Porsche Now 25% Owner of Volkswagen

[YSSMAN]

Porsche intends to acquire a further 3.9 percent of Volkswagen, the automaker announced todat. To this end, the company has filed an application to the German Federal Cartel Office to request its approval of the planned increase of its stake. Acquisition of the shares would increase the sports car manufacturer’s holding in VW from the present 21.2 per cent to 25.1 per cent of the voting rights, meaning that it would obtain a controlling minority in the Group.

I really don't think this is a horrible thing. Considering that Porsche is partially responsible for the creation of Volkswagen, its about bloody time they get back together. But they have always had a semi-working relationship going on with models like the 914 and the Cayanne.

Maybe this is the way that Porsche will be able to get ahold of the DSG technology for the 911 and Panamera, and another way for VW to get back into producing RWD cars.

I really cannot see a bad side to this deal, I really cannot...

 

[Onikaze]

Hmmm.

Possible upsides, better interiors for Porsche, another attempt to reach into a more downmarket crowd with a FR 928 type car.

RWD chassis sharing for VW, Porsche's awesome AWD tech sharing.

Possible downsides, a FWD badge engineered entry level "Porsche".

 

[JCE]

I can picture an affordable Porsche coming soon...which is a great thing.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, the Boxster is "affordable," but sadly the performance is "laughable" when in base form.

 

[red70mach1]

I won't bet on a front drive Porsche. On paper it won't sell.

 

[harrytuttle]

I really don't think this is a horrible thing. Considering that Porsche is partially responsible for the creation of Volkswagen, its about bloody time they get back together. But they have always had a semi-working relationship going on with models like the 914 and the Cayanne.

Um, what? Porsche *is* Volkswagen. Granted, the two companies are have diverged over time, but: Ferdinand Piech, head of VAG, grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, creator of Porsche. Or you could just look it up:

http://people.westminstercollege.edu/staff/bknorr/html/history.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen

Maybe this is the way that Porsche will be able to get ahold of the DSG technology for the 911 and Panamera, and another way for VW to get back into producing RWD cars.

I really cannot see a bad side to this deal, I really cannot...

I'm not so concerned that VW could gain rear-drive platforms, but it would be really nice if Porsche could finally ditch that awful Tiptronic in favor of DSG. In my disgruntled opinion, a Porsche should never have a true automatic transmission. Remember, kids: when you see a torque converter, stop, drop, and roll.

 

[harrytuttle]

Well, the Boxster is "affordable," but sadly the performance is "laughable" when in base form.

Compared to what? It's still an extremely sweet-handling car that just happens to feel way underpowered. It's not like an Audi TT, where you're buying style over substance. The base-level Boxster is really a good car. Do not let your American predjudices of the Corvette being the final word on performance bargains blind you to the fact that brute force is not the only way to enjoy driving. Just try a 2003 Toyota MR2 for a day. Or better yet, any Lotus Elise. There is more to driving than blasting your way through everything...although that can be really fun. 👍


And don't be surprised about a front-drive Porsche selling. How many of you (myself included) thought a Porsche SUV would just about spell the end of Stuttgart's finest?

 

[YSSMAN]

I never said the Boxster was a bad car, but in base spec, it most certainly isn't my cup of tea. For that price and with that performance, I'm far better off with a Honda S2000 or Pontiac Solstice GXP.

...Granted, neither have the same level of German craftsmanship or that special feeling that all German cars have, but the only Boxster I'd ever concern myself with would be the S.

---

BTW: If we are going to bring up the Elise, I don't even consider it a compeditor to the Boxster, directly of course. Given the performance of the Lotus, I put it in the same category as the Z51 C6 and M3, as it is truely one of my favorite sportscars.

But interestingly enough, I find the 160 BHP Elise S more appealing than the 190 BHP Elise R we see in the US, given it's lower price and overall greater "driveability" due to the lack of those crazy Toyota cams in the top-line version.

 

[a6m5]

I didn't realize that Porsche had so little stakes in Volkswagen. Also, I used to think that Porsche was part of the VW Group. I was wrong!

 

[niky]

Well, the Cayenne SUV was a success because it combined the status symbol connotations of Porsche and SUV into one package. Porsche's other forays into a post-911 world haven't had such success.

Remember the 914? The 924, 928 and 944? Not bad cars, but just not "Porsche" enough for people. The Boxster lived because it looked sorta like a Porsche, and because convertibles are a fashion statement. It's only a bonus that it's a good handler. So, good cars+Porsche nameplate-911=no sale, but fashion statement/status symbol+Porsche nameplate=hit.

Not to take anything away from the Boxster, but it sold in droves because it was a cheaper 911 for the aspirationally minded... not because it was a good sports car (though that factor, no doubt, produced quite a number of sales, too). Same with the Cayenne. The handling is a bonus, the wanna-Porsche mentality is what made it sell.

I don't see Porsche going any further downmarket than the Boxster/Cayman... they ain't BMW, you know.

I don't see Volks going RWD, either... wouldn't make much economic sense, what with the huge amount of platform sharing they do. But an MR VW convertible or coupe (much like the 914, only good) slotting into the price range under the Boxster, with Boxster underpinnings in a smaller body and with a VW engine would probably be a good bet.

 

[Poverty]

Porsche created DSG, except didnt call it DSG, and VAG took it and made it work for theyre cars.

Ive always considered Porsche to be like a step brother to vag or maybe a long lost brother as theyre basically the same company with all the technology and resource sharing.

 

[YSSMAN]

@ niky: I wouldn't be upset seeing a Boxster chassis powered by a VW 2.0T...

 

[Poverty]

I hope the boxster stays the base model, unless they make a elise type car with the 2.0T FSI or 1.6 twincharge.

 

[Onikaze]

That is true, Porsche made the DSG work, they just couldn't make it cheap enough for a car, VAG did.

A VW like the Concept R with Boxster underpining and a 1.6 TSI sounds nice.

I'm a Cayman guy myself.

 

[Tornado]

I won't bet on a front drive Porsche. On paper it won't sell.

Niether does a V8 powered SUV, or mid-engined Flat-6 sports car that is faster than the 911. Hell, Jeep is about to sell an even uglier version of the Caliber. That doesn't make sense. However, the 914 taught Porsche to not try to go that far downmarket, so it most likely won't again.

Remember the 914? The 924, 928 and 944? Not bad cars, but just not "Porsche" enough for people. The Boxster lived because it looked sorta like a Porsche, and because convertibles are a fashion statement. It's only a bonus that it's a good handler.

I disagree. The 924 and 928 were successfu cars (the 928 might not have been as much as was wanted, but it had more to do with the fuel crisis of '74 than the name on the car). They sold both for 20 years, and only stopped when the price of the cars had to rise due to the 90's reccession. The 914 was the epitomy of failure though, and it's sad because the Boxer 6 version could outhandle the 911 much like the Cayman S and 968 CS could.

Um, what? Porsche *is* Volkswagen. Granted, the two companies are have diverged over time, but: Ferdinand Piech, head of VAG, grandson of Ferdinand Porsche, creator of Porsche. Or you could just look it up:

That is true, but Porsce AG and VAG have never ever owned any part of each other in any way up until Porsche bought 20% of VAG last year. In all honesty, this is probably all just a plan masterminded by Peich to take control of the company again and try to sell the W12 Nardo or something.

 

[YSSMAN]

Well, don't forget that VAG owns a good ammount of Porsche as well. Quite frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see it turn into a PsA (Pugeot/Citroen) type deal...

 

[Jim Prower]

I personally would like to see the return of the rear-drive Bug.....

(And with Porsche engineering, that seems a bit more likely.)

 

[JCE]

I personally would like to see the return of the rear-drive Bug.....

(And with Porsche engineering, that seems a bit more likely.)

WOO TEH BUGZ0R DRIFTAR! VeeDub Beetle Drifter FTW!

 

[harrytuttle]

I never said the Boxster was a bad car, but in base spec, it most certainly isn't my cup of tea. For that price and with that performance, I'm far better off with a Honda S2000 or Pontiac Solstice GXP.

...Granted, neither have the same level of German craftsmanship or that special feeling that all German cars have, but the only Boxster I'd ever concern myself with would be the S.

I think we're in agreement on this. The base-level Boxster is like buying a BMW 318i: desperately wanting the badge, but couldn't quite stretch the budget any further (although I could have been much harsher, couldn't I?). The only thing holding the Boxster back is the 911, which I am convinved that a 320HP Boxster could absolutely put to shame.

BTW: If we are going to bring up the Elise, I don't even consider it a compeditor to the Boxster, directly of course. Given the performance of the Lotus, I put it in the same category as the Z51 C6 and M3, as it is truely one of my favorite sportscars.

But interestingly enough, I find the 160 BHP Elise S more appealing than the 190 BHP Elise R we see in the US, given it's lower price and overall greater "driveability" due to the lack of those crazy Toyota cams in the top-line version.

Then good news: The 138HP Toyota MR2 engine is going to be dropped into a new, basic Elise in the US. Just as peaky, only with less power.

Performance aside, I would hesitate to pitch the Elise/Exige against something like the M3 or Corvette. I have yet to find an owner of either who considers the bare-bones interior (and exterior) of the Elise attractive. Of course, these are the same people who could afford both, if only they bothered to drive the thing.

 

[YSSMAN]

My only complaint ever with the Elise/Exige was the choise of Toyota as the engine supplier. Granted, either a Toyota or Honda engine would have presumably been the best picks for the cars (given their preference twards the high-end of the RPM range), but I would wan't mine with the VW 2.0T if given the choise.

The extra power with the turbo both on the bottom and top ends would boost performance, possibly, and give the car a bit more driveability in the day-to-day operations department.

Granted, they are great cars nonetheless. (I'm not kidding here) My neighbor that lives a block or so away from me has a blue Elise, and it is quite the sexy car. I see him driving it around quite often, and he appears to be having fun in most circumstances. But given my large size (6ft, 170lbs), I might not fit in the car too well.

Corvette it is!!!

---

Back to the whole Porsche/VAG deal, I got to thinking about some news that was floating around a year or so ago in which VAG was apparently working with Maserati on a new full-size RWD platform. Has the program been ditched in favor of something from Porsche? Or is the Panamera going to have some kind of ties with an unnamed Maserati?

...I seem to remember that it was an ongoing story in most American automotive magazines, then the story dissapeared. Audi was rumored to be dealing with Maserati on development of the Q7 and the Kubang, while Volkswagen would be benefiting from this by getting a new RWD model to split the difference between the Passat W8 and Phaeton V8.

 

[Tornado]

My only problem with Toyota as an engine supplier was that (besides the fact that the Rover K had more torque) it showed how oblivious Toyota can be. They could have put the Celica GT motor in the MR2 and had a $25,000 Elise (or an Elice minus 1/2 of the price). But they didn't. How sad.

 

[niky]

@ niky: I wouldn't be upset seeing a Boxster chassis powered by a VW 2.0T...

Precisely. And it would sell... one can only hope.

@Toro: Sorry, my mistake about the 944... I'd figured since the 924 was such a clunker... ...but seriously, it's a shame Porsche gave up on the line. Still, the 911 survived that crisis and it didn't. People didn't want them when prices got too high, but the 911 kept Porsche afloat through some very dark years. Now it's become their religion, and they're afraid to give it up.

Porsche became enamored of the FR thing with the 924 and 944, and development of the 911 suffered because of that. Now, with the 911 as close to perfection as possible, they're firmly resolved that the 911 will be their sportscar... period (thus, no 400hp Cayman... pity).

It'll be interesting to see how sales of Porsche's non-911 lines fare in the face of this current fuel-crisis. Cayennes don't seem to be doing so hot right now.

 

[YSSMAN]

Porsche MPG isn't that bad in comparison to most of the other cars they are up against. Granted, they are not in Corvette territory (capable of nearly 30 MPG on the highway), but they certainly aren't as bad as the Ferraris and Lamborghinis of the world.

 

[YSSMAN]

German antitrust authorities have given approval to Porsche's plan to increase its stake in Volkswagen to 25.1 percent. That will give the sports car maker a controlling minority share in VW. The plan was first announced late last month. Porsche began expanding its stake in Volkswagen late last year in an effort to prevent hostile takeovers from other factions. VW is a critical supplier to Porsche, and their partnership is expected to widen when production begins of the 2009 Panamera sedan. Government official Ulf Boege said there were no significant antitrust concerns about the deal, as there is no risk of Porsche and Volkswagen dominating the entire German car industry. Porsche currently holds a 21.2 percent stake in Volkswagen.

...Sweet, now lets get the Panamera production rolling so we can get a VW RWD car in the works!

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Other than the styling, there really aren't any similarities between the old & new beetles. For instance . . .

I mean the old Beetle, rear engine rear wheel drive. New one, front engine front wheel drive. Old Beetle,flat four. New Beetle, inline five. Old Beetle, air cooled. New Beetle, water cooled. Old Beetle, reliable. New one, not so much. Old Beetle ('79 convertible), 2060lbs. New Beetle ('05 convertible), 3,164lbs.

Now I mean alright, not all of the comparisons are that usefull, because for instance . . . safety, accounting for at least some of the 1100lbs gained in weight. And design differences for air/water cooled.

WOO TEH BUGZ0R DRIFTAR! VeeDub Beetle Drifter FTW!

Already there. Say perhaps HERE

 

[only_da_b3st]

hahaha one step closer to world DoMiNaTiOn!!!!!!!!

 

[Poverty]

^^ I like you

 

[Tornado]

Now I mean alright, not all of the comparisons are that usefull, because for instance . . . safety, accounting for at least some of the 1100lbs gained in weight.

Well, in a honesty, there are only 4 cars made before 1970 that I would truly feel safe in (funnily enough, 3 of them are rear engined). The Beetle was one of them. Airbags and stuff of that nature notwithstanding, the Type 38 was pretty much as safe as you could get at the time. The "single-piece" nature of the body makes it quite safe in things like rollovers, and the rear-mounted engine makes for plenty of front crumple room.

 

[STLbarcelona5]

Well, in a honesty, there are only 4 cars made before 1970 that I would truly feel safe in (funnily enough, 3 of them are rear engined). The Beetle was one of them. Airbags and stuff of that nature notwithstanding, the Type 38 was pretty much as safe as you could get at the time. The "single-piece" nature of the body makes it quite safe in things like rollovers, and the rear-mounted engine makes for plenty of front crumple room.

If only everyone understood why I feel safe in my Beetle like you would. It's funny, I was listening to Car Talk a few months back, and there was a father on it who was going on about how his wife said the car was unsafe & such. But what also mentioned, that when the car was a few years old, he rolled it over around four times, and walked away unharmed. Not bad for a 1977 Convertible.

And the whole front end crumple zone, completely agree. I just don't see why some people find it hard to rationalize that having air coming at you is less safe than an engine, regardless of the year the car is built. Funny though, that the Corvair which was bashed in Unsafe at Any Speed, it was rear engine. But that was the 60's American. Not my high-tech 1979 West German.

So I think the moral of the story, is that if you want to be safe. Get a Porsche 911. Or a big suv....

 

[GT4_Rule]

Well it's a pretty good deal I think. It won't really matter to me though.