Preferred Riding Form

  • Thread starter Thread starter dcv3r
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I would like to open a thread about preferred riding forms.
It seems to me that that is where I am going to cut the
most time off my lap, no? aside from the line that is.

As of right now I have a pretty aggresive low and in stance
at Trial Mtn which is where I do most of my time attacks.
Currently however I am trying a mid stance to see if this
helps me become more stable through the turns..

And just so it helps, I do not ride bikes in real life as of yet..
$$ :indiff:

SO.. State the track and preferred form you use and hopefully
this can help more people than just me. Also it might help to
know what class of bike your riding.. I use this stance on all
bikes so far..
 
I just set body lean and left it. I think spectre could come in here with some specific advice, or you could read the general questions thread where he has advice on the third page.
 
I use the lean body, because if you lean your body the bike will follow you. Except when I ride the dirt bike (dual purpose) I'll ride em Motard style.
 
=-)

In real life, the 'correct' form for track-duty is the 'body lean' style. This maximises your cornering clearance. That means, if you go the same speed around the same corner using the 'body lean' style instead of the 'neutral' style, you can keep the bike more upright. When the bike is more upright, more of that wonderfull sticky rubber is in contact with the road, which means you can accellerate harder out of the turn. It also means, that you can turn slightly harder than a 'neutral' style.

In TT, the disadvantage (AFAIK) of using the 'body lean' style, is it takes longer to lean the bike. The goal (at least in real world racing) is to flick the bike over to the desired lean angle as fast as possible without upsetting the chassis.

Without getting too into it, I prefer the 'body lean' style for most evry track in TT. On a track with tight esses and chicanes, the neutral style will benifit because you can change directions so much faster.

As far as Trail Mountain (one of my *favorate* tracks), its medium speed track. Its got about 60% fairly tight track, and 40% wide open and sweepers.
Its also fairly bumpy. I would probably lean towards the neutral style on this one. Im not sure if the neutral style affects stability in TT, but i know for a fact there are 1 or 2 sections that you can fall on if you try for full lean. In real life, the body lean method would still help here, as the more vertical the bike is through a turn, the better the suspension can react to the surface of the road. I dont know enough about the physics in TT to say that it works the same way.

Trail Mountain isnt full of long full lean turns like midfield for example. So the body lean style will probably not benifit as much here. And if you find that the Neutral style makes the bike more stable.. well, there is your answer.

You just need to plan your turns a little bit differently. Try and slow down slightly sooner, get the bike pointed, and keep it as vertical as possbile and accellerate through the apex. You wont have the added advantage of more cornering clearance, so you have to plan accordingly.

Hope this helps!
 
Thanks for the run down 👍! If I haven't already giving you rep for the 'twist of the wrist' post, you'd definatly get it for this post. Thanks for shedding some light on our other wise dark veiws of motorcyling.
 
I dig reverse cowgirl.


Whooaaaa, sorrrrrrry. Wrong thread.
 
BlazinXtreme
Thanks for the run down 👍! If I haven't already giving you rep for the 'twist of the wrist' post, you'd definatly get it for this post. Thanks for shedding some light on our other wise dark veiws of motorcyling.

My pleasure. For me, learning about the ins and outs of motorcycling is a big part of the appeal. Im happy I found a place where people will listen to my lectures without falling asleep ;)

Anytime!
 
Spectre600
My pleasure. For me, learning about the ins and outs of motorcycling is a big part of the appeal. Im happy I found a place where people will listen to my lectures without falling asleep ;)

Anytime!


Well since I'm very interested in getting a bike for myself, I want to learn all I can. Plus you can never know enough about anything.
 
BlazinXtreme
Well since I'm very interested in getting a bike for myself, I want to learn all I can. Plus you can never know enough about anything.

Very true. One of the facinating things about motorcycling is the more you learn, the more doors it opens.. Evry new tidbit you discover presents 10 more questions to answer.

I love it.

Take the MSF course if you want to ride.
www.msf-usa.org

Evryone i know who has not taken the course crashed soon after they started.
 
I started with the neutral form but have switched to the body lean form over the past few days and prefer that. The bike does take a bit longer to roll and it is not as responsive through some of the chicanes, but I prefer the form for the most part because the bike seems to "hook up" better going through the corners. So far I've set my fastest times with this forms, so I guess it works well enough for me.
 
Right now I'm using bike lean. Body lean seems too slow on weight shifts and I like fast corner entry ... but then again I'm only doing the challenges now so I really don't have time to get familiar with any bike too much. I'm sure once I start getting used to certain bikes, I'll gradually move over to body lean ... the lack of exit speed with bike lean is very noticeable.
 
slo-car
Right now I'm using bike lean. Body lean seems too slow on weight shifts and I like fast corner entry ... but then again I'm only doing the challenges now so I really don't have time to get familiar with any bike too much. I'm sure once I start getting used to certain bikes, I'll gradually move over to body lean ... the lack of exit speed with bike lean is very noticeable.

A well timed squeeze of the brakes, or rolling of the throttle at the same time that you transition makes the bike flick from side to side even using the body lean style.
 
haHA! good posts. very helpful and i'm glad i'm not the only one
who isn't 100% on how the physics in TT are working. I'm really
curious how it will feel to go back to gt4 now, but I can't take
this disc out of my ps2 for another few weeks atleast.

Spectre, I know what you mean about a few turns at Trial Mtn
being easy to lay the bike down, Specifically turn 3 for me because
I have always set up as wide as possible so I can cut through that
turn and keep my speed maxed fror the long uphill. :trouble: I tend to dart
in and lay the bike down if I'm not careful, that's why I was tryin the
Neutral Form. Hoewever, in all honesty, it doesn't seem to make
that big of a difference so I think I will go back to body lean and
just learn to feather the throttle and go easy on my weight shift
through there.

I think your right though. Now that I'm thinking about it, I have
been concentrating far too much on the line and not enough on
maintaining grip, I guess that's most important so you are able to
take advantage of the quick acceleration of a bike asap.

Now if I could only break my 1'37.500 barrier at TM. But God I love
a challenge again. :scared: 💡
 
I *think* know the turn you are talking about, the idea in a turn like that (with a severe dip in the middle) is to be vertical past the apex. Slow down early, point straight across it, and just nail it. With the bike vertical, you can accellerate as hard as you want, and the terrain wont effect you much. Much easier than trying to manage traction over that type of terrain.

It kinda sounds like you are talking about turn 1 tho.. has a big uphill afterwards. Im not sure. Let me know and we'll try to get you through it (reletively) unscathed ;)

The turn I was thinking of was right after the tunnel. Its deceptive. You are coming in very fast and feel like you need full lean. If you go over that last section at full lean, you will either fall, or destabilize the bike. This is bad because the next turn is onto the huge back straight.

Good luck!
 
Spectre600
The turn I was thinking of was right after the tunnel. Its deceptive. You are coming in very fast and feel like you need full lean. If you go over that last section at full lean, you will either fall, or destabilize the bike. This is bad because the next turn is onto the huge back straight.

Good luck!
The turn after the tunnel on Deep Forest is like that as well ... unless you slow down or ride straight to the other side of the track, you are probably in for a bad fall. Happened to me multiple times.
 
BlazinXtreme
I use the lean body, because if you lean your body the bike will follow you. Except when I ride the dirt bike (dual purpose) I'll ride em Motard style.
I think the styles are misnamed. I think they really mean . . .
  • lean bike - lean body less than bike (i.e., relative to bike, lean body in opposite of turn direction)
  • neutral - lean body the same as the bike (i.e. don't lean relative to bike)
  • lean body - lean body more than bike (i.e. yes, relative to bike, lean body in turn direction)
But my point is that in all cases, the physics model must lean the bike for you when you push the stick. Just shifting your weight isn't going to turn the bike fast enough. Which still, of course, amounts to a vote for "lean body", except for the caveat that the model slows the speed of recovery from such turns (perhaps also the speed of initiation).

Each basic style represents a lot of minute parameters which you can fiddle with. And I think the primary parameter for "leaning" is the one which governs how much into the turn (right or left) you move your seat position. But also related are shoulder movements (shift and yaw (tilt)). IIRC, neutral isn't 100% "neutral", in that your seat position does shift inward, but less than for "lean body".

Is it only in "standard" mode that the game seems to know which way the next turn is, and "presets" the rider soon after you start braking? (Shifts seat position, but counters the weight distribution somehow, ready to drop into the corner later). I can't figure any input I'm actually giving it to say "hang right" or "hang left".

A place this visibly happens is Motegi East, turn 1.
 
Evryone i know who has not taken the course crashed soon after they started.

Hi, my name is shawn. You now know of atleast one person who has been riding since the age of 4 who has never taken that course, nor crashed on the street.

The dirt, now, that is a different story.

Not trying to take away from the need of such a course, only to point out that there are those out there who have learned to ride safely, and, not everyone who doesn't take this course crashes.

Just for reference, I've racked up about 16,000 miles on the street in the last 2 years.

Without having ever taken this course I can tell you the most dangerous thing on the road for a biker is 4 or more wheeled vehicles, and, other riders.
 
megashawn
Hi, my name is shawn. You now know of atleast one person who has been riding since the age of 4 who has never taken that course, nor crashed on the street.

The dirt, now, that is a different story.

Not trying to take away from the need of such a course, only to point out that there are those out there who have learned to ride safely, and, not everyone who doesn't take this course crashes.

Just for reference, I've racked up about 16,000 miles on the street in the last 2 years.

Without having ever taken this course I can tell you the most dangerous thing on the road for a biker is 4 or more wheeled vehicles, and, other riders.

Your right, the biggest danger is cars. The course teaches you how to deal with them effectively, amung other things.

My experience still holds true. Evryone *I know* that did not take the course crashed very quickly.

You *should* take the course.

There were many people at the course who had been riding for YEARS and still learned alot.

Many states issue motorcycle licences using the MSF course.

Its statistically prooven that a person who has taken the MSF course is more prepared to deal with problems on the street, may they be cars, or a stray 2x4 that landed in your path.

The best thing you can do if you ride or if you plan on riding is taking the MSF course. Dont try and convince people otherwise.

That was a clever introduction btw, although the MSF course I was reffering to was for street riding, not dirt riding. Have you been riding streetbikes scince you were 4?
 
No, I haven't been riding street bikes since the age of 4. I kinda figured that was obvious, but no. However, I've learned alot from dirt riding. Presently I ride a drz 400 s. Its street legal, and I've put atleast 16,000 miles on it on the street. Before that I rode a Yamaha Virago 900 something, 926 I think.

I've had numerous dirt bikes through the years though, and I've ridden them on the street. I have never, ever wrecked a bike on pavement.

Now, I have a couple questions about this msf course that I couldn't find satisfactory answers to on the site. A couple what if scenarios I'd like you to answer, scenarios that have actually happened to me.

1. You are traveling on a 2 lane interstate, bumper to bumper traffic, in the fast lane, concrete walls to your left, solid traffic in front and behind, at 45 mph. THe old woman in the minivan to your right talking on a cell phone starts to merge over into your area as if she does not see you. The honking of your horn is useless, there is no way to accelerate, due to heavy traffic, and likewise breaking is not an option. What do you do to avoid certain death?

2. You are traveling down a 2 lane country road at 60 mph. As you aproach a right hand corner, you notice a vehicle coming in the oncoming lane, and a second vehicle traveling about 100 mph passing this vehicle coming head on at you. There is no time to break, and no spare lane to move into. The side of the road is about 1.5 ft wide of grass, and then drops down a 6ft embankment. What do you do?

As I mentioned, I was in both of these situations. I have never been instructed as to how to handle such scenarios, have you? I promise 9/10 people faced with such problems would die, or have been seriously injured, MSF or not.

Also, I know people who have taken these safety classes, and still ended up wrecking. I also know several people who have ridden dirt bikes through most of there life and switch to street, and, have never had a problem.

When you've rode through stuff like this;
attachment.php

there is little a class can teach you.

Now, if you haven't ridden, and are looking to get into riding on the street, you certainly should take a course on bike safety, and, I would go a step further and recomend spending some time on a dirt bike. Learning to ride in mud, up and down mountains, through creeks, rivers, sand, over logs, sliding, stoping, jumping, etc, are all very important aspects to bike control. Of course, not everyone will do this, so, atleast get the class.

Also, something else worth mention and I will not hijack anything further. Most "Professional bike racers" will not ride on the street. There are to many unknown variables they are not prepared for. On the track, its nothing but corner entry speed, exit speed, braking, acclerating, and watching out for other racers. On the street, its all this and watching out for idiots on cell phones putting makeup on.

I ride over logs about 2 ft in diameter, a 2x4 is a bump in the road.
 

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megashawn
No, I haven't been riding street bikes since the age of 4. I kinda figured that was obvious, but no. However, I've learned alot from dirt riding. Presently I ride a drz 400 s. Its street legal, and I've put atleast 16,000 miles on it on the street. Before that I rode a Yamaha Virago 900 something, 926 I think.

I've had numerous dirt bikes through the years though, and I've ridden them on the street. I have never, ever wrecked a bike on pavement.

Now, I have a couple questions about this msf course that I couldn't find satisfactory answers to on the site. A couple what if scenarios I'd like you to answer, scenarios that have actually happened to me.

1. You are traveling on a 2 lane interstate, bumper to bumper traffic, in the fast lane, concrete walls to your left, solid traffic in front and behind, at 45 mph. THe old woman in the minivan to your right talking on a cell phone starts to merge over into your area as if she does not see you. The honking of your horn is useless, there is no way to accelerate, due to heavy traffic, and likewise breaking is not an option. What do you do to avoid certain death?

2. You are traveling down a 2 lane country road at 60 mph. As you aproach a right hand corner, you notice a vehicle coming in the oncoming lane, and a second vehicle traveling about 100 mph passing this vehicle coming head on at you. There is no time to break, and no spare lane to move into. The side of the road is about 1.5 ft wide of grass, and then drops down a 6ft embankment. What do you do?

As I mentioned, I was in both of these situations. I have never been instructed as to how to handle such scenarios, have you? I promise 9/10 people faced with such problems would die, or have been seriously injured, MSF or not.

Also, I know people who have taken these safety classes, and still ended up wrecking. I also know several people who have ridden dirt bikes through most of there life and switch to street, and, have never had a problem.

When you've rode through stuff like this;
attachment.php

there is little a class can teach you.

Now, if you haven't ridden, and are looking to get into riding on the street, you certainly should take a course on bike safety, and, I would go a step further and recomend spending some time on a dirt bike. Learning to ride in mud, up and down mountains, through creeks, rivers, sand, over logs, sliding, stoping, jumping, etc, are all very important aspects to bike control. Of course, not everyone will do this, so, atleast get the class.

Also, something else worth mention and I will not hijack anything further. Most "Professional bike racers" will not ride on the street. There are to many unknown variables they are not prepared for. On the track, its nothing but corner entry speed, exit speed, braking, acclerating, and watching out for other racers. On the street, its all this and watching out for idiots on cell phones putting makeup on.

I ride over logs about 2 ft in diameter, a 2x4 is a bump in the road.

That's good....what is this thread about again?...OH YEAH RIDER FORM Let's keep it there....I use a custom setup look at my drift form thread somewhere on this forum for the details....

BTW TAKE THE COURSE....All it can do is teach you....
 
megashawn
1. You are traveling on a 2 lane interstate, bumper to bumper traffic, in the fast lane, concrete walls to your left, solid traffic in front and behind, at 45 mph. THe old woman in the minivan to your right talking on a cell phone starts to merge over into your area as if she does not see you. The honking of your horn is useless, there is no way to accelerate, due to heavy traffic, and likewise breaking is not an option. What do you do to avoid certain death?
You kick in her door panel, take her mirror off, or smash her window. Or any combination of the 3. 👍
 
I have replied to Megashawns post in a seperate thread "Megashawn and the MSF"

Lets get back on topic. Maybe the mods can split this thread and and put the irrelevant stuff somewhere else.
 
Yeah, what a bummer to have my thread mucked up.. thanks megashawn.
hehe im kidding, it tends to happen.

well, maybe I can kick start this thing again. After practicing over and
over with the 999R on trial mtn, and getting really frustrated, I decided
to stay away from it for a while and try out some more bikes(the tz250
and some other 600cc race bikes to be exact.) I will say this, I have
found in my case that a mid stance has proven to be really good for
learning a track and bike and not having to deal with so many lowsides,
cause you know I keep the gas gunned whenever possible. :trouble:

Also I have learned to ease off the tuck a LOT. This as Spectre and
others I'm sure have pointed out, has really helped me stay on line and
not run so wide. :cool: Also I have drastically improved my braking
technique. I learned to use the front brake around 80% of the time, and
I usually tap the rear brake when I really need to lose some speed, but
unless I screwed up and am about to run out of track, I only use the
front brake to lead me into the turn. I will suggest that anyone who
doesn't agree with this, go read the 2 threads on the tz250 challenge and
try it for yourself. 👍 I have to admit, I really underestimated the
smaller displcmnt. bikes, but am very glad I gave them a chance, they
taught me a lot about weight shifts and overall stability.

Now after taking a few days off from my bike and my track (999r; TM)
when I was struggling to knock off a tenth of a second, on my second
lap tonight, I smashed it by roughly 1.75secs. :eek: :trouble:
you gotta love PD. Well, I've always been one to take it slow so I am
still not ready to go back to my more aggresive stance, but when I feel
I completely understand this mid stance, I will, and I will report back
for anyone interested. THANKS GUYS.

any other advice, please feel free to keep the thread rolling and it WOULD
be nice if the mods could weed out a few posts to tighten this thing up. ;)
 

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