PP and aerodynamics

[BradKinder]

I already know that PP is figured by power/weight +downforce. Assuming you already know how to mod for a PP effectively... That's not even the most important factor.

Doing online races with PP/tire restrictions I've noticed that, no matter what mods you do... If you are in a boxy unaerodynamic car, there's nothing you can do against cars with a better aerodynamics. I'm not talking about downforce being turned on or off, but the innate aerodynamics of each vehicle.

For example, a CRX or an Elise will blow away anything in the 400-500PP range only because they've got a higher speed due to the better aerodynamic profile.

I just thought it was worth mentioning that you can size up a PP/tires regulated race by the aerodynamics of each car. If you want a fair race, you need to include cars that have similar aerodynamic limitations. Otherwise the PP/tires restriction doesn't even the field. There is no automatic way to limit cars that will pull away due to this advantage.

It has also occurred to me that since aerodynamic factors are such a large factor in GT5 races that any car entering an online lobby with regs needs all the aero mods available to win. Splitters, sideskirts, and all that. There's no visible figure figure shown for their effect, but aerodynamics play a large role in online races. These mods may make more of a difference than you might think.

 

[SavageEvil]

There aren't many boxy non aerodynamically proficient cars in GT5, the few are pretty slow to begin with anyway. Unless you are on a long straight the aerodynamics won't really bother you until you are really looking to hit peak speed, but that would be up to your gearing and the engine's output. Those cars you mentioned are awesome because of the PTW, they are lightweight and power output makes them pull pretty well. Same thing with the NSX and RX7, aero comes into play when you reach high speeds. Power to weight really is what matters for the most part of the race, find that sweet spot for your car using it's weight and power, then tune the gearing accordingly to take advantage of the powerband.

What cars are you trying to be competitive with? So many autos to use, you should try the Accord or something like that.

 

[Sohvakettu]

In my experience the overall balance of the car is more importan when talking about mid range road cars than the aero. Only at upper range cars does the aero start to play more important role.

Not saying that it's completely irrelevant though. Even a small advantage over the competition is important if you can take the car to the limit and keep it there. That said average driver online isn't really that sharp (me included ). Those that are tend to pull a gap on almost any car they drive.

 

[BradKinder]

There aren't many boxy non aerodynamically proficient cars in GT5, the few are pretty slow to begin with anyway. Unless you are on a long straight the aerodynamics won't really bother you until you are really looking to hit peak speed, but that would be up to your gearing and the engine's output. Those cars you mentioned are awesome because of the PTW, they are lightweight and power output makes them pull pretty well. Same thing with the NSX and RX7, aero comes into play when you reach high speeds. Power to weight really is what matters for the most part of the race, find that sweet spot for your car using it's weight and power, then tune the gearing accordingly to take advantage of the powerband.

What cars are you trying to be competitive with? So many autos to use, you should try the Accord or something like that.

Both the RX7 and NSX are very aerodynamic. You don't know what I'm talking about.

Try winning PP/tire restriction races with a S13 Silvia or AE86. Their suspension, power output, and ride height can be modded to perfection, yet their aerodynamics makes them unusable against more aerodynamic cars.

There are a lot of unaerodynamic cars in the game. But certain cars like CRXs and Elises cannot be matched due to their aerodynamic advantage. The effect is that of increased acceleration. As if they have a better power/weight ratio. But they don't. They just have less air resistance.

 

[BradKinder]

In my experience the overall balance of the car is more importan when talking about mid range road cars than the aero. Only at upper range cars does the aero start to play more important role.

Not saying that it's completely irrelevant though. Even a small advantage over the competition is important if you can take the car to the limit and keep it there. That said average driver online isn't really that sharp (me included ). Those that are tend to pull a gap on almost any car they drive.

You don't get it either. Aero cannot be compared to another setting. It's inherent to the car itself. It's the overall shape and size of the vehicle I'm talking about.

Cars that can match a regulation that also have an innate aerodynamic advantage will be leaps and bounds faster than any other car that tries to compete against them. And 'm talking about fully tweaked, tested, and practiced with modded cars.

 

[seanneedscar]

I'm inclined to believe, you dont know what youre talking about..

The Elise, is a touchy subject. No doubt it can dominate 450-500pp. But thats because of its innate lightness, also, that car is designed from the ground up to handle well

But, take it to, a high speed track. Whichever you prefer. Its going to LOSE. Why? its excessive lightness makes it have less HP than everyone else. And this has nothing to do with aerodynamics.

If you want to test this, I'll be happy to. THeres no way aerodynamics has anywhere near a close to impact on performance that power and weight does

 

[Sohvakettu]

But I don't think that Elise for example is really faster because it's producing less drag. I think it's faster because you can push it bit more inside the corners. This is because it's light and has a low center of gravity not because of a huge aero advantage. It might have some but not in the drag department I think (and i suspect that innate downforce is taken in to account in pp).

 

[jomama2010]

You don't get it either. Aero cannot be compared to another setting. It's inherent to the car itself. It's the overall shape and size of the vehicle I'm talking about.

Cars that can match a regulation that also have an innate aerodynamic advantage will be leaps and bounds faster than any other car that tries to compete against them. And 'm talking about fully tweaked, tested, and practiced with modded cars.

Aero most definitely can be compared to other settings

What I found to be the most important isn't the shape of the car but the balance of weight. Can your car roll into the corners well? The Lotus Elise is a perfect example because if you do weight redux and then add some to the front it becomes a track monster just because it has a great weight balance in the corners.

The higher the speed the better Aerodynamics help, but I found mid-range vehicles (435-500 odd some PP) That your balance of weight is more important...Aerodynamics is nice and all, but Suspension and Weight balance play more a role imo...

Good Tire balance in the corners is more important than the shape of the car or the aerodynamic settings. I don't know if you realize this brad but I when I do triathlons with you I rarely ever go max Aero on my car if I have the option...Even last week in the 600 pp Vintage Race Cars triathlon I haven't done full aero on my car.

 

[BradKinder]

I'm inclined to believe, you dont know what youre talking about..

The Elise, is a touchy subject. No doubt it can dominate 450-500pp. But thats because of its innate lightness, also, that car is designed from the ground up to handle well

But, take it to, a high speed track. Whichever you prefer. Its going to LOSE. Why? its excessive lightness makes it have less HP than everyone else. And this has nothing to do with aerodynamics.

If you want to test this, I'll be happy to. THeres no way aerodynamics has anywhere near a close to impact on performance that power and weight does

Power to weight is no different than a PP figure. And highly banked courses like HSR are silly. Do more driving courses that have decently designed roads like Suzuka.

 

[BradKinder]

But I don't think that Elise for example is really faster because it's producing less drag. I think it's faster because you can push it bit more inside the corners. This is because it's light and has a low center of gravity not because of a huge aero advantage. It might have some but not in the drag department I think (and i suspect that innate downforce is taken in to account in pp).

I find that I can keep up with people in corners but small, low to the ground, and smoothly aerodynamic cars just go faster down the straights.

 

[jomama2010]

Power to weight is no different than a PP figure. And highly banked courses like HSR are silly. Do more driving courses that have decently designed roads like Suzuka.

Brad...you are lucky there is no facepalm emote.

All courses count.....Yes even Daytona even though I knock on it.

 

[jomama2010]

I find that I can keep up with people in corners but small, low to the ground, and smoothly aerodynamic cars just go faster down the straights.

And what is your example?

 

[BradKinder]

Aero most definitely can be compared to other settings

What I found to be the most important isn't the shape of the car but the balance of weight. Can your car roll into the corners well? The Lotus Elise is a perfect example because if you do weight redux and then add some to the front it becomes a track monster just because it has a great weight balance in the corners.

The higher the speed the better Aerodynamics help, but I found mid-range vehicles (435-500 odd some PP) That your balance of weight is more important...Aerodynamics is nice and all, but Suspension and Weight balance play more a role imo...

Good Tire balance in the corners is more important than the shape of the car or the aerodynamic settings. I don't know if you realize this brad but I when I do triathlons with you I rarely ever go max Aero on my car if I have the option...Even last week in the 600 pp Vintage Race Cars triathlon I haven't done full aero on my car.

You need to try more cars in the game. I'm not talking about enduros, but in sprint races (PP/tires regulated around 10-15 minutes long) with many cars, fully modified, lowered, and tweaked... the smallest and most aerodynamic cars just have an acceleration advantage. I'm talking about cars with total downforce values around 0-20. 0-20 downforce isn't a big deal. For any courses that aren't SSR7. Slipstream set to weak.

Managing your balance and pace works great in faster cars, but in slower road cars... It's very easy to drive fast laps without thinking at all about your tire game. Sprint races are dominated by cars that small and slippery by design. Cars that just have nice lines, but are not aerodynamic, have no chance at all winning a short PP regulation race.

 

[jomama2010]

You need to try more cars in the game. I'm not talking about enduros, but in sprint races (PP/tires regulated around 10-15 minutes long) with many cars, fully modified, lowered, and tweaked... the smallest and most aerodynamic cars just have an acceleration advantage. I'm talking about cars with total downforce values around 0-20. 0-20 downforce isn't a big deal. For any courses that aren't SSR7. Slipstream set to weak.

Managing your balance and pace works great in faster cars, but in slower road cars... It's very easy to drive fast laps without thinking at all about your tire game. Sprint races are dominated by cars that small and slippery by design. Cars that just have nice lines, but are not aerodynamic, have no chance at all winning a short PP regulation race.

Managing weight distrubution and balance is everything in the slower game...because that is where most "unaerodynamic cars" are found

 

[Sohvakettu]

The acceleration advantage Elise might have is caused by it's superior cornering. Also being very light helps.

When analyzing pp system all tracks have to be taken in to account. It's been designed to make the cars statistically equal over all the tracks so Elise being faster on tracks with lots of cornering and slower in top speed tracks means that in principle the pp system is working as intended. Now does GT5 have more cornering heavy tracks than top speed heavy tracks, thats a story for another thread.

 

[BradKinder]

What I'm really trying to say is that down a straight, the game doesn't only figure in power, weight, and grip utilization.

A car's acceleration is also determined, at a racing pace, by it's shape/design in GT5.

Please remember that downforce isn't different from car to car. X total downforce on one car means the same as x total downforce on another. It's not really relevant in a competition where each driver and car has experimented and found the fastest settings for their race.

In close racing, you expect to be able to tail somebody you're directly behind easily due to drafting. However, cars of a more aerodynamic design are able to accelerate faster than the drafter if the drafter is in an unaerodynamically designed vehicle. This isn't about exit speeds or power delivery. It's just that some cars have an aerodynamic advantage that isn't mentioned by stats, manuals, or figures visible in the game.

Just wanted to tell ppl to keep that in mind when playing online! Don't get too frustrated when a smaller car is able to out accelerate you even though regulations are matched, and your car is tuned well. The aerodynamic advantages and disadvantages are not taken into account with any currently available regulations.

 

[jomama2010]

What I'm really trying to say is that down a straight, the game doesn't only figure in power, weight, and grip utilization.

A car's acceleration is also determined, at a racing pace, by it's shape/design in GT5.

Please remember that downforce isn't different from car to car. X total downforce on one car means the same as x total downforce on another. It's not really relevant in a competition where each driver and car has experimented and found the fastest settings for their race.

In close racing, you expect to be able to tail somebody you're directly behind easily due to drafting. However, cars of a more aerodynamic design are able to accelerate faster than the drafter if the drafter is in an unaerodynamically designed vehicle. This isn't about exit speeds or power delivery. It's just that some cars have an aerodynamic advantage that isn't mentioned by stats, manuals, or figures visible in the game.

Just wanted to tell ppl to keep that in mind when playing online! Don't get too frustrated when a smaller car is able to out accelerate you even though regulations are matched, and your car is tuned well. The aerodynamic advantages and disadvantages are not taken into account with any currently available regulations.

That is because they drafted off of you...which is basically on or off.

I haven't met a car that I can't draft...Yes you are able to draft an Alpine with a Chevelle quite easily and vise versa.

edit...misread paragraph...retype comeback argument lol. I'm sorry but most cars due to PP restrictions get the extra power to out run little "cool designed" cars on a straight quite handily. Do you really see a 200 HP Elise out running a 350HP diesel mercedes sedan because the diesel isn't drafting?

Also you may or may not of taken into account torque. More torque you have more low end acceleration you gain...More HP you have the better top speed you get. A large part in why cars like the Subaru can "bolt" out of corners with a mediocre line and cars like the S2000 need a clean line to do so.

Which is also the reason for tuning your transmission properly not just to see when it red lines, but that is for another thread

 

[Exorcet]

There is a problem with your theory, we don't know the aerodynamic qualities of any of the cars. You can assume that they are like real life (and by that I mean don't make up a number just by looking at the cars, but by looking up their CD*A), but there's no guarantee that it's correct in game.

The fact that CD*A vs power was not mentioned leaves me thinking that this theory was not proven thoroughly enough. A boxy car that's smaller than a larger more aerodynamic car can easily be faster. And a big boxy, heavy car can easily be faster than a small aerodynamic light car with less hp.