Performance of muscle cars with stock gears and custom final drive

  • Thread starter shirakawaa
  • 28 comments
  • 12,003 views

shirakawaa

Premium
5,034
Japan
Japan
As you know, in GT5 it isn't possible to change the final drive only. In the Muscle Cars era, it was common to customize it to suit one's own needs. In GT5 we can approximate this by fitting a fully customizable transmission. However, to set up stock gear settings most of the time, for some reasons that only PD are able to understand, things have to be done in a certin order:

In the transmission screen:
1) Reset to default
2) Set Final Gear all the way to the right (max value)
3) Set Max Speed to XXX (where XXX varies depending on the car)
4) Set up stock gears
5) Set up the final drive

My idea is to test stock muscle car performance with final drives that were common during that time or are today. To do this, I've decided a set of rules:

- Completely stock car
- Rebuilt engine (or dealership->oil change)
- Comfort Soft tires
- During the test, use only gears from 1st to 4th (setting a value of around 0.78~0.82 for the fifth gear when the fourth gear is 1:1 is ok)
- Test with the "Speed Test" feature on Special Stage Route X.
- Select "miles" as the unit of measure

I'll start with few examples:

sT0SK.png


RHFRd.png


AbMx4.png


t8udf.png


Red = affected by the rev limiter
Speeds in miles/hour

List of typical final drives:
GM: 2.41, 2.56, 2.73, 3.08, 3.36, 3.43, 3.55, 3.70, 3.73, 3.89, 4.10, 4.56
Ford: 2.80, 3.00, 3.25, 3.50, 3.70, 3.89, 4.11, 4.56
Mopar: 2.44, 2.76, 2.93, 3.08, 3.23, 3.31, 3.54, 3.73, 3.91, 4.10, 4.56, 4.89

....


Your turn!
 
Last edited:
As you know, in GT5 it isn't possible to change the final drive only. In the Muscle Cars era, it was common to customize it to suit one's own needs.

I would just like to say that it would be nice to be able to do this. Many cars can be upgraded with different final drives and I'd love to have that option without having to buy a full customizable transmission that gives unnecessary transmission whine to cars I consider "street" cars. :indiff:

Another one to consider would be for the Mazda Miata, which has a few options available:

3.63, 3.90, 4.10, 4.30 (94-05 models)
 
For muscle cars that would be a must!

I'm realizing, though, that with only 4 close-ratio gears (stock ratios) with these cars you can either have a good top speed OR a good off-the line acceleration. It also doesn't help that without manual clutch control the game won't attempt slipping it to improve launch times.
 
This may give you some ideas as well.
http://community.us.playstation.com/thread/3411914

And here is lists' of factory and aftermarket transmissions. Manual and Auto.
http://s196.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/SnakeEyesRacing/GT5/GT5%20Set-Ups/Tuning%20things/

All the GM transmissions to date:
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/2011/GM/gm_transmissions.htm

Right now your using a GM trans, from the Chevelle M22 Close, for all your cars. However, the Ford and Dodge would have had other transmissions in these cars. Ford is the Top Loaders and Dodge is the New Process. Warner's T-10s can be used in any of them as a option part. The TKO is what is in the last SEMA winners car. Gear Vendors are add on over dives that hook up to the back of the trans and can be activated in any gear.

Now that you have more info then you could ever want, have fun..
 
Last edited:
Thanks for that.

For the time being I'm testing stock gear ratios, but that looks like a good idea for realism, and interesting to see how muscle cars equipped with such transmissions would perform in GT5.

By the way, this also made me remember how useless are the "5/6 speed close ratio" upgrades in GT5. They aren't close ratio at all (close ratio implies a long first gear like the Muncie M22 transmission seemingly equipped on most muscle cars in GT5), and most of the time they have excessively short gears even for completely stock cars.

EDIT: Just realized that you're saying that gear ratios in GT5 for Dodge and Ford muscle cars are wrong. Yep, you're right, I thought it was strange that they had the same transmission of GM ones! This is yet another error on PD's part. Gotta retest them with correct ones.

EDIT: And, wow, just tested a Ford Mustang Mach 1 with a wide ratio Top Loader transmission and 2.79 rear end, feels great with good acceleration and nice top speed.
 
Last edited:
Nice thread! 👍 I've been doing this since GT2. While the higher numerical final drive ratios might give the proper muscle car "experience" they certainly don't work too well in a circuit racing game like Gran Turismo.


I'd like to add some ratios for the Mopars. 3.08 gears were pretty common on the passenger cars, and I *believe* you could also get 2.44s as well.


Also I'd suggest toning down your tire choice. I know that magazine testers did get Hemi powered cars into the 13 second range with 3.54 and even 3.23 gears, but it was common for the test cars to be tuned by the factory. At the very least they would rejet the carbs and and bump up the spark advance, plus they weren't forced to run cold tires at some unknown specific pressure.


I haven't been playing GT5 much lately but a few quick runs in a Challenger with 3.54 gears and the proper 2.65 low gearbox gave me quarter mile times between 14.359 and 14.536 on Comfort Hard tires. This was using a DS3, so the launches were not that great. Still, I think that's pretty reasonable for an "off the showroom floor" car on cold tires.
 
EDIT: And, wow, just tested a Ford Mustang Mach 1 with a wide ratio Top Loader transmission and 2.79 rear end, feels great with good acceleration and nice top speed.

I set transmissions to maunufacturer settings all the time, and it makes such a difference.

I would love to have the option to set the final drive on the cars that I feel don't need the full racing transmission!

Nice thread.
 
I tried testing a '70 Challenger R/T with the proper transmission, and with Comfort Medium tires (as suggested) anything over 3.08 for the final drive feels stupidly short to me:

9KeMQ.png


I replaced the malfunctioning 3-speed hydra-matic transmission (in reality, not correctly simulated in GT5) of the Corvette Coupe C2 '63 with a regular ratio Munchie GM 4-speed manual transmission that was actually used on this car on other packages:

O1zI9.png


With comfort medium tires it is possible to get as low as 2.41 for the final drive without loss of acceleration potential and instead, ease of launch and increased top speed.
 
Last edited:
Outstanding thread. You have shown here why the old muscle cars in game are a laughing matter to anyone who has owned or driven one. PD just got the gears so wrong.

There are a lot of other really common things that are almost impossible to set correctly in game. First that comes to mind is tire size. A lot of muscle cars came stock with "skinny" 14" tires. Some had 15's that were a tad wider as an option.

Nowdays, if you are going to upgrade the rubber on your car, it is very very common to see rear tire widths nearly double what came from the factory, with lower sidewall size. This makes the car handle better, makes traction profoundly better, and when wider rubber is also added to the front with less sidewall, the car corners better too.

The other major thing that is missing as a tuning option is stroker motors. GT5 treats most of the HP tuning the same. Engine characteristic as you get more "extreme" in tuning is surprisingly similar at its base mechanic between a high strung 4 cly. engine and a tweaked high strung v8. the thing is, when building a sizable displacement engine this does happen to a degree, the HP curve is steep and tends to be much more in the high RPM range. But most of the common muscle car V8 engines have a stroker kit available for them nowdays. This can drastically alter the HP curve. For instance, a 71 ford mustang with a 351W engine could be stroked to 408 cubic inches. And while generally the tuning on these engines are still for performance, the amount of low end torque is drastically larger then compared to a similar HP leveled non-stroked engine. Basically, the HP gets increased but the characteristic remains much closer to stock engine baseline as compared to the HP curve moving up considerable in the tuned stock displacment engine. This type of tuning is pretty much totally absent in GT5.
 
I added a link for all the GM transmissions to date. Except the older Caddy ones with a fluid coupler.


Oh remember, most of these cars where 1/4 mile demons not road race runners.
 
Outstanding thread. You have shown here why the old muscle cars in game are a laughing matter to anyone who has owned or driven one. PD just got the gears so wrong. [...]
Another problem in addition to what you described is that PD set the rev limiter for each car pretty much randomly. Most muscle car engines should be able to be pushed to higher rpm than what they can currently achieve (stock) in-game.
I added a link for all the GM transmissions to date. Except the older Caddy ones with a fluid coupler.
Ok, thanks.
Oh remember, most of these cars where 1/4 mile demons not road race runners.
I know that, but in GT5 we're racing them on racetracks. Also, in many cases, at least in GT5, acceleration is only very marginally affected, while top speed gets a big boost.

In the meanwhile I measured the acceleration performance of the '70 Plymouth Superbird:

GOOKA.png


The first two final drives are tests to check its top speed performance. With the 2.06 ratio the car reaches top speed at peak power, but almost stalls at launch. With the 2.24 gear comfort tires slide just barely while keeping rpm high, enough to warrant with a DS3 controller the best acceleration performance.
 
Last edited:
Great thread Akira. I will try some of the gearings out when I get my new PS3 or get my fatty fixed so I can try out some of the setups. 👍

@Snake Eyes: Thanks for the info on the GM transmissions ratios for these torque monsters, but I have one question to ask.

Are you going to look at some of the real life Fords and Mopars gear ratios and compare them to the GM ones? It would be a interesting expierment to try out to see what the other trannys can do in their GT5 counterparts and see which setup is more reliable.
 
Vspec, With the Fords you have a choice between wide and close ratio transmissions.


Wide: 2.78, 1.93, 1.36, 1.00
Close: 2.32, 1.69, 1.29, 1.00


The Mopars use two different gear sets based on model year.


1970: 2.65, 1.93, 1.39, 1.00


They revised the ratios for 1971:
2.44, 1.77, 1.34, 1.00
 
Ok thanks. I'll take a look soon at some and do some expierments later when I get that PS3 fixed or a new one.
 
Great thread Akira. I will try some of the gearings out when I get my new PS3 or get my fatty fixed so I can try out some of the setups. 👍

@Snake Eyes: Thanks for the info on the GM transmissions ratios for these torque monsters, but I have one question to ask.

Are you going to look at some of the real life Fords and Mopars gear ratios and compare them to the GM ones? It would be a interesting expierment to try out to see what the other trannys can do in their GT5 counterparts and see which setup is more reliable.

This is the best Ford listing I found and I just found it.
http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Drivetrain_Ratios.html
It may also by because I'm a Chevy girl but that is for a different thread.
Chevy_anim.gif


Manual Dodge transmissions (older car only)
http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=113
Autos
http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=60
 
Last edited:
The Nissan 240RS is another victim of this as well.

Transmission Options:

1 - 2.818
2 - 1.973
3 - 1.470
4 - 1.192
5 - 1.000

1 - 2.348
2 - 1.601
3 - 1.296
4 - 1.138
5 - 1.000

1 - 2.192
2 - 1.601
3 - 1.470
4 - 1.138
5 - 1.000

1 - 3.321
2 - 2.270
3 - 1.601
4 - 1.240
5 - 1.000

Final Drive options:

3.364
3.545
3.700
3.900
4.111
4.375
4.625
4.875
5.143
5.429
 
Last edited:
SnakeEyes427
This is the best Ford listing I found and I just found it.
http://www3.telus.net/cbradley/Drivetrain_Ratios.html
It may also by because I'm a Chevy girl but that is for a different thread.

Manual Dodge transmissions (older car only)
http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=113
Autos
http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=60

Thanks for the info, I'll try this out soon maybe on GT2-GT5 soon, but I want to do more of my testing on GT5 first, until I get the PS3 fixed or something, I may try it out in GT2.

By the way, I'm glad I'm seeing girls interested in cars of any type, espically on a sim like GT welcome if you're new :gtpflag:.

And one thing, i'm a Mopar guy. And HEMIs always dominated Chevys hands down. ;)

Ever seen a Charger RT 440 blown 440ci pushing over 1000+hp? :mischievous::lol:
 
Great thread: some good work here:tup:

I don't normally spend much time tweaking gearbox settings, but this looks interesting as I do enjoy tooling about in the classic muscle cars.
 
Just for the op,but i'm sure when you do the speed test,at the end it's 1000 metres or 1 kilometre ,not 1600 metres which is one mile, unless the pal version is different.
 
In "Speed test" you can choose your units. I chose miles, so it's 1600 meters / 1 mile instead of 1 Km (= the test stops at 1600 meters).
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
In "Speed test" you can choose your units. I chose miles, so it's 1600 meters / 1 mile instead of 1 Km (= the test stops at 1600 meters).

Awesome,didn't even know you could do that.
Wasn't having a dig,cause i have only ever seen the 1000 metres.This game just gets better every day.
 
Another car which seems to get better (at least with Comfort Medium tires) as the rear axle gets taller in ratio:

j1Jbn.png


Please note that in GT5 it's got a wrong transmission (the usual GM M22 close ratio that PD used wrongly for other cars). I set up the correct values (A833 4-speed transmission).
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the info, I'll try this out soon maybe on GT2-GT5 soon, but I want to do more of my testing on GT5 first, until I get the PS3 fixed or something, I may try it out in GT2.

By the way, I'm glad I'm seeing girls interested in cars of any type, espically on a sim like GT welcome if you're new :gtpflag:.

And one thing, i'm a Mopar guy. And HEMIs always dominated Chevys hands down. ;)

Ever seen a Charger RT 440 blown 440ci pushing over 1000+hp? :mischievous::lol:

Thanks, :sly:

I like Mopars too. I just don't have the money too build them right. :scared:
 
Excellent info. 👍

Do you have a consolidated spreadsheet with realistic gear settings for the most common (muscle) cars?

Tks for this thread!
 
Back