Prost wants F1 cars to use ethanol

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Although I found this at the BBC Brasil website I couldn't find it on the UK BBC, or any other English news website. So I'll just sum up the article.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/portuguese/reporterbbc/story/2007/02/070213_prost_etanol_dg.shtml

Alain Prost is currently the president of the Flex-Fuel Group, which promotes alternative fuels to gasoline. While he was in Lisbon yesterday selling the idea of ethanol cars over there, he said he's working with FIA about using ethanol on the F1 cars, and this would serve as an example to its spectators. According to him they've been talking about implementing this in 2010 or 2011, but he would like it to happen next year already. He also mentioned that in 1993 he won the championship with a Renault engine that used a fuel with 5% of ethanol.

So, what do you people think about this idea? Ethanol has been used as a fuel over here since the '80s. During the mid '90s, car companies stopped factoring ethanol fuelled (sp?) cars but a few years back they came back with it, now with engines that run on both ethanol and gasoline, the so-called "Flex".

The article mentioned that France has been using ethanol as a fuel too, but I haven't heard about any other countries over there using it.

Personally, I guess this would be do-able, although ethanol does a lower mileage than gasoline, which would require larger fuel tanks on the cars, or more pit-stops during the race.
 
FatAssBR
although ethanol does a lower mileage than gasoline, which would require larger fuel tanks on the cars, or more pit-stops during the race.
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And that's why the F1 teams wouldn't voluntarily use it. The bigger the fuel tank, the bigger the aerodynamic impact - fuel tank size varies between teams, and is always a compramise between aerodynamics and stint length. More pitstops would be an obvious no-no.

It's been used in the BTCC, with varying degrees of success.
 
I can't see it happening soon. Especially as all the engines are not to be tinkered with much for the next few seasons (Or is it just next?).

Ethanol isn't practical in many countries (The UK) as we just don't have the climate to produce it and importing it seems to defeat the point.

Roo
It's been used in the BTCC, with varying degrees of success.
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Wasn't it more of an 85% petrol 15% ethanol mix used in BTCC?
 
Ethanol stations are common place here in Sweden, and many people run their cars on gasoline/ethanol mixes.
STCC will start running on ethanol this season, and from next year that will be a forced rule.

I don´t see anything wrong with F1 running alternative fuels. I think that would hold some commercial value for F1.
 
Alternative fuels = good
Ethanol = bad

It's clear that F1 wants to adjust the focus of the sport slightly in the next several years to reduce waste heat and develop cleaner more energy efficient methods of propulsion - but ethanol is one of the least friendly fuels out there. Yes ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline, but that's only half the story. To produce ethanol you end up buring quite a lot of natural gas to process and distill it, and lots of diesel and petroleum based fertilizer and pesticide is used during the growing season. Then factor in the gas used by the farm machinery to harvest it and you're actually producing less fuel then you're spending and doing more damage to the environment in the process.

Honestly, after the engine freeze is lifted I think F1 should look into electric hybrid technology. I think that holds much more promise than fuel cells and hydrogen based economies. Getting a sport like F1 to help develop the technology might be the push or boost needed to get a greater number of mass produced electric or gas/electric hybrid vehicles into the minds of major auto manufacturers, and out on the road.

But as Team666 rightly points out, if the F1 does decide to change fuels it'll likely be because there's a lot of money trading hands and not because of its social relevance and potential impact.
 
Formula 1 = Solar 1 in the next decade.
 
Boundary Layer
Alternative fuels = good
Ethanol = bad

It's clear that F1 wants to adjust the focus of the sport slightly in the next several years to reduce waste heat and develop cleaner more energy efficient methods of propulsion - but ethanol is one of the least friendly fuels out there. Yes ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline, but that's only half the story. To produce ethanol you end up buring quite a lot of natural gas to process and distill it, and lots of diesel and petroleum based fertilizer and pesticide is used during the growing season. Then factor in the gas used by the farm machinery to harvest it and you're actually producing less fuel then you're spending and doing more damage to the environment in the process.
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But Hydrogen is no different, if anything Hydrogen probably requires more energy to produce, transport (safely) and store. But the thing about ethanol is that you are basically recycling carbon because the carbon that is produced should then be absorbed by the next harvest.


Honestly, after the engine freeze is lifted I think F1 should look into electric hybrid technology. I think that holds much more promise than fuel cells and hydrogen based economies. Getting a sport like F1 to help develop the technology might be the push or boost needed to get a greater number of mass produced electric or gas/electric hybrid vehicles into the minds of major auto manufacturers, and out on the road.
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But how would an electric hybrid work when the fundamentals of hybrid technology is that the electric motors are used for slow speeds. So apart from the start of the race, pit-stops and extremely slow corners, the car is infact burning more fuel as it struggles to carry the extra weight around.
 
ExigeExcel
But Hydrogen is no different, if anything Hydrogen probably requires more energy to produce, transport (safely) and store. But the thing about ethanol is that you are basically recycling carbon because the carbon that is produced should then be absorbed by the next harvest.
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I've seen/heard of materials that are like a 'hydrogen sponge' that allow it to be transported safely. I read an article about some old chemist that converted his Tercel (or Corolla?) to run off of hydrogen with such a fuel tank. I only wish I could now remember the name of the material.

But I'm not quick to jump on the hydrogen bandwagon either for the reasons you've identified, among others. Ammonia would be easier to transport and store, but for that you still rely on natural gas for the production.


But how would an electric hybrid work when the fundamentals of hybrid technology is that the electric motors are used for slow speeds. So apart from the start of the race, pit-stops and extremely slow corners, the car is infact burning more fuel as it struggles to carry the extra weight around.
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You're right.

I had been thinking that they could be used for aiding acceleration out of a corner since I view most tracks (except Monza, Indianapolis, and Fuji) as a series of slow/medium speed corners linked by short straights. So set a minimum fuel mileage figure to meet during the course of the race and some sort of management system could be designed to use the electrics to assist in powering cars out of turns, and then switch over to gas at higher rpms where the electrics torque and power start to peter out.

But getting an electric motor to operate efficiently at high rpm and generating say... 400-500hp with enough stored energy to last a race distance is probably no small feat (I really can't say... I should read up a bit more on electric motors).

Silly as it sounds, I hadn't even thought about the additional weight a hybrid system would entail.


I'm sure if the challenge were presented to them, the teams of engineers in F1 would all still build something blindingly fast. The Tesla is proof that you can get some performance out of electrics, so there is potential there. But it'd force many rule changes/additions to the formula though, not to mention a complete redesign of power plants and drivetrains, which would drive up costs - something the FIA has been trying to reduce.


/shrugs/
Dunno.
I now seem to be sitting on both sides of the fence in regards to this idea, after the points/questions you raised.
 
Boundary Layer
I've seen/heard of materials that are like a 'hydrogen sponge' that allow it to be transported safely. I read an article about some old chemist that converted his Tercel (or Corolla?) to run off of hydrogen with such a fuel tank. I only wish I could now remember the name of the material.
Click to expand...

If F1 went to any alternative fuel, I could see it being Hydrogen. Producing Hydrogen does not require natural gas either. Some nuclear reactors emit a cooling water hot enough to initiate high temperature electrolysis which would result in hydrogen. Using this method, we can produce Hydrogen fossil fuel-free.

But I'm not quick to jump on the hydrogen bandwagon either for the reasons you've identified, among others. Ammonia would be easier to transport and store, but for that you still rely on natural gas for the production.
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Those are issues, though.

I had been thinking that they could be used for aiding acceleration out of a corner since I view most tracks (except Monza, Indianapolis, and Fuji) as a series of slow/medium speed corners linked by short straights. So set a minimum fuel mileage figure to meet during the course of the race and some sort of management system could be designed to use the electrics to assist in powering cars out of turns, and then switch over to gas at higher rpms where the electrics torque and power start to peter out.
Click to expand...

I was thinking something similar to that

But getting an electric motor to operate efficiently at high rpm and generating say... 400-500hp with enough stored energy to last a race distance is probably no small feat (I really can't say... I should read up a bit more on electric motors).

Silly as it sounds, I hadn't even thought about the additional weight a hybrid system would entail.

I'm sure if the challenge were presented to them, the teams of engineers in F1 would all still build something blindingly fast. The Tesla is proof that you can get some performance out of electrics, so there is potential there. But it'd force many rule changes/additions to the formula though, not to mention a complete redesign of power plants and drivetrains, which would drive up costs - something the FIA has been trying to reduce.
Click to expand...

Transistor (or was it silicon?) technology can help with these problems. If you ditch batteries and go with this, you can get something that packs much more power per weight than a battery and the ability to charge/discharge extremely quickly. This means you could recharge your car during a pit stop.

Don't expect these to happen quickly either. I'm pretty sure these technologies are still several years down the road. Maybe add another year for design teams to sort out the way things now work. However, I think the switch will pay off if it is done sooner. F1 fan countries would be much quicker to adopt the new techs and the sponsors would have more money to support teams with.

I'm all for the swtich, as F1 is the leader in technology. I just hope they don't push it and wait about ten years. If they were to try another fuel, I would say diesel. Audi proved it can work, and it would hold F1 over for awhile.

On them using ethanol, keep in mind that Brazil is the world's leading producer of the stuff, expect them to be promoting it wherever possible. What is comes down to is that Prost's proposal is relative garbage.
 
Not sure if anyone else did this but in high school we made Ethanol from sugar water and yeast. Let it ferment and then we seperated the water from the ethanol. It was quite cool. Ever since then I've always had my eye on Ethanol. With the world running out of fuel, I think it would be a good start for manufacturers as well as their fuel suppliers, Shell, Mobil, Esso etc to showcase their plans and what better way than through F1.

If anyone loves cars (not just F1) search the web for diesel powered cars using used vegetable oil (filtered) to drive on.
 
How about diesel engines?

HAHA......

Actually didn't the Audi R10 in last years Le Mans run on diesel? Maybe its not such a stupid idea as I first thought.
 
Yes, the Audi R10s ran diesel, and did really quite well, proving that diesel can be used effectively in a race car.
 
Didn't the Indy cars use Methanol before, though?

a possible advantage would be in compression: Alchy allows some insane compression ratios without detonation. of course, F1 cars probably already use some of the highest octane gasoline in production, so not much of an advantage there.

It could make races more interesting, with more pitstops. that means more pit strategy.
 
Yes, IndyCars used to run on methanol. The IndyCar Series began transitioning to ethanol last year by running a 90% methanol/10% ethanol mix. This year, IndyCars will run on 100% ethanol.

Champ Cars (aka IndyCars before the Champ Car/IndyCar split in 1996) have been running on methanol for a while. Champ Cars are still running on methanol today.
 

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