PP or HP Restrictions at This Point?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bye Ya
  • 59 comments
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PP System at This Point in Time or the Old System?

  • PP System

    Votes: 76 67.9%

  • HP/kg System

    Votes: 36 32.1%
  • Total voters
    112
Bye Ya

Bye Ya

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Bye_Ya
Serious question, because I had an experience where raced in one room for quite a while tonight, and eventually I was the next in line to host the room. When I got my chance I made some changes that one guy got quite angry over, basically that I thought Enzo's and Super GT's racing alongside GT-R's and Impreza's, etc. was getting old and I wanted to mix it up. So I changed the room from a 550PP restriction to a 470HP and 1150 min/kg restriction (around there) so that similarly designed cars would be racing each other.



The way I see it, I get the PP thing. It allows the opportunity to race some cars against the more popular ones that you might not normally get to use very often otherwise.

But the PP thing also changes the dynamic of what makes something a good car for certain tracks, and since I'm quite sure this has been drilled to death here already, I just wanted to ask:


At this point in the game's lifespan do you prefer the PP restriction system to the HP/Weight restriction system?
 
A properly designed PP system would be the best. It seems like there's not a whole lot of diff between the two, but you still get some rides which have a magic something that make the hp/kg limits quite uneven. Currently, it looks like the poll is going the PP way too, which is how I voted.

Let's keep asking for PP tweaking.
 
PP. Keep in mind that BHP and Weight restrictions don't take in how much downforce a car can have.
 
Tenacious D
A properly designed PP system would be the best. It seems like there's not a whole lot of diff between the two, but you still get some rides which have a magic something that make the hp/kg limits quite uneven. Currently, it looks like the poll is going the PP way too, which is how I voted.

Let's keep asking for PP tweaking.
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Yup, there's still too much of a connection between the two.
 
The HP/KG system is no different than the PP system. However, the HP/KG system can be inaccurate at times. For example, assume model A is a year younger than model B (both is same make & model), but has exact same HP/KG. On the other hand, model B has aerodynamic parts installed such as spoilers, thus giving model B downforce & lesser drag, while model A doesn't & suffers from drag. Since the HP/KG system doesn't take this into account, it'll make it a bit inaccurate compared to the PP system -- if PP does factor in aerodynamics.

The PP system is also superior over the HP/KG system for the reasons Toronado posted. But the PP system could be improved a bit more to either add in more variations or improve existing factors, for instance PP factoring in Tire selection or improving/adding torque curve variations.
 
elitedriver123
The PP system is also superior over the HP/KG system for the reasons Toronado posted. But the PP system could be improved a bit more to either add in more variations or improve existing factors, for instance PP factoring in Tire selection or improving/adding torque curve variations.
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I remember that pp used to have tyre composition taken into account:dunce:

In most cases, the one with the downforce advantage is going to win in a HP/KG type race. The only exception being oval/long straight tracks (Daytona/La Sarthe)
 
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I voted for PP, but I found cars with 350PP faster than 430PP models.

I managed to find a better algorythm for evaluating car performance, but only PD have access to chassis parameters. I can't go much further, but they can.
 
PP taking tires into account adds nothing now that tires can be limited separately from PP, and all it really did when it was taken into account is act as a loophole.
 
Toronado
PP taking tires into account adds nothing now that tires can be limited separately from PP, and all it really did when it was taken into account is act as a loophole.
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Agreed 100%. When I took a break from GT5 it was just before they introduced the PP system. When i came back to the game, especially after playing F1 for a long time (tires are a BIG deal), I was completely shocked that they didn't figure tire types into the PP evaluations. That's an incompetent move, imo. Especially when you consider that half of these street cars just don't run racing softs anyway, and that the racing softs are incredibly more effective than the racing hard tires.
 
The best thing to do is a PP restriction, then have cars that are known to be slower at a certain PP to be on softer tires than everyone else.
 
Me and some friends run a 500pp room every wednesday and we don't allow race cars/race mods/ crazy tuner cars and this keeps things pretty open. I have atleast 4 different cars that are capable of winning every race assuming I don't let the car down.
In the end pp works decently for what was probably more of an afterthought in production. It needs work, Forza PI system is still more even in my opinion
 
I prefer PP.

Works great most of the time, especially if you keep the cars in about the same years and same "class" of cars.
Not so good if you want to race 80s cars and the others can drive 2010 cars. New roadcars are generally better at same PP compared to old ones.
But if you were using HP/weight you would still have the same problem. Old cars would generally need much for HP to compensate for lack of grip.

Main reason for not using HP/weight is because of engine tuning and downforce.
If all players use normal roadcars then downforce is no issue. Otherwise it could be a big issue.
But the cars that have "downtuned/torque tuned" engines with tons of torque and peak HP over the used RPM range will be superior in most HP/weight limited rooms
I usually avoid rooms with HP/weight restrictions because of that.

When having 1000+ cars, finding a decent car for the right HP and weight is harder compared to finding the right PP car.

My 100 favourites are sorted for "PP races".. Mostly normal roadcars between 400-600pp. Then I always have many cars to choose between without fiddling around with HP/weight all the time.

It just easier and better with PP restrictions in my opinion..
Altough, in some cases HP/weight races can be very fun if you have some pretuned cars for the occasion..
 
TSracing
I prefer PP.

Works great most of the time, especially if you keep the cars in about the same years and same "class" of cars.
Not so good if you want to race 80s cars and the others can drive 2010 cars. New roadcars are generally better at same PP compared to old ones.
But if you were using HP/weight you would still have the same problem. Old cars would generally need much for HP to compensate for lack of grip.

Main reason for not using HP/weight is because of engine tuning and downforce.
If all players use normal roadcars then downforce is no issue. Otherwise it could be a big issue.
But the cars that have "downtuned/torque tuned" engines with tons of torque and peak HP over the used RPM range will be superior in most HP/weight limited rooms
I usually avoid rooms with HP/weight restrictions because of that.

When having 1000+ cars, finding a decent car for the right HP and weight is harder compared to finding the right PP car.

My 100 favourites are sorted for "PP races".. Mostly normal roadcars between 400-600pp. Then I always have many cars to choose between without fiddling around with HP/weight all the time.

It just easier and better with PP restrictions in my opinion..
Altough, in some cases HP/weight races can be very fun if you have some pretuned cars for the occasion..
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So down-tuning to meet a PP is inefficient, assuming you can meet the PP requirments with minimal tune and optimize gearing for peak torque/power/track?

If I have a basically stock Ferrari 458 at 575 PP and a fully modded down-tuned 458 which will be faster?
 
Either by tires size or by track width, PP does take mechanical grip into account. When you see cars of similar specs but still see a significant difference in PP, mechanical grip is the cause.

The best way to demonstrate that is with an older car matched up against a newer one because older cars tend to have skinny tires.
Furai : 448hp, 302 lb-ft, 792kg, 45/55% weight distribution, 15/20 wing= 602pp
330P4:448hp, 386 lb-ft, 792kg, 45/55% weight distribution, 15/20 wing= 594pp
So despite having a superior power band(peak torque reached at 5500rpm vs. 7800 for the Furai) and more torque overall, the Ferrari still has less PP than the Furai.
In practice, the difference is obvious as the Furai definitely has more grip, especially at the front end.

I noticed this a long time ago when racing in the low 500pp ranges. My FT-86 concept, despite being a rocket in a straight line and very light, would still get dusted especially in the corners by cars that were hundreds of kilos heavier.
 
None of the tire options in the game are "real" they are just options. As some cars at a PP limit are just plain slower on nearly any track, you just have to put them on softer tires than every one else. Tire selection is visible to everyone in the game.

Many high-performance cars just have better weight and mass distributions that have nothing to do with power or weight. Since there are no downforce regulation options, we resort to PP.

I hope that future GT5 upgrades will allow the host of a lobby to inspect every aspect of the competitors' cars. That way we could do more lightly-modded-cars races, and people could experience more true-to-life races in their favorite production cars.

The best way to compete, though, is to have no game-set regs. The fastest qualifying car sets the lap time others must tune up to. But that's kinda tedious for random play.
 
I really, really wish we could do Power/Weight and PP. We could practically make a spec series just with that, and it would to an extent eliminate the problems caused by excessive engine down tuning without forcing the power limiter to be gimped.
 
If you're de tuning the engine enough that the power is plateued more than 1/5-2/5s of your RPMs, you're using the wrong car.

PP is already a nearly perfect way to measure power/weight and downforce.
 
Toronado
I really, really wish we could do Power/Weight and PP. We could practically make a spec series just with that, and it would to an extent eliminate the problems caused by excessive engine down tuning without forcing the power limiter to be gimped.
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Agreed. It's beyond me why PD separated them. When I heard about the PP update, I fully expected to be able to set both at the same time.

If people still used the Feedback section, I would put this idea up.
 
Power limiter the way it's implemented, (<-- funny how that word always comes up) shouldn't bother existing imo.
I can't vote because both suck, because of the way power limiter was implemented. If it just lowered the power without changing the powerband to a flatline, it would work just fine.
Oh, and not being able to pick exact hp amounts? A serious wtf PD. 👎

I agree with Tornado, given the already poorly implemented things (assuming no changes for Spec II) BOTH is the correct option here.
Options never hurt, so long as you can enforce them off. ;)
 
I voted PP system, but it does need a lot of work. For example: all race cars need to be up much higher on the scale. Tires need to be included in the PP system again, the same for transmissions and drivetrain parts. Also I think that it should evolve into a class system that is completely intergrated into the game. With the way it is now there isn't enough structure, so it ends up taking way too long to fill a lobby or find like minded racers. A person should be able to put his disk in and easily find a lobby, I shouldn't have to come on a website (GTP) and hope to find like minded racers just for a night of racing. Way too much work and a complete joke.
 
zero_speed
Tires need to be included in the PP system again, the same for transmissions and drivetrain parts.
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Transmissions cannot be included in PP by their inherent subjectivity, and there is no real reason to put tires back into the calculations now that you can limit them separately.
 
zero_speed
I voted PP system, but it does need a lot of work. For example: all race cars need to be up much higher on the scale.
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Agreed. There should also be an option whether you'd like to exclude racing cars as some are in the same PP category as many road cars, yet way faster.
 
I think you should be able to set restrictions on everything that influences a car's performance. From what we see, PP-restrictions alone lets people compete with downtuned race-cars in street legal races.

You should be able to restrict PP, power, weight and also, and in my opinion more importantly, the use power restrictors (at least up to a certain percentage) and ballast.

Selecting certain cars one by one should also be possible.
 
Toronado
Transmissions cannot be included in PP by their inherent subjectivity
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They should just be able to account for the adjustability of the racing transmission, ie maybe a plain + 2 PP for all cars using it. Same for suspension.

A more complicated way to factor in transmission performance would be to compare the engine powerband to the RPM spread for each gear, and theoretical transmission top speed to power and drag. But I don't see that happening because it sounds complicated.
 

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