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- TenEightyOne
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[Poll] Racing Suspended... Changes Required?
- Thread starter TenEightyOne
- 28 comments
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- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
Its such a rare occurence, that it doesn't really matter. I suspect they have put that provision in there in case of red flagged torrential rain type races, so that the teams can switch to the best-suited tyre. (otherwise it would be a mess with having do pit stops before or after the red flag, etc)
It wouldn't have made a whole lot of difference to today's result anyway I reckon, as Vettel was seemingly going to make it last (though maybe Alonso might have tried something).
Doesn't really bother me.
It wouldn't have made a whole lot of difference to today's result anyway I reckon, as Vettel was seemingly going to make it last (though maybe Alonso might have tried something).
Doesn't really bother me.
ExigeEvan
Premium
- 17,192
But if Vetel had picked up a slow puncture from the incident and had then been unable to finish the race despite the red flag people would have been arguing that he might had well as it would be devastating to force him another lap in order to pit.
It's a small, rarely used rule. Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't.
It's a small, rarely used rule. Sometimes it goes your way, sometimes it doesn't.
- 2,183
- Houston, TX
- Rosstickles
It's necessary. It's entirely possible without it there could be major wrecks in certain circumstances.
Like said above it doesn't happen often enough to warrant a change.
Like said above it doesn't happen often enough to warrant a change.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
What happens then in monsoon conditions? What if the race is stopped and there are cars still on dry tyres? They are still a safety risk for a restart then, indeed, it would be nigh on impossible for there to be a safety car restart with some cars on dry tyres still as they would struggle to keep up.
I would suggest a provision for wet conditions or make the rule specifically state a race condition like today. But to completely scrap it is a little short-sighted.
Tired Tyres
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- Tired Tyres
Yes the rule needs changing. No work should be permitted on a car between the two parts of a race because it is not a new race, it's the continuation of the old race. The only time that the tyres should be changed is if there is a change in the weather.
- 44,184
- Blackburn
- Furinkazen_54
I think they should do like NASCAR... stop on track, no service allowed. Spend 1 lap warming up tyres and let them rip.
- 3,232
- Wales
They should not be aloud to change tyres on a restart, its essencially a free pitstop for everyone, its almost a guarentee that it will influence the results of the race. Vettel was due to drop off the cliff with his tyres, his strategy might not have been good enough and perhaps he didnt deserve the win, but the rules allowing work and tyres on the restart gifted him the race win.
He may have won anyway, in that case good on him, but the safety car + restart pretty much robbed us of a genuine end result to the race.
He may have won anyway, in that case good on him, but the safety car + restart pretty much robbed us of a genuine end result to the race.
- 2,183
- Houston, TX
- Rosstickles
OK, let me pose a hypothetical situation:
Say there was a huge crash at the beginning of a race, or any part of the race really, and carbon fiber and everything was all over the race course. Let's also say that many of the cars behind the crash ran through the debris and suffered punctured tires. The race was immediately red flagged, pit lane closed, and the cars drove around track to get back on the starting grid. The cars with punctured tires would obviously change them. The cars without punctured tires may want to change theirs. They could have been in that pit stop window where the tires were starting to drop off and they were going to change tires that lap, or the next, or some lap very soon. They would likely complain about not being able to if a rule change were made.
Say there was a huge crash at the beginning of a race, or any part of the race really, and carbon fiber and everything was all over the race course. Let's also say that many of the cars behind the crash ran through the debris and suffered punctured tires. The race was immediately red flagged, pit lane closed, and the cars drove around track to get back on the starting grid. The cars with punctured tires would obviously change them. The cars without punctured tires may want to change theirs. They could have been in that pit stop window where the tires were starting to drop off and they were going to change tires that lap, or the next, or some lap very soon. They would likely complain about not being able to if a rule change were made.
- 446
- MattiDaDude
- V12 Matti Dude
This, it completely changed the dynamics of the race. Alonso and Button were both far quicker than Vettel at this stage of the race due to the strategy they had chosen, but the red flag ruined their chances of challenging Vettel for the win. Although as somebody else mentioned, it is a very rare occurance for this to happen.
Tired Tyres
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Barra333
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- barra333
Whats wrong with having it both ways? Allow repairs/tyre changes on safety grounds only (punctures, varying weather, fix crash damage), similar to the parc ferme rules.
In yesterday's race, that would have allowed Hamilton's wing to be fixed, but not let Vettel and co. change tyres.
But, like Ardius and Rossticles said above, it doesn't really happen often enough to be an issue, and most red flag situations are toward the start of the race before any strategy has started to evolve.
In yesterday's race, that would have allowed Hamilton's wing to be fixed, but not let Vettel and co. change tyres.
But, like Ardius and Rossticles said above, it doesn't really happen often enough to be an issue, and most red flag situations are toward the start of the race before any strategy has started to evolve.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
What do you do then if a car suffers a puncture on the start/finish straight or past the pit entry at the time of a red flag?
Ok, its very unlikely..but then so is the general situation we are talking about, it happened today but it hasn't ever happened before. I don't see a need to change anything.
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Stop cars from changing the tyres. It would have led to an instant classic of a race, with Button nailing Alonso and Vettel in the last eight or so laps. But then the race was stopped, new tyres were put on the car and everyone pretty much just held position. They might as well have abandoned the race altogether.
- 1,978
- Ohio
- IceManPJN
- IceMan PJN
No.
There was absolutely nothing Alonso or Button could have done to get around Vettel, no matter how bad his tires got. Alonso was already faster than Vettel and Button was faster still, faster than both, but yet lap after lap none of them ever passed because you can't pass in Monaco. Hamilton pushed some passes anyway, two thirds of which he was penalized for because they resulted in crashes. That's what happens when you try passing in Monaco, and what would have happened had Alonso or Button tried. If Vettel had suddenly lost five seconds per lap, it still wouldn't enable them to get around because there's nowhere to overtake without crashing.
Sure, you could "maybe" the whole thing. Maybe Vettel might have ate a wall. Maybe Alonso could have pulled a move like Hamilton on Schumacher and managed to get by without a crash. Maybe a sniper in one of the buildings might have shot Vettel's tire. What's most likely is that they would have continued as they did in the laps leading up to the red flag - a train of cars unable to overtake the cars ahead of them. That's what's most likely to have happened.
So, in this instance, the tire change made no difference. Restarting on the tires they had before the red flag would have created the illusion that someone might be able to overtake Vettel, but it would just be an illusion rather than a realistic possibility.
Barra333
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- 6,447
- London, ON
- barra333
All 3 changing tyres more or less did gift the race to Vettel. Had they all finished the race on the tyres they were on at the red flag, Alonso and Button might have passed Vettel. Even if they didn't, the last six laps would have definitely been more entertaining than they turned out to be.
Can't pass at Monaco?? I recall Schumacher passing a couple of people, and Webber didn't teleport past Kobayashi.
Tired Tyres
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- Tired Tyres
I'd say that the second part of my post completely answers you subsequent question. Read it again.
Several people have said that it's so rare an occurrence that the rule shouldn't need changing. That's totally illogical. When something is wrong then it is wrong and needs correction. Sticking your head in the sand and saying it won't happen again is not an option.
By the way this sort of thing happened reasonably often before the advent of the Safety Car. Of course the Safety Car covers most most issues when the race has to be neutralised but the race can still be stopped if a driver needs to be extracted from a car. Panis in Canada ring any bells?
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
By the same argument, a puncture beyond the pit entry should be covered too, even though its extremely unlikely.
Besides, I have already said that this rule could/should be altered and made more specific for wet conditions, I'm not arguing against that, just debating the other factors involved when we have red flags.
Besides, I have already said that this rule could/should be altered and made more specific for wet conditions, I'm not arguing against that, just debating the other factors involved when we have red flags.
- 19,423
- HSV
And that's pretty much what the rules were prior to last year, apparently. I felt a little robbed, but then again, having the last 6 laps be run after a red flag was kind of NASCAR-esque in the first place. Allowing them to change tires and allowing repairs to the car really defeats the purpose of all those rule forbidding outside help to the drivers and mechanics not able to work on cars outside the designated pit box.
I can't think of too many races whereby they get a red flag to change to wet tires: France (Magny-Cours) in 1992 (after about 15 laps or so) and at Dijon-Prenois (roughly 60% through at the time) back in 1981, are the only examples I can think of where everyone was allowed change to wet tires after the race had started, and then red-flagged. Basically, the race was not declared a "Wet Race" at the start, so this would happen in the more extreme cases.
I think there's a more modern example of that scenario, but I can't recall it off the top of my head. Probably not many since the advent of the Safety Car; although, all sorts of other safety-car-related weirdness like rolling starts (but no passing) and accidents during wet races have brought out red flags, but with no changes to the cars in the past. When it's all said and done, it can seem as if the rules are a tad arbitrary when comparing the stewards' decisions when comparing between events over the years.
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- 10,373
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- Ardius_
I didn't mean a red flag due to people being on the wrong tyres, I meant a red flag due to conditions like 2009 Malaysia or 2007 Nurburgring - if some cars were on the wrong tyre at this point it would have been silly to restart with the same tyres.
If the conditions had dried or become worse before the restart, its not really clever to force drivers on dry tyres to drive in the wet or vice versa.
So, as I say, change the rule so people can't change tyres but add in an exception for dramatic conditions so drivers can switch to wet tyres or dry tyres if necessary.
If the conditions had dried or become worse before the restart, its not really clever to force drivers on dry tyres to drive in the wet or vice versa.
So, as I say, change the rule so people can't change tyres but add in an exception for dramatic conditions so drivers can switch to wet tyres or dry tyres if necessary.
Tired Tyres
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Well actually I'm not sure if there is a rule to do with the pitlane in red flag conditions? I have wondered why people don't try and pit during this time, perhaps the pit is closed? Or perhaps the rule simply states the competitors have to line up on the grid, and no word on letting them pit?
I don't think its as cut and dry as simply changing the regulation so people can't work on the cars. But of course I'm probably wrong.
In any case, I agree with the fact we lost a good race here and the rule needs to be changed. I'm just saying it might not as simple as getting rid of the rule.
I don't think its as cut and dry as simply changing the regulation so people can't work on the cars. But of course I'm probably wrong.
In any case, I agree with the fact we lost a good race here and the rule needs to be changed. I'm just saying it might not as simple as getting rid of the rule.
Tired Tyres
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I did link the rules in the OP... drivers may not pit and must line up on the grid. The cars "can be worked on" as long as that work doesn't interfere with a restart and as long as the wheels are back on at the 3 light.
I think that at most tracks a red flag with 6 laps to run would have been the end of the race... in the case of Monaco I suspect that Race Control were aware that everyone (themselves included) had been deprived of the spectacular finish and wanted to give it one last chance.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
Nah, the reason they ditched that rule is because it took several laps to organise it, which wastes everyones time. The FIA decided it was better to at least go racing for several laps even if backmarkers are in the way than to waste valuable time waiting for backmarkers to circulate back to the safety car.
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