R18 is way too slow - Real Life 2011 Le Mans - 3m 25.289s /GT6 3m 34, --

[TurismoBad]

It's impossible to do a lap so quick in the game. (3m 25.289ss - 2011 R18 TDI record)

The car is 8-9 whooping seconds slower than in real life. I used the soft racing tires and praiano tune.

Dry track.

I managed 3m 34 ish - no aids apart ABS-1. We're talking stock car here - just like in real life.

edit:

It might actually be possible to do 3m 25.xxx but if it is please do it, show the tune and post reply data (no SRF, no oil change) because I don't think it can be done.

 

[Fuzzi0n]

It's impossible to do a lap so quick in the game. (3m 25.289ss - 2011 R18 TDI record)

The car is 8-9 whooping seconds slower than in real life. I used the soft racing tires and praiano tune.

Dry track.

I managed 3m 34 ish - no aids apart ABS-1. We're talking stock car here - just like in real life.

I've compared it at a few tracks. I'm not a slow driver, but it's still around LMP2 pace rather than the cars actual pace. Downforce and mechanical grip simply aren't as good in the game as on the real car which is a bit of a shame.

 

[jubin123]

in order to eliminate difference between driver's skills.

just find the real r18 top speed,and which specific place did it reach this speed.

if you are faster,it's just the skill difference

if you are slower,its' car difference

 

[CarBastard]

in order to eliminate difference between driver's skills.

just find the real r18 top speed,and which specific place did it reach this speed.

if you are faster,it's just the skill difference

if you are slower,its' car difference

That has little if anything to do with the actual difference in performance. The R10 may have been just as fast in GT5 as it was in real life, but in the corners it was ABSOLUTELY HORRID. The R18 is much better in corners than the old heavy R10, but it's still nothing compared to it's real life counterpart. The difference between the virtual car and the real car when talking about the Audi LMPs has always been so great that it begs the question, does PD even get to drive the car or sit in the passenger seat at least? Do they have an actual test driver for QA?

Pushing the virtual divide...yeah by making it more notorious...

 

[Voodoovaj]

Every likes to think that each car was painstakingly recreated in GT. Truth is, there is one system. All cars are adjusted according to the parameters in that system. It can be close, but it's not going to be pinpoint accurate.

 

[TurismoBad]

Every likes to think that each car was painstakingly recreated in GT. Truth is, there is one system. All cars are adjusted according to the parameters in that system. It can be close, but it's not going to be pinpoint accurate.

I believe they can easily make it stop quicker and corner faster without sacrificing acceleration and top speed - otherwise they will be limiting themselves in their own physics engine. I don't think that's the case.

Yes there are certain global rules that applies to all cars but each car also posses it's own adjustable parameters.

 

[Mini Stiggy]

I'll see what lap time I get later, but they probably have an amazing setup on the car(absolutely no offense meant to Praiano, he's an amazing tuner), and they are some of the fastest in the world.

Edit: Post #1,000

 

[Voodoovaj]

I believe they can easily make it stop quicker and corner faster without sacrificing acceleration and top speed - otherwise they will be limiting themselves in their own physics engine. I don't think that's the case.

Yes there are certain global rules that applies to all cars but each car also possess it's own adjustable parameters.

But the assumption is that horsepower, torque, and aero have the same outcomes as in real life. It doesn't. It needs more power in game to be on par with reality in terms of lap time, but it's more important that the stats are the same.

It's also impossible to match the setup. Race dampers have 30-40 levels of damping adjustment, tire pressure, tire compound, tire construction, etc, etc, ad nauseum. What does "race hard" reflect? Most likely a generic representation of hard compound tires. It isn't specifically Le Mans spec Michelin hards, or whatever the options were for them at the time.

AND even if you had all that, it would still be a tall order to make a system on the PS3 that can be perfectly accurate without a bunch of special case scenarios in the code.

...and you'd have to be a works team level driver on top of all of that.

 

[Mini Stiggy]

Got at 30.1 on TT mode with ABS 1, still time to be found though. I feel that with a rock solid setup(which a professional racing team of that caliber most likely has), and the skill of a professional racing driver, it would do a 25.

 

[TurismoBad]

Got at 30.1 on TT mode with ABS 1, still time to be found though. I feel that with a rock solid setup(which a professional racing team of that caliber most likely has), and the skill of a professional racing driver, it would do a 25.

I guess you're right. (and I was wrong)

Perfect set-up, wheel (I use DS3) + perfect lap might just produce a time in 3m 25.xxx

I'll see how much can I shave.

 

[Sier_Pinski]

The problem with the lap times of @TurismoBad (and likely @Ittybitty Stigy as well) is that they used tires with fantasy-style grip (racing soft). I'm pretty sure that the R18 IRL uses the more realistic "racing hard" tires. Unless I'm wrong in that department, it's likely an issue with how GT6 simulates that particular car's overall resistance.

 

[Mini Stiggy]

The problem with the lap times of @TurismoBad (and likely @Ittybitty Stigy as well) is that they used tires with fantasy-style grip (racing soft). I'm pretty sure that the R18 IRL uses the more realistic "racing hard" tires. Unless I'm wrong in that department, it's likely an issue with how GT6 simulates that particular car's overall resistance.

Yeah, I used softs. But your right, those are most likely not of the same grip levels of the actual tires used, and unless we had the exact same tires, it would be impossible to come to conclusions.

 

[Izzyracer97]

Your problem is you used praianos tune. Yes the tune is good for people who know nothing about tuning but if you leave the car completely stock and take off all of the down force the car is perfect

 

[ONEEYEMONSTaR]

Slower straight speed, but fast in and out of the corners which makes up for that.

 

[Mini Stiggy]

Slower straight speed, but fast in and out of the corners which makes up for that.

Nope, max downforce is not fastest at Sarthe.

 

[ONEEYEMONSTaR]

Nope, max downforce is not fastest at Sarthe.

My Anniversary R18 right around the stock setting with a good tune. Anything less and I get a little loose in the corners. Haven't yet used the non-anniversary car as yet though?

 

[Mini Stiggy]

My Anniversary R18 right around the stock setting with a good tune. Anything less and I get a little loose in the corners. Haven't yet used the non-anniversary car as yet though?

It's going to get looser with less downforce no matter what version if the car. At Sarthe, the key to wining is finding the perfect balance of downforce. What downforce are you running?

 

[TurismoBad]

Welp I tried some other LMPs and different tunes for R18. I also watched an onboard with telemetry.

I can safely say that R18 is indeed too slow while other LMPs are often..too quick. (R10 for example) If you can do 3'25 in stock R18 in GT6 without SRF you're a GOD.

In RL R18 enters Porsche chicanes at 250km/h and don't lift thru first left sweep. It also does 325 on Mulsanne.

You just can't do that in the game.

It also stops much faster and accelerate to 300km/h much faster in RL.

Also please - no theories. If you think it's a matter of tuning and good driving - please do it and provide replay data.

 

[Dready1984]

No theories here. But I believe when you boot up the game, the disclaimer states that cars performance, handling, colours and shapes may be different from its real life counter part (cant remember the exact wording).

 

[Vagabond]

It is the car that is wrong. Even with minimum downforce, the stock car doesn't top 200mph on the Mulsanne straight - the real car topped out at ~205mph. It is possible, through tuning, to get close to the performance of the real car but of course it should be like that 'out of the box'. Slightly baffling anomaly but this is nothing new with Gran Turismo.

 

[TurismoBad]

No theories here. But I believe when you boot up the game, the disclaimer states that cars performance, handling, colours and shapes may be different from its real life counter part (cant remember the exact wording).

Oh come on with this disclaimer stuff - PD as well Turn10 and every other sim creator are striving for realistic recreation of the cars and we as users expect the cars to be recreated accurately. If by any chance anyone from PD takes notices of the R18 they will adjust it in the next update.

Otherwise 4x4 and MR cars wouldn't have any adjustments post-launch. They saw it's wrong and fixed it.

You're misunderstanding a legal disclaimer to avoid being sued by crazy people with reality - and the reality is PD tries to make cars as real as possible both handling and visual wise.

Despite the disclaimer it is perfectly fine to criticize whole groups (MR/RR/FR) or specific cars like R18.

 

[ULTRAVIOLENZZ]

It is the car that is wrong. Even with minimum downforce, the stock car doesn't top 200mph on the Mulsanne straight - the real car topped out at ~205mph. It is possible, through tuning, to get close to the performance of the real car but of course it should be like that 'out of the box'. Slightly baffling anomaly but this is nothing new with Gran Turismo.

I agree. I can only recreate that top speed in the Joest version with Low RPM Turbo installed. The car really is the problem. I hope they fix it.

 

[Fgame]

Why don't you just give it the oil change..

 

[Vagabond]

Why don't you just give it the oil change..

That's it! 15 years playing GT and I never thought of that...

Changing the oil, with minimum downforce and correct transmission settings and you top out on Mulsanne at about 195mph. Did you even test this before making the supposition that we're all stupid?

 

[KMguiler]

Ok so first I would like to say that I am new to GTPlanet... On that note, however, I am NOT new to GT. I have been playing since the first GT came out way back when. Since that time I have notice all the things that everyone has mentioned in this discussion as well as the points made in other discussions as well. What I would like to offer is this...

In all my years of racing in GT I have NEVER "tuned" any of my cars except for some mods that I put on to enhance the output of my cars. Having said that... I try to keep my cars as stock as possible. I don't mess with tranny settings, downforce settings... None of it.

I understand that a lot of these cars aren't perfect like RL, but it comes down to how much effort it would take to make PERFECT set up for a car in virtual reality to MATCH a car in REALITY.

In RL, racing teams invest YEARS in R&D for that perfect lap at Sarthe. Not to mention that these teams have YEARS of experience racing at Sarthe. For a gamer to come up and criticize PD for "screwing" them out of a few seconds on a lap is just ridiculous.

If you want to be as real as possible go race for real. Spend the hours grinding on a track to get that perfect lap. I race in virtual reality because I don't race on a track anymore. It's fun. It's FOR fun.

I think PD does a pretty darn good job of replicating the reality of a lot of these cars. But I don't expect them to have the ability to go out and test ECERY SINGLE CAR they have on the game. I mean let's think for a second about how impossible it would be for PD to get some seat time in a R18. Then let's think about how much MORE impossible it would be for them to even have a lap at a circuit like Sarthe...

I just don't think it's possible to make it 100% real.

And one more thing. Could PD ask for numbers from these teams to better match them? Of course! Although I'm pretty sure none of those teams would throw their R&D towards a gaming company. It's a guarded set of numbers that they don't want to get out. It's their livelihood. What they do to make their cars the best is quite cutthroat. So roll all this around before making crazy claims about how PD is ripping you off. Please.

 

[TurismoBad]

Ok so first I would like to say that I am new to GTPlanet... On that note, however, I am NOT new to GT. I have been playing since the first GT came out way back when. Since that time I have notice all the things that everyone has mentioned in this discussion as well as the points made in other discussions as well. What I would like to offer is this...

In all my years of racing in GT I have NEVER "tuned" any of my cars except for some mods that I put on to enhance the output of my cars. Having said that... I try to keep my cars as stock as possible. I don't mess with tranny settings, downforce settings... None of it.

I understand that a lot of these cars aren't perfect like RL, but it comes down to how much effort it would take to make PERFECT set up for a car in virtual reality to MATCH a car in REALITY.

In RL, racing teams invest YEARS in R&D for that perfect lap at Sarthe. Not to mention that these teams have YEARS of experience racing at Sarthe. For a gamer to come up and criticize PD for "screwing" them out of a few seconds on a lap is just ridiculous.

If you want to be as real as possible go race for real. Spend the hours grinding on a track to get that perfect lap. I race in virtual reality because I don't race on a track anymore. It's fun. It's FOR fun.

I think PD does a pretty darn good job of replicating the reality of a lot of these cars. But I don't expect them to have the ability to go out and test ECERY SINGLE CAR they have on the game. I mean let's think for a second about how impossible it would be for PD to get some seat time in a R18. Then let's think about how much MORE impossible it would be for them to even have a lap at a circuit like Sarthe...

I just don't think it's possible to make it 100% real.

And one more thing. Could PD ask for numbers from these teams to better match them? Of course! Although I'm pretty sure none of those teams would throw their R&D towards a gaming company. It's a guarded set of numbers that they don't want to get out. It's their livelihood. What they do to make their cars the best is quite cutthroat. So roll all this around before making crazy claims about how PD is ripping you off. Please.

No one is making any claims here - just providing feedback to make the game better. Your defense post is unnecessary. This is no different than previous threads about MR cars - which was later addressed by PD in a patch.

Telemetry lap of R18 are available on YouTube - cost to watch 0 $.

 

[ONEEYEMONSTaR]

It's going to get looser with less downforce no matter what version if the car. At Sarthe, the key to wining is finding the perfect balance of downforce. What downforce are you running?

Have moved on from the R18, even though I figured out my slow speed issue with this car and it's my fastest @274mph to date... I have faster better handling cars now.

 

[Vagabond]

If you want to be as real as possible go race for real. Spend the hours grinding on a track to get that perfect lap.

Did quite a bit of that before GT even came out (the first one that is) but GT is cheaper and less dangerous.

I think PD does a pretty darn good job of replicating the reality of a lot of these cars. But I don't expect them to have the ability to go out and test EVERY SINGLE CAR they have on the game.

Yeah they've done a pretty good job on the whole. The R18 is not just 'any' car though is it..? Its the Le Mans winning car and pretty iconic so really should be one of many that maybe should have got the 'real' treatment. 10mph down on top speed with stock settings is just poor.

I spent the best part of a year (not full time of course) developing car physics setups for the 2009 F1 regs on rFactor - tyres, engines, aero and suspension. I won't pretend it was a perfect simulation but it was certainly close in performance to what you saw during the 2009 F1 season. Top speeds, apex speeds, g-forces, acceleration, tyre temps etc... I used Motec to fine tune things and ended up with a good approximation. That's me, on my own, with £0 budget and only the TV footage and publicly available information as a data source. I seemed to get closer to reality than PD have in many cases, so your argument is redundant.

I didn't see anyone claim to have been ripped off for this reason either. We all love GT and many (like myself) have been there from the beginning. Its not a 'love is blind' relationship though and this is another clear example of a bizarre anomalous departure from reality that seems to go against the philosophy that Kazanori San developed GT to encompass.