Race cars vs Road cars: How is their performance so close?

[warp9engage]

After having played other simulators and noticing the large gap between road cars and race cars, I've begun to wonder about a thing in Forza: does a Pagani Zonda Cinque or Bugatti Veyron Super Sport really belong against a Ferrari 458 GTE and an Bentley Continental GT3? Shouldn't the latter cars be substantially quicker? Or maybe I should ask, what do they do to the road cars/race cars for them to so balanced or even more/less competitive with each other?

 

[BoneSawTX]

My experience is the road cars don't have much of a chance, unless it's on Classic Le Mans.

 

[VXR]

Given the performance envelope between a top end hyper car and dedicated race car is minimal, in a straight line there'd be very little in it. Cornering should be an issue and weight of course, but on somewhere with long straights, the race car advantage in those areas is minimised.

 

[warp9engage]

Shouldn't the more specialized tires and aerodynamics work in favor of the race cars more? Are these aspects being modeled accurately?

 

[VXR]

On a straight? Something like the Veyron will likely be as quick as most race cars. It's not like 20 years ago where road cars were largely modest in power output. Today you have cars like the Merc AMG45 that's more powerful than the BTCC version.

 

[warp9engage]

Not on a straight, we're talking on a lap of the average road circuit. On a drag race, the road car winning would not be surprising, considering the vast amounts of power the top tear ones have nowadays.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Shouldn't the more specialized tires and aerodynamics work in favor of the race cars more? Are these aspects being modeled accurately?

Aerodynamics aren't going to help you in the straights. They're going to only diminish your overall top speed, also Race cars are restricted in power and speed. A GT3 cars at full speed is 190-200, a Veyron doens't live with in the realm of racecar rules.

Not on a straight, we're talking on a lap of the average road circuit.

Well post up some lap times, that can be analyzed.

 

[warp9engage]

Well post up some lap times, that can be analyzed.

I don't have the lap-times with me right now and I'm not certain of the best method for myself to obtain them. My question comes from the way classes are organized now in the Forza games. Before, the R classes were reserved for race-ready cars but now, the R class has mixed more with the road cars and I'm just not sure if they belong there. When I asked the question originally, I was looking for other people's experiences, because they are likely to have a lot more game time in Forza 6 than I do. Actually, I want my thoughts about the game to be proven wrong.

 

[Nielsen]

Like others have suggested, I think the race cars generally have a considerable advantage in terms of grip and aerodynamics. That's not to say that there aren't some very capable and competitive road cars.

You need to keep two things in mind. On the one hand, many of the road cars in the game are top of the line performance versions. On the other hand, race cars usually require tuning aimed at maximizing potential on the track you're going to drive.

 

[UKMikey]

Are these road cars which have been fully optimised with race parts, or just driven stock?

 

[ImaRobot]

As it's been said, I've not noticed any road car that can achieve what a full bred race car can achieve in the curves. The straights are a different story as the aerodynamics and restrictions on race cars usually severely limit it in that case.

 

[warp9engage]

Are these road cars which have been fully optimised with race parts, or just driven stock?

I'm asking stock vs stock.

 

[PJTierney]

Race cars have an inherent advantage in terms of how their aerodynamics are modeled.

If you look at leaderboards for R/900 you'll only see road cars on the "missile" circuits like Daytona and Road America. The Ultima GTR is the default choice with the Lykan Hypersport also being good.

At any circuit that requires significant braking/cornering ability the track toys (Ariel Atom, Radical SR8 etc.) and race cars will win out, with the 1970s Grand Prix cars dominating almost everywhere.

 

[Nielsen]

I'm asking stock vs stock.

As I implied above, race cars are by default designed to be tuned. To consider them stock is like accepting their default setup as sufficient for any track. Most road cars can't be tuned by default (at least not to comparable extent), so it's more like stock road cars vs. tunable race cars if you want to expose the differences.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

I'm asking stock vs stock.

As I implied above, race cars are by default designed to be tuned. To consider them stock is like accepting their default setup as sufficient for any track. Most road cars can't be tuned by default (at least not to comparable extent), so it's more like stock road cars vs. tunable race cars if you want to expose the differences.

First of all, I generally agree with @Nielsen here.

BUT

To answer @warp9engage properly, you'd have to discount the inherent adjustability of the racing cars and just run everything as it comes out of the box, with the 'Force Stock Upgrades and Tuning' option enabled.

If you were to do that, I suspect that most of the time, most people would be faster in the racing cars on most tracks, within a given PI range. I think the road cars end up much higher than they really ought to in PI because of how fast they are on the long straights. By and large, they have no chance of keeping up in the corners or on the brakes.

At a track like the Daytona 24 Hour Course or Monza, you might see some of them put up a fight, but anywhere with meaningful technical sections or only short straights, it won't be much of a contest. The race cars brake so much later and can (generally) put the power down so much better, on short tracks and between corners they're insane. Stuff like the Cinque or the P1 ar very good for street cars, but they can't compete with the tires and mammoth downforces on display from the proper GTs.


Now, saying all that, I think it's actually fairly reasonable to expect something like the P1 or the TheFerrari to come close to (or maybe outdo) something like a GT3 car. Modern racing cars are so incredibly restricted in so many ways, and road cars largely aren't. For example, the active aero on the P1 helps a lot with braking and lowers itself to reduce drag at high speed- a GT3 car has a fixed wing that does none of that.
Add on to that the restrictions on engines, and it's not surprising that the very top strata of road cars are capable of outdoing things like GT3 cars. They're making almost double the power, have advanced hybrid-AWD systems, are close to as light (if not lighter, class minimum weights and such), and can make use of the bleeding edge of active aerodynamics.
When you think about it, the only thing the GT car really has going for it are the slicks.

Does anyone really thing that the P1GTR isn't easily faster than a current GT car? And yeah, that's a good bit different than the P1, but it's not that different. Throw some slicks on a P1 and you're well on towards getting there.

 

[gladbecker82]

I did some testing on Silverstone National lately - Ferrari F40, Toyota Supra (98) , McLaren F1 and set them all to 790 Power Rating.

The laptimes were extremely close with all being in the 58 sec region.

Then I tested the Huracan Super Trofeo with 833 PR and it was 2 sec faster. That's alot for such a short lap and I think it's a reasonable difference.

What I noticed the most tho is simply that the race cars are much easier to get to the limit while the road cars need much testing of brake points etc.

Conclusion - its easier handling that gives the race cars a heads up. But on a track that demands high speed road cars like the F1 would smoke the GT3 class completely

 

[Nielsen]

I did some testing on Silverstone National lately - Ferrari F40, Toyota Supra (98) , McLaren F1 and set them all to 790 Power Rating.

The laptimes were extremely close with all being in the 58 sec region.

Then I tested the Huracan Super Trofeo with 833 PR and it was 2 sec faster. That's alot for such a short lap and I think it's a reasonable difference.

What I noticed the most tho is simply that the race cars are much easier to get to the limit while the road cars need much testing of brake points etc.

Conclusion - its easier handling that gives the race cars a heads up. But on a track that demands high speed road cars like the F1 would smoke the GT3 class completely

What do you mean by easy handling? Did you put race tyres and aero kits on the road cars you upgraded? Did you tune any of these cars?

 

[gladbecker82]

What do you mean by easy handling? Did you put race tyres and aero kits on the road cars you upgraded? Did you tune any of these cars?

Yes I did tune those cars to have them at an even playing field. Race Tires.

Easier handling means what I said - the race cars can be pushed much easier to their limit without taking risk of missing a braking point for example. They are very consistent. h

The Road Cars demand more patience and skill from the player to get the best results

 

[Nielsen]

Yes I did tune those cars to have them at an even playing field. Race Tires.

I'm curious how big a difference you would see if you upgraded and tuned the Huracan road car to match the Super Trofeo. Anyway, I believe your previous conclusion saying that race cars are easier to handle is rushed and generalized simply by using the Huracan Super Trofeo as a measure for race cars. Some race cars in the game can be a real handful in the wrong hands, even some of the modern ones such as the Bentley GT3 or the Porsche LMP2.

Easier handling means what I said - the race cars can be pushed much easier to their limit without taking risk of missing a braking point for example. They are very consistent.

I don't think that's correct and I believe consistency comes down to the driver. Also, I'm not sure why you make this point when your comparison used road cars upgraded into race cars rather than stock road cars. All the cars you mentioned should be far removed from their road car origins if they were, as you said, matched in an even field against the Huracan Super Trofeo. Then again, how even is the comparison when you upgraded the road cars to 790 vs. 833 for the Huracan?

The Road Cars demand more patience and skill from the player to get the best results

If you mean skill and patience in terms of transforming road cars into race cars, then there are definitely more things to consider than tuning some default race car. Otherwise I think your statement is too generalized. Cars of any type will require skill in order to maximize potential. If some car happens to require adaption, or patience, then that comes down to whatever the player is most or least comfortable with. For example, I was less consistent driving my first few miles in the 300ZX IMSA race car than I was driving most road cars matching its performance.

 

[TonyJZX]

Forza doesnt really model durability.

A race car will put up with 100 laps, 200 laps, the Nurburgring 24hr. Does anyone truly believe that any road car, with no prep or even minimal race prep, would put up with any race condition abuse.

I agree with the consistency part on the whole. In the STCC DTM V8 supercars they feel like their performance is consistent from 0-200mph.

As people have said, race cars conform to certain rules. Many of them portrayed in Forza top out at around 200mph.

Obviously they would not see which way a Koeniggegg went.

 

[SlyNine]

For the most part, those race cars would wipe the floor with those road cars. In Forza. But it does depend on the track. The PI system has to account for a wide range of conditions, I wouldn't put to much weight into it. I mean, race a Camaro against the BAC on sonoma raceway and see what happens. Or even a tract like silverstone. You'll be seeing tail lights.

 

[VXR]

I'd wager the BAC against a race car is a fairer comparison than against a Camaro. It's built closer to a race car than your average monocoque passenger car after all, so it already has the track car advantages that negate the higher top speeds of the fastest road cars anywhere except the straights.

It's funny how the performance envelope is so narrow now. Audi TTs sub-4.0 seconds to sixty, was the work of tuners ten years ago and now it's the stock factory performance.

 

[SlyNine]

I'd wager the BAC against a race car is a fairer comparison than against a Camaro. It's built closer to a race car than your average monocoque passenger car after all, so it already has the track car advantages that negate the higher top speeds of the fastest road cars anywhere except the straights.

It's funny how the performance envelope is so narrow now. Audi TTs sub-4.0 seconds to sixty, was the work of tuners ten years ago and now it's the stock factory performance.

That's my point to the OP. "Or maybe I should ask, what do they do to the road cars/race cars for them to so balanced or even more/less competitive with each other?"

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Like any game that tries to balance cars with a PI-like system, there's going to be outliers, as the ratings are based on an overall performance across the huge variety of tracks. Race cars have incredible grip in turns, and the downforce advantage shows itself most in high-speed stuff. The quick corners at Silverstone, for example, or the esses at the beginning of COTA: take a race car there, and it'll take huge bites out of a road car's lead.

But go anywhere with long straights, like Road America or either of the Daytona non-ovals, and power rules. It's manifested itself quite powerfully in the MLG tournament: with certain obvious cars banned in S-Class (the Mono, X-Bow, Formula Mazda, etc), people have resorted to a handful of cars that are best suited to certain tracks. Some race cars do well, like the Ferrari BB/LM at Prague, and some cars do well because they follow that car's rough stats.

Other tracks favour acceleration, and you'll find the Alfa 33 dominate there. For pure handling, few cars compare with the Lancia Beta race car. It's an utter monster around Lime Rock, because its particular skill set is best-suited to that track's layout. Then there's the power tracks, which favour the utterly nuts V12-swapped Esprit. It's a hateful thing to drive, but with nearly 1200hp, nothing else can touch it on the straights. I've got a Saleen S7 that can almost keep up (the Lotus driver needs to be on their top form), but due to its more racer-like basic structure, it still handles reasonably well despite the lack of downforce mixed with 760hp.

Modern GT3-spec cars are so limited, that now more than ever, modern hypercars can most certainly out-perform them in select aspects.

 

[Scaff]

Now, saying all that, I think it's actually fairly reasonable to expect something like the P1 or the TheFerrari to come close to (or maybe outdo) something like a GT3 car. Modern racing cars are so incredibly restricted in so many ways, and road cars largely aren't. For example, the active aero on the P1 helps a lot with braking and lowers itself to reduce drag at high speed- a GT3 car has a fixed wing that does none of that.
Add on to that the restrictions on engines, and it's not surprising that the very top strata of road cars are capable of outdoing things like GT3 cars. They're making almost double the power, have advanced hybrid-AWD systems, are close to as light (if not lighter, class minimum weights and such), and can make use of the bleeding edge of active aerodynamics.
When you think about it, the only thing the GT car really has going for it are the slicks.

Does anyone really thing that the P1GTR isn't easily faster than a current GT car? And yeah, that's a good bit different than the P1, but it's not that different. Throw some slicks on a P1 and you're well on towards getting there.

Very unlikely given that a P1 didn't beat a BTCC Focus around Silverstone, with the same driver in both and the Focus running in traffic.



When Autosport did a lap speed comparison of just about every race series back in March (with F1 the fastest and benchmark) GT3 was 128.721 and BTCC being 140.868. Given that a GT3 would be significantly faster than a P1 (and you can't just throw a set of race slicks on a road car and expect its suspension to last too long - it will destroy the bushes very quickly and throw out the geometry as it does so).

 

[Speedster911]

After having played other simulators and noticing the large gap between road cars and race cars, I've begun to wonder about a thing in Forza: does a Pagani Zonda Cinque or Bugatti Veyron Super Sport really belong against a Ferrari 458 GTE and an Bentley Continental GT3? Shouldn't the latter cars be substantially quicker? Or maybe I should ask, what do they do to the road cars/race cars for them to so balanced or even more/less competitive with each other?

In a nutshell:

Race cars will destroy the stock version on a closed circuit due to the race-ready chassis, handling, advanced aero etc.
The road version can overtake it in a drag race, only as long as there's enough road. As one of the fellas pointed out - the race cars have restrictions imposed on it to make it perform really well within the performance bracket and racing class. It has nothing at all to do with being better than the road version in every way possible.

Hope that seals the deal.