Pride

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milefile

milefile

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Spun off from danoff's thread in the Rumble Strip...

What is pride? How is it that people can claim pride over something that they simultaneously insist is not a choice?

Is it at all reasonable to be proud of something that required absolutely no effort on your part?
 
Exactly... for example, being proud of his nationality is absurd at some point, you're just born in this country, there is absolutely no merit for this. You may be glad to live there, but proud? of what? For me pride is related to something I accomplished, or that I've participated in, not taking credit in someone else actions...

It's like trying to impress others saying that you've been in high school with someone famous... really impressive.
 
9/11 showed it but I still dont get it, yea im happy to live in the US and have all the stuff i have and not have to live crappily in some 3rd world country. But still ..... well I dont know what im talking about so ill just shut up
 
Originally posted by milefile
Gay pride.
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Oh, or say... "Azn Pryde" or something like that. I don't know. I think there is some value in cultural identity. Perhaps there is appropriate to place some amount of value in family history as well.

For example, if I were the latest in a line of West Point graduates whose family has served the country going back five generations, I will probably feel a certain sense of pride in belonging to such a group. Did I earn this history? No. But can I carry on the family tradition in a way that honors the men before me? Yes. Is that worth something? Probably.

I am in fact, proud to be my father's son. I respect him, therefore I feel a sense of pride to be so closely associated with him. Perhaps that is an appropriate source of pride. I am making a conscious decision to respect who he is.


M
 
Pride based on the accomplishments and choices of others makes sense. But pride based on some inert inevitability seems to be rather hollow and cheap. It's like my saying I am proud of the fact that I beathe air.
 
Originally posted by milefile
But pride based on some inert inevitability seems to be rather hollow and cheap.
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Would you characterize your gay pride example as a inert inevitabilty? Maybe there is room for debate there.


M
 
There's always room for debate.

It irks me that the Mayor of the city of Phoenix declared some day in March to be "Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual, and Trans-gender Day", and they had a big "pride" parade. If being gay is not a choice, but rather, gays are born gay, then what is there to be proud of? I was born in September. Should I be proud of that?
 
when it comes to gay pride, i think people are using the word 'pride' as a sound bite as opposed to being ashamed of being gay...its not a direct antonym but then what is the opposite of ashamed?

i dont think anyone can be proud of circumstances that they have no control over.

i think feeling proud of yourself is a vulgar and egotistical feeling....being proud of the achievements of your children is another thing...like passing a test at school of you helped them study.
 
"Not ashamed." And this requires a holiday and a parade? I see the point I suppose. Is it just celebrating self-acceptance? I think that is a valid thing to be proud of especially since so many people haven't done it. But that's not what they call it. They call it gay pride.
 
Originally posted by milefile
If being gay is not a choice, but rather, gays are born gay, then what is there to be proud of?
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Am I proud to be hetero? Very happy to be perhaps, but not proud. I see your point.

But gay pride is a special circumstance. You're talking about a group of people maligned and sometimes brutalized in the past. Its a normal reaction to swing the other way (no pun intended) when mainstream society was against you for so long.

Is it shallow if a Native American is proud of his culture and wants to remind people that his culture florished here before European settlers took it away from him?


M
 
So then in the two situations you have just identified it would seem that "pride" is not really pride proper, but rather, an "equal and opposite reaction" type effect, a lashing out at oppression.
 
Originally posted by milefile
So then in the two situations you have just identified it would seem that "pride" is not really pride proper, but rather, an "equal and opposite reaction" type effect, a lashing out at oppression.
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Yea. Maybe in this case pride is a euphamism for righteous indignation. Kinda like right in this forum when we end up defending America against a seemingly never-ending horde of its critics.

Maybe sometimes pride is refusing to be put down. EDIT: or a re-affirmation of inherent values. Or in their case "I LIKE MEN, damnit".


M
 
Maybe the "oppressor", in his oppressing, has merely created an enemy that can actually overpower with the energy derived from oppression; it is all negative, of course, just the same ignorance tossed back from a different source. At the end of the day is is still all just hype and bias.
 
Originally posted by milefile
it is all negative, of course, just the same ignorance tossed back from a different source.
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It is? What is ignorant about refusing to feel bad about being gay?


M
 
Because one's sexuality is a personal issue and parading it down the street is in poor taste, at best.

If you keep reducing homosexuality until you can't anymore you end up with penises and vaginas, the primary sex traits. Being gay means you want to have sex with people of the same sex. And I don't like hearing about anyone's sex life, gay or not. While homosexuality itself is not offensive to me, the assumption that for gays to accept themselves, I must also, is. How is it different from homophobics needing gays to be closeted, oppressed, or eliminated to be comfortable with themselves?
 
Pride is often a big problem. If pride means "I'm better than you are" it turns into a big deal. Asian, Hispanic, and black pride often equals "suprior to white people who have no culture." The people who would say "no that's just not so, it's not an attack it's a celebration" are the same people who would see a white pride parade as saying "white people are superior to all other races". It's a bit of a double standard.

Gay pride is very similar. In many cases it means "we think we're better than heteros who are boring."

Now I'm cool with being happy with who you are. I'm fine with self-acceptance. But marching down the street yelling "gay pride" should be no more acceptible than marching down the street yelling "hetero pride". Same thing goes for race.

To have true acceptance - for the world to be color blind - for the world to truely accept homosexuals - they have to be so casually understood that it is not necessary to mention them.

Having a parade points out that you are different. Those people who would like the world not to notice that they are black should stop yelling it and stop insisting that black people need lower standards to get into colleges. If we're all the same, there should be NO distinctions, not even positive distinctions (which, by the way, always have implied negative connotations).

Edit: Same thing goes for feminists.
 
Originally posted by danoff


To have true acceptance - for the world to be color blind - for the world to truely accept homosexuals - they have to be so casually understood that it is not necessary to mention them.
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Well said. I am very ready for this.
 
I believe pride in country, state, neighbors and family, etc., stems not only from the propaganda one was exposed to, but also from life experiences. If one grows up with ethical, decent hard working people, he might be inclined to think the entire neighborhood, country, or whatever the case may be, is as good as his fraction of the population. Also, when one grows up in good surroundings, he may feel indebted to those around them; feeling they deserve his pride in them.
 
Originally posted by danoff
To have true acceptance - for the world to be color blind - for the world to truely accept homosexuals - they have to be so casually understood that it is not necessary to mention them.
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On one hand danoff, that sounds like a truly just notion. I agree to an extent.

But on the other hand, it makes the world a pretty dull place. If we were truly color blind, there'd be no reason to celebrate any cultural diversity at all. No St. Patrick's Day. No Chinese New Year. No Kwanzaa. Mardis Gras. Christmas.

Is there a difference between a parade to celebrate being gay and a parade to celebrate Thanksgiving?


M
 
Originally posted by ///M-Spec
On one hand danoff, that sounds like a truly just notion. I agree to an extent.

But on the other hand, it makes the world a pretty dull place. If we were truly color blind, there'd be no reason to celebrate any cultural diversity at all.


M
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Then you have to take the bad with the good. Everybody wants to simultaneously be different and yet part of a group.
 
Originally posted by milefile
Then you have to take the bad with the good. Everybody wants to simultaneously be different and yet part of a group.
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You can't do both? More specifically, is it a mistake to believe you can both be an individual and belong to a larger group at the same time?

I am an American. I am Chinese by heritage. I am also an individual. Can only one of these statement be correct?


M
 
It depends whom you ask. You can think of yourself in all three ways, but you can't expect anyone else to. Actually, you can expect whatever you want, just be ready for inevitable disappointment.
 
On one hand danoff, that sounds like a truly just notion. I agree to an extent.

But on the other hand, it makes the world a pretty dull place.
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I disagree. You can be proud of your heriatage and culture and not make it about race. In much the same way that french, german and american people are proud of their different cultures and yet are not distinguished because of skin color. Your example of thanksgiving is a good example of a cultural celebration that is color and sexuality blind.

Having a parade based on sexual orientation or skin color perpetuates homophobia and racism. It screams out to the world, we want to be treated differently. If I were a gay black man I would hate that gay parades existed and be even more strongly opposed to affirmative action - much as supreme court justice thomas is.
 
i agree with dan...gay pride marches are designed to draw attention to an alternative lifestyle but on the other they campaign for acceptance...slight contradiction there...stand out or blend in?

do we try and ignore their sexual orientation and treat them like everyone else or do we always acknowledge that they are different because the gay pride marches seem to suggest that its what they want?
 
Originally posted by danoff
I disagree. You can be proud of your heriatage and culture and not make it about race. In much the same way that french, german and american people are proud of their different cultures and yet are not distinguished because of skin color. Your example of thanksgiving is a good example of a cultural celebration that is color and sexuality blind.

Having a parade based on sexual orientation or skin color perpetuates homophobia and racism. It screams out to the world, we want to be treated differently. If I were a gay black man I would hate that gay parades existed and be even more strongly opposed to affirmative action - much as supreme court justice thomas is.
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Wait a second. A parade celebrating sexual orientation is nessessarily an act that calls for differential treatment.

But a parade celebrating, say the birthday of a religous patron of a particular national group does not? Or does it? They're Irish. I am not. They want to call attention to that distinction.

Going by your logic, the St. Patrick's Day parade should offend Irish people??? It would cause me to hate them? What?

One group says "I'm gay. Love me." The other says "I'm Irish. Love me." I do not fall into either of these groups. They seek to differentiate themselves from me. What is the difference here?


M
 
Are the Irish trying to legislate a society that is more beneficial to them as Irish? Are the Irish throwing a parade for political purposes?

Have you ever heard anyone say "everybody is Irish on St Patricks day"? Have you ever heard anyone say "everybody is gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgendered on gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender day"? Are the Irish fighting for the right to marry?

At one time the Irish were quite hated in the US, but those days are long gone and I am fairly certain no amount of pride parades is to thank for it.
 
Agreed. St. Patricks day is a somewhat benign case because they have no political agenda. As far as I can tell the Irish are no longer trying to get people to see them as equals. Also, it is not really an exclusive group, you could consider yourself Irish simply because you became a citizen of Ireland. You wouldn't need to have been born there.
 

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