Power vs. Weight & the PP-Formula

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by Z1-AV69, Jul 11, 2014.

  1. Z1-AV69

    Z1-AV69

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    If you tune a car for a specific PP-limit, you got the option to either go with more weight and more power or less of both. The PP-Formula should balance that out and at least if you compare different levels of power/weight for the same car, this worked quite well in the past. There were of course minor differences in performance depending on car and track, but generally the performance difference was very little at a given PP.

    The tradeoff was usually between higher topspeed (heavier and more powerful car) vs. shorter brake-distance and more nimbleness into the corners (lighter and less powerful car).


    From my recent observations with a McLaren MP4-12C this old balance, that worked well through GT5 and the first the patches of GT6, seems broken now. I don't know exactly since when because I didn't test everything for every patch..

    From the Ascari TT and following tests in online races (I chose the Red Bull Ring because I raced it a lot recently) I got the impression, less weight and less power is generally better now and by a lot. At Ascari I gained ~ 1sec just by going from stock weight to minimum weight and reducing power accordingly (setup otherwise just the same). At Red Bull Ring I gained 0,8 sec on my personal best (from 1.31,6 to 1.30,8; 550ss, online race with wear). Friends of mine (who discovered it before me, making me wonder how they got so quick suddenly) agree: low weight is the way to go now.


    Back in the day the tradeoff was balanced, so where is this unbalance coming from? So far I think the gain is mostly from accelerating out of traction limited slow corners. Back in the day there wasn't a difference here. The heavier and more powerful car had more power to bring down, but the more weight also gave better traction, canceling the disadvantage out. This seems no longer the case. In the lighter car you can now be on throttle much earlier and (at least at 550 sh/ss) don't have to worry much about throttle control. The difference seems especially noticeable if the rear (MR-car) has some lateral load out of the corner, so lateral forces and the longitudinal force of acceleration have to "fight" for the limited grip of the tyre. My guess is the recent physics tweaks changed something about how weight pushes the rear out laterally from movement momentum and at the same time increases the pressure on the tyre, giving more grip.

    So I think, as a reaction to the physics change, PD needs to change the PP-Formula, increasing the power per kg of weight slightly to get things in balance again.


    So what I'd like to know from you:

    1. Do you agree (for other cars as well) lower weight and lower power is quicker now at a given PP? And from what car are your conclusions?
    2. Do you agree it needs a fix at the PP-Formula (if the physics remain as they are now)?
     
  2. Motor City Hami

    Motor City Hami

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    1. I thought it has always been like this since the start of GT6. Lower the weight first, then add power.
    2. No. PD. Stop changing things and get to work on making GT7 better. Each change to GT6 does not seem to be much of an improvement (see camber theory thread).
     
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  3. Z1-AV69

    Z1-AV69

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    In previous patches (as said I'm not sure until when exactly) more weight had a benefit of better stability. At least until 1.04 I found more weight to be the better solution. But this also depends on whether you have to add power upgrades for the weight or just use less limiter. I would have reduced weight first before adding power upgrades too, but not if I had to use limiter at the higher weight already.

    I fully agree with you there are too many changes to the physics, each leading to unintended consequences like the one I think I found here. But since they did it, I want it to be complete and reasonable.
     
    Motor City Hami likes this.
  4. Damo The Don

    Damo The Don

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    Take my recent test pal

    Stock car/ SStyres/ do weight reduction 3 note how many pp it costs and do 10 laps record your fastest lap , go back and put the weight back in and this time spend the same ammount of pp points on power and re do 10 laps and see time differences .... Im 4 seconds faster with the weight reduction than the power , tested over a variety of type of cars (11cars) (Twin Ring Full)

    Weight wins every time =)

    Hope this helps

    Edit -
    Less weight helps in every aspect of the track braking distance , cornering , accel , small help of top speed before breaking due to less stress on the engine

    Power only helping you in the straights

    Thats my look on it at least
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
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  5. Z1-AV69

    Z1-AV69

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    Thanks for confirmation @Damo The Don!

    Don't you guys agree running a 550 car at like 410 bhp is no fun? Makes me want to do 600 sports soft..
     
  6. Damo The Don

    Damo The Don

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    No worries pal

    Well i see the average of my cars @550pp are around 480bhp , excluding the 580bhp monster 270r =)
    But i run on R tyres for anything @550 or over , 500pp and lower i find S tyres are more in the comfort zone

    Im one of these "want to know what the car can do to the .100 " kinda guys lol and for that i need R tyres ;)
     
  7. ImToLegitToQuit

    ImToLegitToQuit

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    what you might not have accounted for is the changes made to MR and RR cars in 1.09 too. the mclaren may just be faster by default because of this. I know the F430 scuderia got a lot faster. you would have to try the factory settings for the 1.08 car against the 1.09 car before attributing speed gains to the weight loss.

    In general though you always go for less weight because of the reasons you said, it help in all aspects. some tracks like Spa and le sarthe can be more beneficial for a more power/weight setup though.
     
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  8. Z1-AV69

    Z1-AV69

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    The advantage of very low weight was never that big though. Right now it's not only short straights and twisty tracks but pretty much everywhere. Which shouldn't be if the PP formula would do it's job.

    I also think it has to do with the changes to physics, as stated above. But I'm comparing times in this patch with a fitting setup. General speed gains have little to do with it, if anything I think heavier cars/tunes gained less or are even unchanged.