasn't engaged.

My other concern is how much fairness there will be when handing out driver-driver collision penalties online. For example, if I get ass-rammed by someone in a turn because they broke late, will he get it, or I, or the both of us? I'd hate to get a penalty for something he did wrong...I'm also kind of afraid that there'll be people out there exploiting the penalty system and going into races just to ram people and engage penalties.

I'm very skeptical about this whole penalty thing at this point...
 
It is certainly going to be a difficult thing for Polyphony to programme into the game but lets face it. We do need something like this because of all the dishonest people out there.

It's better to do something about it than to sit back and watch.
 
no penalties at all. drive it like you stole it is my motto :D.

seriously i'm not a fan of the penalty system. i'm sure there are some outstanding drivers that will not be effected by the penalty, but for the normal gamers, this system will probably make driving/racing GT4 annoying.

as for dirty driving in an online competition. lets just say it works both ways. rubbin' is racin', but lets keep it somewhat clean ;).
 
two concerns :

- the sensibility of the system which might be difficult to code.
- the choice of the speed limit... stupid IMO

This is not sunday kart races where people can limit the power of carts by pressing a button on a remote controller... GT is supposed to be a real driving simulator !
 
Penalties will take the fun out of Gran Turismo 4. I mean, Sure, I can understand realism in racing. Heck, I remembered playing "NASCAR Racing 1999 Edition,' and I remembered having flags on. When there was a spin, the caution would be out. If you ram into the back of the pace car when it was parked, you get the black flag. But in a way, this may be a view of things to come. I mean, who knows? Maybe they can put on 20 cars to a track efficiently. And there may be realistic races by actual sanctioning bodies in the game (real or fictional).

In my view, getting accustomed to any new system to a game means that players of an old game will have to get used to that and ditch the old style. For example, when Super Mario World came out, I had to get adjusted to the new capabilities Mario would have, not to mention Mario and Yoshi debutting. It may offend some people when I said this, but if it wanted to be a racing game with sanctioning and rules, GT would have been a boring simulation long ago. Who knows? Maybe GTPlanet wouldn't have been born with such a grasp for a 1/2 simulation, 1/2 arcade game. I think online play should have with penalties unless a non-sanctioned series. Basically, one person might think that penalties should be adjusted based on the skill of the driver and the class being raced. And I mean, consider every person who can play the game. I mean, maybe a 5-year old kid, a high schooler, college students, thirtysomethings with children and a loving wife, maybe even people above age 50. You can't consider all racers equal. Also look at ladies in racing. Not a lot of girls are gamers, much less racers. Usually, girl-oriented games are stuff like "Barbie's Horse Riding Adventure," Mary-Kate & Ashley Olson thing-a-ma-jig..." or whatever. But as I said, consider all racers of all backgrounds. One way to set a preference is to have a system whereas racers can (I should have put this in another topic) custom-tailor penalty severity, just like you could in FIFA Soccer games or football games of late. And be honest. If you stink in racing, don't call yourself an All-Star. If you're an All-Star with a powerful set of cars, don't label yourself as a novice. You don't want to think of yourself as a college standout who can't even compare to Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, or Julius Irving (in fact, how many can?). But other than that, I don't think I can do Citta di Aria in 1:15 with a Stage 4 Toyota GT-One and not get away with penalties for banging into the wall.
 
Originally posted by JohnBM01
If you ram into the back of the pace car when it was parked, you get the black flag.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly confident that would be quite a light penalty compared to what you would cop if you did that in real life.
 
Yeah, try that in real life, and you'll be in the principal's office... uh, stewart's office. Not the dork in his cubicle named Stewart, the racing stewart.
 

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