Porsche halts production and delivery of GT3

[Blackbird.]

This seems to have gone under the radar(sort of) I read about this on Audizine.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/114021570291/porsche-halts-911-gt3-deliveries-after-five-cars-caught

I hope it's a minor issue they can fix during production that's causing these fires.

 

[Azure Flare]

I would like to personally test all future 991 GT3s before they are handed off to customers.

 

[Blackbird.]

I would like to personally test all future 991 GT3s before they are handed off to customers.

I see what you did there...

 

[kikie]

Its seems that Porsche is just a beautiful car instead of a beatiful and reliable car. This doesn't change the fact that it remains my favourite car though.

 

[Blackbird.]

Its seems that Porsche is just a beautiful car instead of a beatiful and reliable car. This doesn't change the fact that it remains my favourite car though.

Not trying to sound like a fanboy here although I like Porsches alot and respect them but...

Have there been alot of defects with Porsches recently that I haven't heard about? Or is this from personal experience?

 

[kikie]

The 997 3.8 first generation engine were utterly crap. Two Porsche garage owners told me a couple of weeks ago that a percentage of the 997 3.8 went kaputt at around 130,000km (80,778 miles). Many owners had to replace the 3.8 engine.

The 996 had as far as I know the same engine problems. Newer 997 models didn't have these problems anymore. The 997 3.6 is a reliable car. The 997.2 had a better 3.8 engine than the pre facelift 997.
The 964 used more oil than gasoline (some of them). Although Porsche is a reliable car, it use to have, as every other car, mechanical bugs. The 991 on the other hand, is said to be a very reliable car, except for the 991 GT3 ofcourse, hence this thread.

No personal experience.

 

[McLaren]

The 997 3.8 first generation engine were utterly crap. Two Porsche garage owners told me a couple of weeks ago that a percentage of the 997 3.8 went kaputt at around 130,000km (80,778 miles). Many owners had to replace the 3.8 engine.

The 996 had as far as I know the same engine problems. Newer 997 models didn't have these problems anymore. The 997 3.6 is a reliable car. The 997.2 had a better 3.8 engine than the pre facelift 997.
The 964 used more oil than gasoline (some of them). Although Porsche is a reliable car, it use to have, as every other car, mechanical bugs. The 991 on the other hand, is said to be a very reliable car, except for the 991 GT3 ofcourse, hence this thread.

No personal experience.

What kind of nonsense are you posting in this thread?

5 fires of unknown causes, & suddenly the new GT3 is on the verge of becoming as reliable as old Alfas? This is Porsche taking early precautions. It hardly means the cars are unreliable at all because it could be an issue that may possibly never affect other owners, just like the pedal case with Aston Martin where several owners have stated their vehicles have been solid & fine, with the whole China supplier being blown out of proportion. Much like you the statement you're making because of 5 (out 1.5 months worth of deliveries) examples catching fire = unreliable car.

 

[kikie]

What kind of nonsense are you posting in this thread?

5 fires of unknown causes, & suddenly the new GT3 is on the verge of becoming as reliable as old Alfas? This is Porsche taking early precautions. It hardly means the cars are unreliable at all because it could be an issue that may possibly never affect other owners, just like the pedal case with Aston Martin where several owners have stated their vehicles have been solid & fine, with the whole China supplier being blown out of proportion. Much like you the statement you're making because of 5 (out 1.5 months worth of deliveries) examples catching fire = unreliable car.

McLaren has spoken. Kikie is talking nonsense.
So, people, don’t believe what I say anymore because 5 engines of a new developed car, catching fire after a drop of oil pressure and strange noises coming from the engine bay is absolutely not a reliability issue at all. It’s a normal procedure of Porsche to sell cars that get destroyed while driving.

Halting production and deliveries of the GT3 seems to be an early precaution according to McLaren.

This early precaution already caused 5 Porsche owners to lose their precious car. They probably get a new one, oh wait, nope not possible because Porsche stopped all deliveries of the GT3.

I’m probably talking nonsense again but IMHO, an early precaution is not selling the cars in the first place and resolve this fire-catching-engine-issue before starting selling the GT3.

Yes.
Because an engine that gets destroyed while driving is not a reliable engine. The fact that Porsche is going to stop production and deliveries is IMO proof of that.

Apparentely, a sudden drop of oil pressure, strange noises coming from the engine and than a car starting to catch fire is an unknown cause. IMO, the unknown cause is why the oil pressure suddenly drops in the first place. And that is the reliability issue.
Lets hope that you are correct that these 5 GT3's catching fire are going to be the only 5 with this engine problem (issue).

I'm going to shut up now because seeing how many "like" he has got, he must be right and I'm clearly wrong.

 

[NoobMan DS]

This just reminds me of the burning 458 Italias. Oh dear.

 

[McLaren]

McLaren has spoken. Kikie is talking nonsense.
So, people, don’t believe what I say anymore because 5 engines of a new developed car, catching fire after a drop of oil pressure and strange noises coming from the engine bay is absolutely not a reliability issue at all. It’s a normal procedure of Porsche to sell cars that get destroyed while driving.

You posted as if the car was not reliable at

I’m probably talking nonsense again but IMHO, an early precaution is not selling the cars in the first place and resolve this fire-catching-engine-issue before starting selling the GT3.

Obviously it wasn't a known issue during the initial 200 examples til' now.

Yes.
Because an engine that gets destroyed while driving is not a reliable engine. The fact that Porsche is going to stop production and deliveries is IMO proof of that.

Now your argument is revolving around the engine itself.

I'm going to shut up now because seeing how many "like" he has got, he must be right and I'm clearly wrong

I didn't make this statement though you're correct in posting you're wrong.

If this issue means the 991 GT3 is unreliable, then that means every major super car is unreliable considering the majority of them have all had recalls for issues regarding fire warnings. This an unfortunate event that just ended up affecting the first model year.

The 991 GT3 is still arguably the most reliable GT3 ever built. This is nothing more than a hiccup at the beginning.

 

[Stotty]

The 997 3.8 first generation engine were utterly crap. Two Porsche garage owners told me a couple of weeks ago that a percentage of the 997 3.8 went kaputt at around 130,000km (80,778 miles). Many owners had to replace the 3.8 engine.

The 996 had as far as I know the same engine problems. Newer 997 models didn't have these problems anymore. The 997 3.6 is a reliable car. The 997.2 had a better 3.8 engine than the pre facelift 997.
The 964 used more oil than gasoline (some of them). Although Porsche is a reliable car, it use to have, as every other car, mechanical bugs. The 991 on the other hand, is said to be a very reliable car, except for the 991 GT3 ofcourse, hence this thread.

No personal experience.

Some 996 & 997's (inc. Boxsters and Caymens) suffered from IMS (intermediate main shaft) issues that resulted in catastrophic engine failure.

Less of an issue on early (pre 2000) cars, and much less of an issue on later 997's.

No hard facts as to what cars are affected and at what mileage (some have gone when relatively low miles, some at higher miles), but less likely to affect cars that are driven regularly. My '00 996 has over 143k miles on it and has had no engine issues at all and uses no oil between services.

The IMS issue affects 3.4's, 3.6's and 3.8's - it's not specific to the 3.8 engine in the 997.

If out of warranty, engines can be rebuilt at much less than the cost of a new engine from Porsche - a full rebuild on a 996 is c.£4.5k (exchange)... which is considerably cheaper than a rebuild for a TVR IL6 for example, and a rebuild on a TVR is 100% expected.

A number of independent Porsche specialists now produce a part upgrade that prevents the issue.

996/997 GT3/GT2/Turbo's do not suffer from the same issues as they use a different engine (known as 'Mezger' after Hans Mezger, who designed it) - the same engine that's been used in pretty much all Porsche's motorsport cars over the past 20+ years, including the GT1.

There are no issues at all with 996/997 GT3/GT2/Turbo engines. Turbo's will take massive boost increases on standard bottom ends for example. And GT3's use the same engine as the regular GT3 Cup Car... RSR's use slightly different internals. A stock 997 GT3RS finished 13th at the Nurb 24H race a few years back. The Mezger 3.8 is a classic example of a 'bullet proof' engine!

All Porsches can suffer from oil use if the RMS (rear main seal - the seal between the engine and transaxle) is worn or not fitted correctly... but this leak related and not the engine using oil.

991 GT3 delivery deliver delays are due to 2 issues... 1) sub quality sump bolt delivery from a supplier & 2) software issue that has affected a small batch of cars.

Considering the 991 is a clean sheet design and uses a brand new engine (developing close to 500bhp 3.8l at 9k revs), it's not unreasonable to expect an occasional issue - many manufacturers (including Ferrari when the 458 launched) have had similar issues with new models.

There are currently c.30 991GT3 owners on Pistonheads, and all are raving about their cars!

 

[kikie]

Now your argument is revolving around the engine itself.

That's what I was talking about all the time. The GT3 is in my opinion an unreliable car due to engine problems. I clearly wasn't expressing myself correctly but I thought it was clear because it is the engine that has reliability problems. I should have said that the GT3's engine is not reliable. Then again, an engine that is unreliable makes the car unreliable, generally speaking.
I'm sure Porsche will sort this thing out and will make the GT3 a supercar without problems for every rich Porsche 911 fan to enjoy.

I didn't make this statement though you're correct in posting you're wrong

Nope you didn't. I didn't say you did. It was sarcasm because my opinion is still the same. A new car that has an serious problem with the engine is an unreliable car.

If this issue means the 991 GT3 is unreliable, then that means every major super car is unreliable considering the majority of them have all had recalls for issues regarding fire warnings. This an unfortunate event that just ended up affecting the first model year

Maybe my definition of unreliable is different from yours. Don't forget, English is not my first language and it is, even after sooo many years (started in school with English when I was a little over 10 year old) still problematic for me to express myself properly and understand what certain words mean.

The 991 GT3 is still arguably the most reliable GT3 ever built. This is nothing more than a hiccup at the beginning.

I'm sorry McLaren but you call 5 cars catching fire a hiccup?
I don't think that the owners of these 5 GT3's call it a hiccup and probably neither does Porsche. A hiccup would be an engine issue that is repairable and doesn't destroy an entire car by fire.

Let us leave it at that shall we and enjoy this thread.

I say it's a serious reliability probelm and you say it's a minor issue or a hiccup. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Thanks for the discussion.

.
.
.The IMS issue affects 3.4's, 3.6's and 3.8's - it's not specific to the 3.8 engine in the 997.
.
.

I didn't know that. I was told it was mainly a 3.8 problem.
Good to know, thanks for the heads up.

 

[Stotty]

I don't think that the owners of these 5 GT3's call it a hiccup and probably neither does Porsche. A hiccup would be an engine issue that is repairable and doesn't destroy an entire car by fire.

Considering that this has affected only a relatively small number of cars and Porsche haven't needed to recall those cars already delivered to their owners, I'd say it's more of a hiccup than a major issue... it certainly doesn't appear to be a fundamental issue with the design of the engine or there would have been a full recall as Ferrari issued on the 458 shortly after deliveries started (1,248 cars needed to be modified to prevent risk of fire).

 

[Danoff]

I absolutely love it when manufacturers stand behind their products like this. This kind of thing, and massive recalls are usually reported as a black eye for manufacturers - I see it as a very positive thing. It means they're dedicated to having a quality product. Would people prefer that car manufacturers tried to sweep this sort of thing under the rug? It should make you more comfortable buying a porsche, not less.

 

[kikie]

Seriously? Engines catching fire a hiccup? Come on. Tell that to the owners who say their car going up in flames.

 

[McLaren]

Seriously? Engines catching fire a hiccup? Come on. Tell that to the owners who say their car going up in flames.

You should just stop. The argument you're attempting to make doesn't exist. This car is still the most reliable GT3 ever built, end of story.

 

[kikie]

You should just stop. The argument you're attempting to make doesn't exist. This car is still the most reliable GT3 ever built, end of story.

My argument is a good argument. End of story!

So, please you stop quoting me. I tried to be nice but this is getting a little bit (un) nice.

I have my opinion, you have yours. Let's leave at that, as I already asked. Ok?

 

[McLaren]

My argument is a good argument. End of story!

It's not. An unreliable car is a car with a large, documented history of issues affecting a large percentage of the production over a certain period of time.

The GT3 deliveries have only been out 2 months max. There's only 200 units built so far. Thus, there is no data to suggest the car is unreliable just because 5 cars have had issue.

 

[kikie]

Follow your own advice and stop. This is the third time I asked to stop.

 

[McLaren]

Follow your own advice and stop. This is the third time I asked to stop.

I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. You don't get to make posts & act like they can't be responded to.

Besides genius, you said you were done beforehand yet then made a comment towards Stotty's post. Don't tell me to follow my advice when you've shown you can't follow your own.

 

[guywithanAE86]

You should just stop. The argument you're attempting to make doesn't exist. This car is still the most reliable GT3 ever built, end of story.

Well let's face it, no matter how much we like a car, it bursting into flames is a bit of an issue. Reliability doesn't mean much when the car's a pile of cinders. It's obviously an issue when Porsche are stopping production of the car to see what's up.

I love Toyotas yet I don't straight up deny when something's wrong with my AE86. No offense just saying.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

If I have a Porsche for a year and it caught fire when I drove it, then some others follow suit and the company decided to stop production, I would say it's unreliable, at least on my car that caught fire ( broken due to defects and not my negligence )

 

[McLaren]

The issue with what you're presenting is that the car was unreliable for you & 4 others.

You have owners on Rennlist who absolutely have no issues with their cars & many have been tracking them hard without fault. To them, the cars are rock solid.

Thus again, it's difficult to make the argument that 5 fires means the car is unreliable when you have a larger percentage owners who think the exact opposite. Owners who had previous GT3s & are the ones declaring how much more usable this one is every day.

It's a small hurdle that fortunately has only happened now instead of 2 years down the road.

 

[Danoff]

Well let's face it, no matter how much we like a car, it bursting into flames is a bit of an issue. Reliability doesn't mean much when the car's a pile of cinders. It's obviously an issue when Porsche are stopping production of the car to see what's up.

I love Toyotas yet I don't straight up deny when something's wrong with my AE86. No offense just saying.

Toyota being a prime example of a company who had a major problem with stuck accelerators (or was it defective brakes, or perhaps both) who didn't halt production and get out in front of the problem. They tried to deny (or perhaps ignore) at first, exactly what Porsche isn't doing. Kudos once again to Porsche.

Edit:

Looks like 3 in total. 2 for acceleration issues, one for brakes. I remember some uncertainty about what Toyota was going to do when this was discovered. They eventually came around and recalled millions of vehicles, but it wasn't immediate or initiated by Toyota. It was initiated by media coverage of problems.

 

[guywithanAE86]

Toyota being a prime example of a company who had a major problem with stuck accelerators (or was it defective brakes, or perhaps both) who didn't halt production and get out in front of the problem. They tried to deny (or perhaps ignore) at first, exactly what Porsche isn't doing. Kudos once again to Porsche.

Edit:

Looks like 3 in total. 2 for acceleration issues, one for brakes. I remember some uncertainty about what Toyota was going to do when this was discovered. They eventually came around and recalled millions of vehicles, but it wasn't immediate or initiated by Toyota. It was initiated by media coverage of problems.

Keep in mind Toyota's a much bigger company than Porsche, so it's gonna take more resources to recall all those cars in the first place. It doesn't justify the delay in the recall mind you.

Besides, the GT3 was built for tracking, if something's wrong while driving hard, it's gonna be a MUCH bigger problem than just driving to the store for an errand run. I for one would prefer brake failure or a jammed accelerator rather than myself and my car bursting into flames.

 

[Danoff]

I for one would prefer brake failure or a jammed accelerator rather than myself and my car bursting into flames.

Shot in the head or stabbed in the head? Hmmmm.....


I dunno. Worst of course would be if the accelerator jammed and then after you crashed the car burst into flames. Perhaps Toyota and Porsche should work together.

 

[guywithanAE86]

The issue with what you're presenting is that the car was unreliable for you & 4 others.

You have owners on Rennlist who absolutely have no issues with their cars & many have been tracking them hard without fault. To them, the cars are rock solid.

Thus again, it's difficult to make the argument that 5 fires means the car is unreliable when you have a larger percentage owners who think the exact opposite. Owners who had previous GT3s & are the ones declaring how much more usable this one is every day.

It's a small hurdle that fortunately has only happened now instead of 2 years down the road.

Dude, it doesn't change the fact that 5 cars blew out. Who's to say it's not gonna happen to the other drivers? They were bought and built around the same time with no modifications since, so it's likely they're just as susceptible to exploding than anyone else.

And seriously, ENGINE BLOWOUTS ARE NOT SMALL ISSUES. POTENTIALLY LETHAL ENGINE BLOWOUTS ON A SUPERCAR IS NOT "SMALL" IN ANY WAY.

 

[guywithanAE86]

Shot in the head or stabbed in the head? Hmmmm.....


I dunno. Worst of course would be if the accelerator jammed and then after you crashed the car burst into flames. Perhaps Toyota and Porsche should work together.

I think you mean shot in the head or punched in the chest. At least you can walk away from a crash in a Prius on a normal drive, on a track day in a GT3, I'm not so sure on.

 

[Danoff]

I think you mean shot in the head or punched in the chest. At least you can walk away from a crash in a Prius on a normal drive, on a track day in a GT3, I'm not so sure on.

I was thinking that a car fire usually gives you a chance to stop and get out, whereas a stuck accelerator or missing brake pedal can very quickly lead to being dead.

 

[guywithanAE86]

I was thinking that a car fire usually gives you a chance to stop and get out, whereas a stuck accelerator or missing brake pedal can very quickly lead to being dead.

A car fire while the car is driving? Dude I dunno what planet you're living on. Cars don't just burst into flames while parked. Brake failure can at least be coped with by downshifting or engine braking.